"I would've already ordered the Shado-Pan to purge this entire shrine. "

[Zathrendar]

Actually it is. He was a member of the "New Alliance." That was literally the name of his faction during Frozen Throne. There weren't anybody in the "New Alliance" who survived past the Frozen Throne campaign. The Kirin Tor were not parts of the "New Alliance."

Like I said, I agree with you completely that the Silver Covenant were linked with Jaina. I never claimed they weren't.

My point is that the Kirin Tor form a continuous line between the old and new Alliance. That is where the connection arises. Ultimately, like the Horde, the Alliance rebranded. There is still continuity between the old and new versions. I am aware that Garithos was a rogue agent, but the Kirin Tor had no problem standing by his actions.

[KrazyK923]

My point is that the Kirin Tor form a continuous line between the old and new Alliance. That is where the connection arises. Ultimately, like the Horde, the Alliance rebranded. There is still continuity between the old and new versions. I am aware that Garithos was a rogue agent, but the Kirin Tor had no problem standing by his actions.

Except they don't. And they never have stood by Garithos' actions. Where can you point to them saying "Yeah! Fuck them High Elves! We were allies for many hundreds of years, but because that racist guy says they are bad, so do we!" Even when the Blood Elves are locked up in Dalaran's dungeon, it is wholly Garithos' forces who are in the area.

[Zathrendar]

Except they don't. And they never have stood by Garithos' actions.

Then why assist him in imprisoning the blood elves? Have they renounced their former course of action? Regardless of whose forces were there, they need not have granted him permission.

[KrazyK923]

Then why assist him in imprisoning the blood elves? Have they renounced their former course of action? Regardless of whose forces were there, they need not have granted him permission.

http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Dungeons_of_Dalaran

Or go and replay it yourself. There are no Dalaran forces that take part in this. It is 100% of Garithos' forces and his jailers.

The lore of Dalaran is that they returned to its ruins months after it was destroyed, clear it out, and then get it back up and running. Then the whole arcane bubble and all that jazz.

They were not involved. I'm not sure how many more times or ways I can state that.

[yetgdhfgh]

HAHA The Shado-Pan is welcome to try

Also the vale doesnt even belong to the pandas it belongs to the mogu they are the ones who should be pissed

Also the alliance cant chirp about this seeing that the dwarfs have been digging up sacred tauren land since vanilla!

[Mad_Murdock]

I played through all of the revamped zones. I have been pro alliance for all of wow, but I also played the revamped stone talon mountains and I can honestly say garrosh was not a villain at the end of that.

Just to chime in, I had heard all the anti-garrosh stuff and then did the Stone Talon quests and I was a bit confused by it all. That Garrosh doesn't seem anything like the Garrosh of today. I'm kinda disappointed Garrosh couldn't have calmed down and become a better guy, sometimes bad guys really are just bad.

[Pull My Finger]

This is just the final straw, really, how much more pandering do they intend to do to validate making the alliance feel superior and demonizing even the only good elements in the horde left.

What, are they going to have the alliance next get to have the horde chained to posts, have all neutral factions become alliance only, and give them 50% land, all the while the alliance community complains about 'waah, blizzard ignores me so much'.

Seriously, this shit just pisses me off. Its bad enough we had to put up with garrosh crapforbrains hellscream turning the horde into a totalitarian society, seeing every good aspect of the horde pissed on, seeing everything garrosh does become the aspect of all evil so thus the horde becomes evil, and so all neutral factions view the horde as evil (dalaran, shado-pan, they'd probably do it with the cenarion circle with the deforesting of ashenvale if they could).

This is why the alliance is also so boring. Since when was the last time the alliance did something that out of faction characters questioned and considered reprehensable. Why is it always on the hordes head they get this? If the alliance did something so rotten a neutral faction considered throwing them out of an organization, I'd actually considered that depth, and show the alliance isn't always the happy go lucky goody good guys.

Dude, it's a game. But you're definitely not the guy who should develop interest in politics and stuff, you'd end up having a heart attack.

[Combatbutler]

http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Dungeons_of_Dalaran

Or go and replay it yourself. There are no Dalaran forces that take part in this. It is 100% of Garithos' forces and his jailers.

