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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Redlokyldoreifanggore View Post
    2) It was the Horde and Alliance that allowed the sha to manifest out of complete control. We owed it to every pandarian race to cleanup a mess we made. Even the Yaungol and Mantid.
    That's.... not entirely true.

    The Shado-Pan failed in their duties given by the Celestials BEFORE the Horde/Alliance appeared on Pandaria. The Celestials had managed to trap 3 of the Sha. The Sha of Fear, Violence, and... Hatred?

    The first to escape was the Sha of Fear. Because of the Shado-Pan's failure, it escaped, and managed to infect the Empress of the Mantid. This had to have happened months before we arrived, because there are comments about the odd Mantid activity in Jade Forest.

    The Sha of Violence escaped later, but chose to Fester in the Shado-Pan Monastery, hence the change in the Shado-Pan throughout the questing experience.

    The Sha of Hatred escaped through Suna Sunstrike, and disappeared. Her death from not being willing to let go of her hate for Taran Zhu led to Taran Zhu blaming himself for what happened to her, and hating himself, allowing the Sha to have the power to overcome him when he returned to the Temple.

    The Shado-Pan are the fault for most of this. The ONLY thing the Alliance/Horde are at fault for is the Sha of Doubt that they broke the Celestial's Seal on in the Jade Forest. And even then, that was mostly the Hozen/Jinyu. Everything else was the fault of the Shado-Pan for failing in their duty. That is why they accepted the help when Taran Zhu became possessed, and why Taran Zhu accepted help in dealing with the Sha of Anger and Fear.

    It's all cleverly written to make it look like it's all the Alliance/Horde fault, but it's not.

    As for the actual topic, people need to grow up. Your warchief ordered the goblins to destroy a sacred Vale that you had to make an oath to PROTECT. Of course they're going to kick you out. The Pandaren are not Alliance or Horde allies. We are guests on Pandaria. Nothing more.
    Last edited by Myzou; 2013-05-24 at 01:01 PM.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Redlokyldoreifanggore View Post
    Lore-wise the Shado-Pan could've probably handled the Zandalari and prevented the reanimation of the Thunder King if they weren't dealing with mantid, yaungol, and sha (issues that wouldn't have arisen without us).
    I disagree. We're talking about a rather small but elite military organization versus the majority of trolls and mogu on all of Azeroth. I also think that the arrival of the Zandalari would have awakened the Sha, even if the Horde and Alliance hadn't done it first. All it took was one battle.
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  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
    The Sha of Hatred escaped, and disappeared. It re-appeared after the Alliance/Horde came, after it possessed Suna Sunstrike. This led to Taran Zhu blaming himself for what happened to her, and hating himself, allowing the Sha to have the power to overcome him when he returned to the Temple.
    Chronologically, the Townlong steppes take place after the Shado-Pan Monastery questline. Taran Zhu was possessed because of his hatred towards the Alliance and Horde, and the war they brought to the shores of Pandaria. It's why you see Shado-Pan outposts in Kun Lai go without reinforcements when you show up.

  4. #304
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    The first to escape was the Sha of Fear. Because of the Shado-Pan's failure, it escaped, and managed to infect the Empress of the Mantid. This had to have happened months before we arrived, because there are comments about the odd Mantid activity in Jade Forest.
    Is there any actual proof of this besides speculation? Because we know from other sources that the Sha were generally able to be handled before we arrived. It wasn't qualified until other players decided to.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynneiah View Post
    I thought the Shattering was responsible for the lowering of the mists?
    No the mists drop after Theramore and that is after Deathwing is killed. The cause of the mists disapearing is as of yet unrevealed. It could of been the Sha of Pride, it could of also been Wrathion for all we know.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-24 at 01:21 PM ----------

    Why am I not surprised that nobody seems to understand the lore of the Shado-pan and the Sha even though it is all explained in the 85-90 questing zones?

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Is there any actual proof of this besides speculation? Because we know from other sources that the Sha were generally able to be handled before we arrived. It wasn't qualified until other players decided to.
    If i remember well it is stated in the Dungeon Journal that the Sha of Fear became powerful enough to escape the Niuzao Temple because of the recent conflicts in Pandaria, a common emotion in war like fear indeed give it some strength. So i guess that all the stuff wrote up there is baseless speculation.

    Plus, i don't remember ANY Mantid activity in the Jade Forest, Mogu and Saurok yes, but no Mantid at all. The first Mantid to be seen in game before the ending of the Four Winds were in the western zone of Krasarang, pratically adjacent to the Valley.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-05-24 at 02:31 PM.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    If i remember well it is stated in the Dungeon Journal that the Sha of Fear became powerful enough to escape the Niuzao Temple because of the recent conflicts in Pandaria, a common emotion in war like fear indeed give it some strength. So i guess that all the stuff wrote up there is baseless speculation.

