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  1. #41
    Hmm, I guess I'll to venture back into southsun cove to see some of the new events. I got my backpack on the first day (the tentacle one) and haven't really spent any time in there since.

  2. #42
    What i'm trying to say is that GW2 has a cool leveling system and you won't get bored while leveling, BUT when you get to lvl 80 you'll get bored as hell
    So... dinamic events, jumping puzzles and dungeons are cool during 1-79, but they all suddenly become boring when you hit lvl 80?

  3. #43
    He obviously meant some will get tired of doing events, jump puzzles and dungeons beyond level 80. Mileage may vary, natch.

  4. #44
    I sure hope they add in some more permanent mini-games, like they promised at launch. I kind of liked the crab one after a while but I'd like some variability in these games. Plus it would be something extra for those to participate in if you get bored of events, JP's, dungeons, WvW, and pvp.

  5. #45
    Endgame as a point of design is continued progression after an end point has been reached.
    And how isn't that a flawed concept? If there's progression after a point, that point is not an "end point".

    You guys are evaluating the level cap too much. There's no connection between "the game must give me a completely different challenge after I hit the level cap" and "this game is not fun". If WoW raid were a requirement to hit the level cap rather than be an "end game", the game would still be fun. If WoW had no levels and you were able to raid as soon as you bought the game, it would still be fun. Level is just a number.

    He obviously meant some will get tired of doing events, jump puzzles and dungeons beyond level 80. Mileage may vary, natch.
    Any game can make a person tired. I have a friend that got tired of playing WoW before lvl 30. That's not an argument against GW2 in particular.
    Last edited by Hraklea; 2013-05-23 at 04:22 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Hraklea View Post
    And how isn't that a flawed concept? If there's progression after a point, that point is not an "end point".
    The end point can be any number of factors. Not necessarily "game over" or "fin".

    For example, in Guild Wars 1 there was an end point to the leveling process [level 20] and a definitive end point to each campaign. One could continue to the play the game afterward.

    The practice is also seen in single player games such as the wildly popular Elder Scrolls and in multiplayer games such as Borderlands and so forth.

    The only flaws in game design are those which are actual errors in programming [bugs] or contradictory rulesets. Video games are somewhat unique as a medium in that their devices are quantitative rather than qualitative.

    Though one's personal engagement is of course, open ended as befitting a qualitative experience.

    Any game can make a person tired.
    But he was talking about this particular game. In context, he was saying [as is his right] that the game gets dull after doing the same things past 80.

    Bit of a general statement from the user. Though it is pretty clear that he was simply saying one can get bored of such things. Where Guild Wars does not have a distinct progression phase after leveling.

    We can infer here that the statement is essentially; "Jp/Events were great while leveling. But I got bored of them after awhile."

    A relatively harmless and anecdotal piece of information. But there ya' go, so to speak.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-05-23 at 04:34 PM.

  7. #47
    The end point can be any number of factors. Not necessarily "game over" or "fin".
    It seems a trick to create the illusion of more content.

    The only flaws in game design are those which are actual errors in programming [bugs] or contradictory rulesets.
    I'm not sure what you meant by "contradictory rulesets", but there's a lot of possible mistakes to be done in game design that are not bugs. Not that all players care about, or even realize, those mistakes.

    A relatively harmless and anecdotal piece of information. But there ya' go, so to speak.
    Sounded like misinformation to me. But "anecdotal" is fine.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Hraklea View Post
    It seems a trick to create the illusion of more content.
    It can be! Such as in ARPGs in the style of dungeon crawlers. Where there is typically not much new content in the end game.

    However. In a game such as Everquest, end game is typically brand new content forevermore. 14 years worth to date, in fact.

    I'm not sure what you meant by "contradictory rulesets"
    Like, for example;

    If player has a gun, player can not move & shoot
    If player has a gun, player can move & shoot

    That would be 2 rules that contradict each other. They couldn't both be true without qualifiers.

    If player has a cannon, player can not move & shoot
    If player has a pistol, player can move & shoot

    but there's a lot of possible mistakes to be done in game design that are not bugs.
    Indeed, there are. Mistakes in rules.

    Games are expressly a hierarchical set of rules that constitute gameplay.

    Sounded like misinformation to me. But "anecdotal" is fine.
    His opinion & POV. Nothing more.

    No greater misinformation than one posting, "There is lots to do! You never get bored!"