The lore of Dalaran is that they returned to its ruins months after it was destroyed, clear it out, and then get it back up and running. Then the whole arcane bubble and all that jazz.

They were not involved. I'm not sure how many more times or ways I can state that.

Indeed they were not directly involved, still they are not innocent, since they chose to abandom their allies, for the second time I might add. The first time Dalaran did not assist Quel'thalas against Arthas and the second time they did nothing to stop Garithos and some former members of the Kirin Tor were part of Garithos's men.

[KrazyK923]

Indeed they were not directly involved, still they are not innocent, since they chose to abandom their allies, for the second time I might add. The first time Dalaran did not assist Quel'thalas against Arthas and the second time they did nothing to stop Garithos and some former members of the Kirin Tor were part of Garithos's men.

Abandoned their allies? You mean...when they were nearly totally destroyed? Their city gone and their leaders murdered with the only major Mage left in the Kirin Tor half away across the sea?

There isn't any evidence to say they were even hanging around the area when Garithos was doing this.

Talk about a stretch.

I also like how you automatically assume the Kirin Tor willingly forsook Quel'thalas. I wasn't aware lack of lore meant we made our own up.

[McNeil]

Taran Zhu sure has some guts to tell us to GTFO, after we saved his ass in the Monastery, savin Townlong for him and killing the Thunder King.

I'd gladly stab a Horde flag trough chest, and /flex while standing with one foot on his fat belly

Fighting pandaren can only be a dream...

[SturdyGamer]

I think it's safe to trust Grand Magister Rommath's experience with the Kirin Tor given that he saw what went on first hand. Contrary to popular belief neither the Alliance or the Kirin Tor are pure and righteous organisations be it in the past or the present.

[Tastyfish]

He's awfully confident for a guy who's needed us to solve every single problem he's had for him since landing in Pandaria.

I think there is a layer there that people should reflect on...about real life. lol

[Skayth]

Well, to be honest, Taran Zhu is all talk. 10 or 25 good people, who know not to stand in fire, can massacre his entire army, and then when he realizes his mistake, A horde flag is planted in his chest, while the rest of the 10 or 25 sit there and wonder who gets the hat, the spear, the shoulder pad, and his cloud serpent mount, as they begin rolling dice over his dying corpse to figure out who gets it. Not to mention that one troll standing and sitting on his face for the next minute constantly.

[Florena]

I think if you stop to think you'll realize how big a deal this is. The Vale is a very sacred place to the pandaren. To the point that opening the gates and letting people in was a monumental, historic moment. Go replay the opening quest line if you've forgotten. Garrosh sending people in and mucking it up is a betrayal of that trust placed in the horde. This is no small transgression. And in the end, Taren Zhu shows some empathy for the Horde and allows them time to make things right. The horde and alliance were graciously allowed to stay in the vale, and Garrosh went and dug his hole looking for dark powers. Are you really surprised that the shado pan would want you out?

As for whether they could purge the shrine, keep in mind these shrines are not domination pointe or lion's landing. They're not millitary bases. They're not staffed with millitary personel for the most part. Sure they have some guards, but it's not a full on military base.

As for the Shado-pan being useless, you need to seperate gameplay from lore here. The npc factions always come across as useless in game, because gameplay is tailored around the player. They limit npc involvement in boss fights because of this. As for the shado pan, you see them all across Pandaria. Fighting to defend the wall, on the isle of thunder, etc. If the Shado Pan are useless, well guess what. So are the Kor'kron. So are the lions landing and domination point forces. So are all allied or neutral npcs in the game, because everything in the game revolves around the players fighting stuff, because gameplay comes first in WoW.

This is just the final straw, really, how much more pandering do they intend to do to validate making the alliance feel superior and demonizing even the only good elements in the horde left.

What, are they going to have the alliance next get to have the horde chained to posts, have all neutral factions become alliance only, and give them 50% land, all the while the alliance community complains about 'waah, blizzard ignores me so much'.