    Plus, i don't remember ANY Mantid activity in the Jade Forest, Mogu and Saurok yes, but no Mantid at all. The first Mantid to be seen in game before the ending of the Four Winds were in the western zone of Krasarang, pratically adjacent to the Valley.
    If you take the zones to be in order story wise according to level, it makes sense.

    Jade Forest: You start a chain of events that leads to the six sha being freed. You deal with the immediate threat of Doubt.

    Valley/Wilds: You deal with the immediate threat of Despair, while in the background fear is gaining power over the empress. During the time you're questing in these zones, Shek Zeer is beginning her swarm. You see her scouts here, and see the prelude to invasion coming from over the wall. In the climax of both zones ( a reminder that they used to be one zone at one point in development) you help fight off the initial wave.

    Go north to Kun'lai. The mantid aggression has pushed many of the Yaungol out of Townlong, so they invade Kunlai in an attempt to claim new lands. You deal with Violence in the monestary and chase Hatred into Townlong.

    Townlong. Here you fight more Yaungol and see that the mantid have solidified their position here now in the southern portions. You deal with hatred and the yaungol/mantid threats.

    Dread Wastes: Now, the land is heavily corrupted by the sha of fear, and the invasion is on in full force. As you reach 90, there's even a pair of heroics having you fending off Mantid assaults.

    So while it's possible that the sha of fear could have been free earlier than the players arriving, there's no need to assume it was unless there's solid lore to back that theory up.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-24 at 10:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynneiah View Post
    Chronologically, the Townlong steppes take place after the Shado-Pan Monastery questline. Taran Zhu was possessed because of his hatred towards the Alliance and Horde, and the war they brought to the shores of Pandaria. It's why you see Shado-Pan outposts in Kun Lai go without reinforcements when you show up.
    Yeah. Tarah Zhu's involvmeent goes like this:

    1. Yells at you in Jade forest first time you see him. Explains more about the sha the second time you see him there. Wants you to GTFO with your war.

    2. He argues against letting you into the Vale in Kun-lai. After the Jade Forest incident he's certain it'll lead to disaster.

    3. At some point off camera, likely due to his hatred for the horde/alliance for bringing their war to Pandaria, he succumbs to the Sha of Hatred.

    4. We fight him at the Shado-Pan Monastery, freeing him from Hatred's grip.

    5. We see him in Townlong, after he was freed canonically. Humbled by his experience perhaps, he is less hostile to the player now and gladly accepts your aid. We help him kill/imprison hatred (however that works with defeating sha) and he goes back to the monastery to recoup I think.

    6. He shows up on the Isle of Thunder to fight the Thunder King. Once again has no qualms about working with the player but isn't happy about the Kirin Tor/Sunreaver battle. Eventually chews both Jaina and Lor'themar out at the island story's conflict, and goes back to recover from his wounds.

    7. Hears about the digging in the sacred vale, a place that is VERY sacred to the pandaren and if you remember the quests it was a VERY big deal that they were openeing the gates and trusting the horde/alliance by letting them in. Understandably, he's angry with the Horde for doing this. But he doesn't forget the help the Horde has given him either, so instead of just purging the shrine he tells them to leave. And is eventually convinced to give the horde time to make things right because they're suffering under a tyrant, something the pandaren know of all too well.

    Really I find all of his interactions with the player to be completely reasonable.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Is there any actual proof of this besides speculation? Because we know from other sources that the Sha were generally able to be handled before we arrived. It wasn't qualified until other players decided to.
    Well, the queen has gone insane, the swarm started early (It shows in the western part of Valley of the four winds), the early Mantid swarm drove the Yaungol to move away from their old homes (Complete buildings wherever they are, those things don't come in flatpacks), mantid society went to pieces prompting the Klaxxi to act AND Dread wastes got all Sha-ified before the first alliance/horde people ever set foot in it (Assuming the player is the first to get there, no non-mantid/pandaren questgivers and all...), all that stuff doesn't happen instantly, it must have taken quite some time...

    So all in all, it's not such a huge stretch to assume stuff has been going wrong for a long time, though we don't know how much "lore time" goes by in 5 character levels, but still...

  9. #309
    Well right off the bat Anduin is missing and Wrynn pulls you aside to go find him as an expedition group. As 'the hero' you are one of the first on the continent and as soon as you start shooting orcs in the water the sha-lings of despair are there and yet you didn't release the sha of despair. They manifest on that horde base because of the despair caused by the war but thats because the sha of despair was already loose. Fortunately we are there to help the Shado Pan shore up their defences.