  9. #49
    Like, for example;

    If player has a gun, player can not move & shoot
    If player has a gun, player can move & shoot
    This is not the only sort of mistake that can happen in game design. Flawed design is also a mistake. (like the already mentioned illusionary replayability)

    No greater misinformation than one posting, "There is lots to do! You never get bored!"
    Agreed.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganker View Post
    I was playing GW2 back in the day after the release and I've hit max level with one of my characters but then there wasn't a lot of things to do in the game that's why I've stopped playing it. Did end game change? Did they add more stuff to do at max level? Should I come back to the game and try it again?
    Install and find out. Unfortunately you've missed a lot of neat stuff as their content is often changing and temporary.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganker View Post
    I was playing GW2 back in the day after the release and I've hit max level with one of my characters but then there wasn't a lot of things to do in the game that's why I've stopped playing it. Did end game change? Did they add more stuff to do at max level? Should I come back to the game and try it again?
    If you did not find much to do that time, you will still be really disapointed, if you come back. Few things still missing from the game:
    1. Lust of power (gear/skill wise), your character does not progress physically. There is a way where you might have to grind 30-40 days just to get few stats higher gear called ascended gear(only trinkets and back are available now) but trust me its not worth the grind.

    2. Dull story, slow progression. I hate it when people applaud living story. It was the lamest story ever, all they did is released a 30 min task per month and a dungeon at the end. The dungeon was nice, but you get bored after doing it 2-3 times. Again, nothing rewarding.

    3. If you did not like Spvp at launch, you will not like it now, its the same, pretty blunt in my opinion.
    4. Fractal of the mist can be considered as end game, but it is really grindy and get boring fast. The reward is still not goo enough
    5. 8-bit dungeon is something I enjoyed for 10 min, but lots of people actually liked it. You can give it a try, but I doubt if its still in the game. Nothing serious about it, just a fungeon.
    6. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention Guild missions, editing now : yes there is also a new thing called guild mission, but nothing serious, you just have to gather your guildies and kill one target similar to champions you can find in Tyria. Still no co-ordination required, tank and spank, or just spank , then there are guild rush and other stuffs, you can check them out, still pretty lame imo. The rewards are little upgrade and pretty grindy as guild missions are weekly and you need lots of guild upgrades in order to get a mission.
    7. The biggest flaw is, community and Anet both are too casual friendly and proud of Gw2, so the future of the game will be same asalways, where you enjoy and have fun, (yes fun which is the most important thing in gw2 community) by jumping from cliff to cliff, dodging red circle, nuking gates, doing repetitive events and using auto-attacks. Why ? --->

    Almost everyone in-game agrees how lame utility skills are, some people are not even bothered to get all of them, also how many people actually use all the weapon skills or swap weapons to get optimum performance ? How would you even know whether they are doing it correctly or not ? lots of unanswered questions can be critical, but it is okay, since optimum performance out of skills does not make any difference in Gw2. It is based on finesse, where you have to time your dodge.

    The whole game is not rewarding enough, incentives are rather lame, so is the story and progression. But end of the day you get what you pay for, its a b2p model, so can't expect much right ?


    Important Note : WvWvW is still rocking, you can come back if you are a fan of MOBA, but if you want a real mmorpg, go for another game. The rpg side of Gw2 sucks imo.
    Last edited by Aroxisas; 2013-05-24 at 02:10 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Hraklea View Post
    This is not the only sort of mistake that can happen in game design. Flawed design is also a mistake. (like the already mentioned illusionary replayability)
    The other kind of mistake would be a programming error.

    Flawed design is contradictory rulesets. Such as in my example.

    The issue here is you are interpreting "flawed design" as a subjective, qualitative unit. It is not. Gameplay and design are quantitative. Absolutes regardless of individual opinion.

    For example, I can create a game with the illusion of replayability as a point of design. That is something we can do, absolutely. If within the DD/T of a game we achieve replayability or compulsive play then our DD/T for replayability is by logic, successful. This is a quantitative measure.

    Now if Billy doesn't enjoy the experience of play within the DD/T as outlined- that is a qualitative measure. An open end as it is termed in the industry. And while certainly important to Billy, it is of no object value to the goal of the design so long as the "illusion" we have placed in the DD/T serves the function of compulsive/replayable gameplay.

    Let's look at highly regard DD/T in implementation> Diablo 2.

    The game's replayability stems from what is an essentially pointless grind of a very slender part of content.

    When the game is played Ideally, one is repetitiously farming 1 or 2 bosses infinitely. Well past the point of completion [by logic to farm the boss we can kill the boss] and past the point of mastery [the plateau by which players no longer have advantage in time over completion].