Seriously, this shit just pisses me off. Its bad enough we had to put up with garrosh crapforbrains hellscream turning the horde into a totalitarian society, seeing every good aspect of the horde pissed on, seeing everything garrosh does become the aspect of all evil so thus the horde becomes evil, and so all neutral factions view the horde as evil (dalaran, shado-pan, they'd probably do it with the cenarion circle with the deforesting of ashenvale if they could).

This is why the alliance is also so boring. Since when was the last time the alliance did something that out of faction characters questioned and considered reprehensable. Why is it always on the hordes head they get this? If the alliance did something so rotten a neutral faction considered throwing them out of an organization, I'd actually considered that depth, and show the alliance isn't always the happy go lucky goody good guys.

Have you lost your marbles? THE ALLIANCE PLAYERS DON"T EVEN SEE THIS. The entire point of that conversation is to show that Garrosh's actions are straining the Horde's ties to the pandaren, the shado pan in particular, while also showing the pandaren that the horde are not united and many are rising up against Garrosh. I hope you were paying attention to the opening of the gates quest, because them letting the horde and alliance in? It was a really big deal. That place is sacred to the pandaren. And Garrosh went and dug a crater in the middle of it. And guess what? In the end, Taren Zhu feels empathy for the horde because his people too have suffered under tyrants. It had NOTHING at all to do with the alliance or alliance players.

Anything the shado pan have seen the alliance do to the horde, well guess what they've seen the horde do back. They weren't in dalaran, but they did see us fighting eachother in both jade forest and then krasarang. If the Alliance had dug up a ditch in their sacred vale he'd be yelling at them. And as of 5.3 Garrosh is pretty much officially the villain for both factions now. And don't say that Zhu didn't listen to reason, he does just that at the end of that conversation, giving Desco time to make things right and understanding what it's like to live under a tyrant.

[Combatbutler]

Abandoned their allies? You mean...when they were nearly totally destroyed? Their city gone and their leaders murdered with the only major Mage left in the Kirin Tor half away across the sea?

There isn't any evidence to say they were even hanging around the area when Garithos was doing this.

Talk about a stretch.

I also like how you automatically assume the Kirin Tor willingly forsook Quel'thalas. I wasn't aware lack of lore meant we made our own up.

We have lore that indicates the Kirin Tor are not innocent, which would be the Shadow of the Sun for example, we know that former members of the Kirin Tor were part of Garithos men, their order might have been disarray, but we don't know if the Kirin Tor returned to the city months after this whole ordeal happened, since that particular passage is from the rpg books. So I am inclined to believe Rommath.

[Lord Pebbleton]

OT: Mulgore isn't an empty land. It's the most stunning place in WoW in all its sobriety, along with Dun Morogh. I don't fancy titan-constructed halls as much as green plains and snowy cliffs.

Eventually, this thread will degenerate into an Allaince vs Horde flaming fest. Why can't we all stop with this and enjoy what the game gives us? There's no point in arguing and insulting a stranger online over something we can't decide, like the fact Garrosh IS the last boss of the expansion.

[Alhoon]

The difference is that when the Horde does something bad, it gets paraded around forever. If the Alliance does anything bad, it gets swept under the rug and forgotten about.
Edit: From a story telling perspective. The players obviously remember almost everything.

Fixed that for you.

[Glaziola]

We should just drop another mana bomb on the shado-pan monastery

[Zathrendar]

We have lore that indicates the Kirin Tor are not innocent, which would be the Shadow of the Sun for example, we know that former members of the Kirin Tor were part of Garithos men, their order might have been disarray, but we don't know if the Kirin Tor returned to the city months after this whole ordeal happened, since that particular passage is from the rpg books. So I am inclined to believe Rommath.

They still had a jailor there, after all.

[RyanEX]

Oh look, Horde fanbois crying.

Amusingly enough, it's some of the same Horde fanbois that mock Alliance fanbois who cry.

Delicious.

[This post was infracted for trolling.]

Careful, they don't care much for logic.

As for Alliance shady activities. We haven't yet heard the end of 1)Taurajo
2)Dalaran purging
3)Anything Admiral Rogers
4)Them mean Night Elves making the orcs attack them

As for the rest of it, he DOESN'T kick you out. He, Mr. close-minded, gives you the benefit of the doubt and gives you time to depose the one everyone'd heaping the blame on.