    One thing that gets me is Taran-Zu calls for you to kill the Shado-pan female who falls to anger over the death of her husband because she is possessed by a Sha but when he gets possessed we save him.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Well right off the bat Anduin is missing and Wrynn pulls you aside to go find him as an expedition group. As 'the hero' you are one of the first on the continent and as soon as you start shooting orcs in the water the sha-lings of despair are there and yet you didn't release the sha of despair. They manifest on that horde base because of the despair caused by the war but thats because the sha of despair was already loose. Fortunately we are there to help the Shado Pan shore up their defences.
    5
    One thing that gets me is Taran-Zu calls for you to kill the Shado-pan female who falls to anger over the death of her husband because she is possessed by a Sha but when he gets possessed we save him.
    The Sha in the Jade Forest is the Sha of Doubt, not Despair.
    And 'curing' someone from Sha possession seems to have a 50/50 chance of killing them.

  11. #311
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    A faction of pandas that got completely destroyed in 1vs 1 duels vs horde heroes, that failed to imprison an ancient evil which 5 random heroes took out in 20 minutes, that would have been completely destroyed by any number of the evil races on pandaria if the horde hadn't helped, whos leader was defeated by 5 heroes in less than 3minutes...even when he was super charged by sha, .... expect to take a shrine from hundreds of said heroes...?

    Yeh good luck with that little panda <3

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynneiah View Post
    The Sha in the Jade Forest is the Sha of Doubt, not Despair.
    And 'curing' someone from Sha possession seems to have a 50/50 chance of killing them.
    maybe its because "curing" the Sha is the same method for "killing" people
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  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Is there any actual proof of this besides speculation? Because we know from other sources that the Sha were generally able to be handled before we arrived. It wasn't qualified until other players decided to.
    There is a short story that for the life of me I can't remember the name to, but it was about a kid joining the shado-pan. And shado pan messengers ask for more supplies because of the strange early swarm and it is mentioned that strange people landed on the shores of the Jade forest.

  14. #314
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    Shado-Pan are nothing but cheap talk and that's a fact.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    So while it's possible that the sha of fear could have been free earlier than the players arriving, there's no need to assume it was unless there's solid lore to back that theory up.
    From the Dungeon Journal:

    The Sha of Fear is the physical manifestation of terror in Pandaria. Imprisoned by the legendary pandaren emperor Shaohao long ago, the entity has been newly strengthened by rising conflict across the island.
    It is not clear as i remembered, in fact leaves some room for speculation. But since the Journal says that the Sha has been "newly strengthened" by the war in Pandaria, sounds much like that this newfound power was the reason for his sudden escape after thousand of years. All the immense power he got later, compared to the other Sha, is due to his domination over the almost entire Mantid swarm, not from the conflicts in Pandaria. So seems much more logical that he achivied his freedom, well, thanks to us, like the other Sha.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    If you take the zones to be in order story wise according to level, it makes sense.

    Jade Forest: You start a chain of events that leads to the six sha being freed. You deal with the immediate threat of Doubt.

    Valley/Wilds: You deal with the immediate threat of Despair, while in the background fear is gaining power over the empress. During the time you're questing in these zones, Shek Zeer is beginning her swarm. You see her scouts here, and see the prelude to invasion coming from over the wall. In the climax of both zones ( a reminder that they used to be one zone at one point in development) you help fight off the initial wave.

    Go north to Kun'lai. The mantid aggression has pushed many of the Yaungol out of Townlong, so they invade Kunlai in an attempt to claim new lands. You deal with Violence in the monestary and chase Hatred into Townlong.

    Townlong. Here you fight more Yaungol and see that the mantid have solidified their position here now in the southern portions. You deal with hatred and the yaungol/mantid threats.

    Dread Wastes: Now, the land is heavily corrupted by the sha of fear, and the invasion is on in full force. As you reach 90, there's even a pair of heroics having you fending off Mantid assaults.

    So while it's possible that the sha of fear could have been free earlier than the players arriving, there's no need to assume it was unless there's solid lore to back that theory up.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-24 at 10:26 AM ----------



    Yeah. Tarah Zhu's involvmeent goes like this:

    1. Yells at you in Jade forest first time you see him. Explains more about the sha the second time you see him there. Wants you to GTFO with your war.

    2. He argues against letting you into the Vale in Kun-lai. After the Jade Forest incident he's certain it'll lead to disaster.

    3. At some point off camera, likely due to his hatred for the horde/alliance for bringing their war to Pandaria, he succumbs to the Sha of Hatred.

    4. We fight him at the Shado-Pan Monastery, freeing him from Hatred's grip.

    5. We see him in Townlong, after he was freed canonically. Humbled by his experience perhaps, he is less hostile to the player now and gladly accepts your aid. We help him kill/imprison hatred (however that works with defeating sha) and he goes back to the monastery to recoup I think.

    6. He shows up on the Isle of Thunder to fight the Thunder King. Once again has no qualms about working with the player but isn't happy about the Kirin Tor/Sunreaver battle. Eventually chews both Jaina and Lor'themar out at the island story's conflict, and goes back to recover from his wounds.