    A player is "getting better" theoretically each successive run. Or more accurately, is better off each successive run. But the exercise is purely academic. It serves no useful end other than to create an infinity scale for reaplayability.

    This is a trick.

    The Schaefers, Brevik, Hedlund and company in designing D2 created the illusion of improvement forevermore. It was successful design- Diablo 2's compulsory play system kept the game running for more than a decade of Travencal and Baal runs. To no useful end, with no actual new content and for the sake of the compulsion alone.

    Again, Billy may not find the idea of grinding in Diablo 2 for decades of his life to gain a theoretical/mathematical advantage that has not practical end enjoyable or desirable.

    Though the DD/T of Diablo 2 can be said objectively to be a successful implementation of replayability using illusionary devices in the game system.

    This is a cohesive design, a non paradoxical DD/T. Still regard by many game designers as the Apex of the genre, franchise and genre defining game design.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    I sure hope they add in some more permanent mini-games, like they promised at launch.
    I love minigames. I don't know why they seem to be so foreign in MMOs since nearly every console RPG I've ever played is usually full of the things. Wintersday and to a lesser extent Halloween had some fun things to do, but yeah sadly nothing permanent.

  14. #54
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Someone on reddit datamined moa racing, should be coming soon.

    And there was a recent dev post about ppl wanting mini games would be very happy this summer
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Someone on reddit datamined moa racing, should be coming soon.

    And there was a recent dev post about ppl wanting mini games would be very happy this summer
    Will we get to breed our own moa's? *remembers chocobo breeding in FF7*

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    fractals and guild-missions would do that thing quite well

    If you ask me the whole concept of endgame is flawed, keep people playing by gating them via better items to do more of the difficult stuff. There is quite a bit new content every(!) month in gw2, last month we had the Molten Factory dungeon, nearly everyone (but the soloplayers) loved it, this month we get a karka-groupdungeon. None of these are gated by any means, you could do it as a lv.30 because you'll get upscaled.

    Those are temporary, yeah, but it was said that they probably come back somewhere in the future... maybe with more paths and other improvements. I won't argue against that temporary stuff anymore as long as they pump out new content in such small periods.
    I didn't know endgame meant vertical progression. They can 'gate' by difficulty alone, having a super hard dungeon raid that is long and requires real team work instead of autoattack quickness meta we have now would do the game good.
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta
    Oh my god, a company tries to put some lore flavor into the game mechanics, all is lost, whatever shall we do without a whole 1% of crit or haste.

    Quick, call Ukraine and Russia, let them know to put their conflict on standby because Touch of Elune is BULLSHIT!

  17. #57
    The issue here is you are interpreting "flawed design" as a subjective, qualitative unit.
    No, I'm not. The issue is that you think that what I consider a flawed design is subjective. It is not. False replayability is a bad design not because "Billy doesn't like it", it is bad because it doesn't add anything to the game but stucks you in a loop where you need to achieve a goal over and over to progress. (like WoW and D2)

    Though the DD/T of Diablo 2 can be said objectively to be a successful implementation of replayability using illusionary devices in the game system.
    Yes, it was successful in creating an illusion, but that's because "Billy" is not very smart, it is not because the game was well designed.
    Last edited by Hraklea; 2013-05-24 at 04:26 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Hraklea View Post
    No, I'm not. The issue is that you think that what I consider a flawed design is subjective.
    It is your subjective value/assessment.

    it is bad because it doesn't add anything to the game
    It adds replayability. It adds compulsion.

    If that is my goal as a designer and I have achieved it through whatever device- that is a successful implementation.

    Yes, it was successful in creating an illusion, but that's because "Billy" is not very smart, it is not because the game was well designed.
    This is your subjective, value judgement.

    I am sorry, but that is of no relevance to any one but you.

  19. #59
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    If I go more than a few days without running Fractals, I start getting itchy. The only cure is to get my best buds together for a run.

    I don't particularly need anything from them anymore (although I could fill out my fractal weapon collection for alts), the gold and lodestones are nice, but most importantly they are fun, they have interesting tactics and they stay challenging. I don't need gear progression to motivate me
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  20. #60
    This is your subjective, value judgement.
    There are two sorts of player: the ones that are tricked by a false sense of progress, and the ones that are not. A game with false progress only works with people that can be tricked, a game with true progress works for everyone, including people that can be tricked by a false sense of progress.

    True progress is better than illusionary progress, that's not subjective. If your goal was to create a bad game, and you did it, it doesn't mean it is a good game.

    It adds replayability.
    It adds false replayability. That's a flaw.
    Last edited by Hraklea; 2013-05-24 at 04:57 PM.

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