    7. Hears about the digging in the sacred vale, a place that is VERY sacred to the pandaren and if you remember the quests it was a VERY big deal that they were openeing the gates and trusting the horde/alliance by letting them in. Understandably, he's angry with the Horde for doing this. But he doesn't forget the help the Horde has given him either, so instead of just purging the shrine he tells them to leave. And is eventually convinced to give the horde time to make things right because they're suffering under a tyrant, something the pandaren know of all too well.

    Really I find all of his interactions with the player to be completely reasonable.
    You do not release all the sha in Jade Forest, you release 1 sha. The Sha of fear was being held in the Ox Temple.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You do not release all the sha in Jade Forest, you release 1 sha. The Sha of fear was being held in the Ox Temple.
    Hard to belive it, since in all the zones we go, the Sha are already rampant by their own, while we discovered that they weren't by thousand and thousand of years. We simply see the Sha of Doubt of the Jade Forest because, well, we are in the Jade Forest. This doesn't mean that all emerged instantly in the same time, but it's sure that who before who after all released during the events in the Jade Forest.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRickyB View Post
    Thats kinda the point. instead of the Shado-pan understanding that theres a problem
    And from their point of view the problem is simple.

    They let the Horde in and the Horde ended up desecrating and despoiling the vale.


    ou know the same Shado-pan we dug out of a grave with not only the sha possesing there leader, but all the Shas so far and the Thunder King who was stopped by the last emperor( i think?), who would have been unchecked.
    The Shado Pan were also involved in that assault. As were the Alliance. And you can likely thank those acts for the Shado Pan not actually purging the Shrine without warning.

    they threaten and we know for SURE they couldn't back anything up.
    No. We don't. The Shado Pan have enough soldiers to maintain a presence across the entirety of Pandaria and man the Great Wall. The Horde forces at the Shrine are limited and the Horde forces are also focussed on the Alliance. A force that can withstand the Sha, Mantid, Mogu and Yaungol for millennia can't really be seen as weak.

    i think its time the Horde shows its might to people who bite our hands after we feed them. -.-
    They also helped the Horde. And the Horde turned around and treated them like nothing, descreating their lands and invading their temples. That's on par for Garrosh but lets not try to pretend the Shado Pan don't have a justifiable grievance here. As to the threat to purge the Temple - given their history and numbers and the resources available to them, it isn't an empty threat. You can argue the Horde helped them...but being fair, the Horde and Alliance also caused many of the conditions that led to them being swamped; the Shado Pan don't really owe the Horde or Alliance anything as Taoshi makes clear. A common foe does not make you BFFs.

    Put another way - the gameplay strength of the Horde isn't a reflection of the reality in the gameworld

    EJL

  19. #319
    For those commenting on the Horde/Alliance difference in lore this expansion (Why does Horde get all the attention? Why is the Alliance unambiguously "good"?): Garrosh was a seed that was planted several expansions ago, in Burning Crusade, and this expansion is his and his Horde's turn to be front and center. Without a doubt, the Alliance and one or more of its leaders will be in a similar situation an expansion or three down the road. Jaina Proudmore is almost certainly someone we will be hearing more about in the years to come.

    Think about it: the Alliance is consolidating while the Horde is falling apart. How long can an empire as powerful as the Alliance is poised to become remain benevolent and at peace with the world?

    As an addendum, this story is for my money a beautiful one, and one that history has borne out time and again. Garrosh could have been Napolean, or Kaiser Wilhelm II, or even (shudder) Hitler (he does have a racial purity thing going on...). On the other end when the Horde collapses the Alliance could be the Roman empire or the post-war United States, both of which are seen through a benevolent lens in the popular imagination but are full of moral gray areas and ambiguities.
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-05-24 at 07:36 PM.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbeef View Post
    A faction of pandas that got completely destroyed in 1vs 1 duels vs horde heroes, that failed to imprison an ancient evil which 5 random heroes took out in 20 minutes, that would have been completely destroyed by any number of the evil races on pandaria if the horde hadn't helped, whos leader was defeated by 5 heroes in less than 3minutes...even when he was super charged by sha, .... expect to take a shrine from hundreds of said heroes...?

    Yeh good luck with that little panda <3
    Don't confuse game mechanics with lore strength. If you do this you have to say that a Kun-Lai porquepine and a hozen could take down the Old God C'thuun. The fight in 5 man dungons is tuned to people of a certain gear level so they can progress through story and gear up out of mechanical necessity, it does not mean that just because 5 heroes cleaned out the Sha of violence that an army of Shado-Pan couldn't keep imprisoned then they couldn't possibly cleanse the Horde temple. Mechanics does not = Lore.

    Lore Trumps mechanics in story direction, mechanics trump lore in instance battles.

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