Thread: Haste or Crit

  1. #1
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    Haste or Crit

    Another Haste vs Crit Thread. I see many of the top hunters using crit over haste when they have 4 Set 2 RPPM Trinkets and the Meta when Haste is simming way higher than crit build.


    Any perticular reasons why?

  2. #2
    I've posted my personal reason multiple times on this forum so I'm going to keep it short. While neither stat is bad, crit is a lot more consistent because on average it always gives you roughly the same benefit. Haste on the other hand, is a gamble. Haste can net you some amazing DPS but it can swing the other way as well. If you are aiming for good ranks you should definitely go for haste. However I'm still progressing, and I want my damage to be consistent instead of really good one attempt, and horrible the other.

    Once we have Lei-Shen and Ra-Den heroic on farm, I'm going to start reforging haste for some nice logs. But for the time being, more RNG is the last thing we need.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-05-28 at 12:22 PM.
    Bovan.9481
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    I've posted my personal reason multiple times on this forum so I'm going to keep it short. While neither stat is bad, crit is a lot more consistent because on average it always gives you roughly the same benefit. Haste on the other hand, is a gamble. Haste can net you some amazing DPS but it can swing the other way as well. If you are aiming for good ranks you should definitely go for Haste. However I'm still progressing, and I want my damage to be consistent instead of really good one attempt, and horrible the other.

    Once we have Lei-Shen and Ra-Den heroic on farm, I'm going to start reforging haste for some nice logs. But for the time being, more RNG is the last thing we need.
    This is honestly a poor way to look at it. Haste is simply better. The primary reason Haste is good for BM is the passive benefit to our pets attack speed, focus regen speed, and our auto shot speed. With RPPM, the meta is basically increased by a flat amount with Haste due to its mechanics. With the trinkets, there is an incredibly noticeable difference with the uptimes on the trinkets. It really is not a gamble. I've seen big DPS swings with KC/KS crits too, I'm not really seeing the argument here.

    The difference between Haste and Crit for BM with your gear is simply huge. Go haste.
    Kennyloggins - im afk

  4. #4

    Crit or Haste.

    I just had a quick question about the haste vs crit debate. At what point in gear does haste outweigh crit? Or does haste come out on top regardless of gear?

    I quit raiding at the start of 5.2, so I know my gear is behind, however I just got accepted as a trial with a new raiding guild and want to make sure my DPS is top-notch. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ronix/advanced

  5. #5
    So far I've still not seen any solid proof that it always turns out better on average. I can see the sims and I'm aware how much better haste looks on paper, but trying it out in-game will show some results where DPS just skyrockets because of good trinket (and such) uptimes but also very mediocre results where the uptimes on trinkets aren't far off compared to a crit build. I'm not against haste and I can certainly see the pros and cons of both sides. But without some solid proof I'm scared to swap mid-progression.

    Also with the amount of pet bugs going on right, now half the benefits like pet focus regen and attack speed is slightly diminished.

    I really do see your point, and I respect your views and advice, but we are too close to getting Lei-Shen down to tamper with builds right now. If the issue was our DPS I totally would do everything in my power to squeeze out every last bit of damage, but fortunately the issues are random deaths because of personal screwups.
    Bovan.9481
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  6. #6
    When you get 4 set, dual RPPM trinkets, and the legendary gem.
    Omnipotent WCL || Omnipotent Site || Stream: 5-9pm PST Tues/Wed/Thurs || Worst Btag Ever: Slenderman#1355

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    So far I've still not seen any solid proof that it always turns out better on average. I can see the sims and I'm aware how much better haste looks on paper, but trying it out in-game will show some results where DPS just skyrockets because of good trinket (and such) uptimes but also very mediocre results where the uptimes on trinkets aren't far off compared to a crit build. I'm not against haste and I can certainly see the pros and cons of both sides. But without some solid proof I'm scared to swap mid-progression.

    Also with the amount of pet bugs going on right, now half the benefits like pet focus regen and attack speed is slightly diminished.

    I really do see your point, and I respect your views and advice, but we are too close to getting Lei-Shen down to tamper with builds right now. If the issue was our DPS I totally would do everything in my power to squeeze out every last bit of damage, but fortunately the issues are random deaths because of personal screwups.
    Really, to the points Kenny already added, haste will still average out better, yes on some pulls you will get incredibly lucky and dps off the charts, but as a whole your results, and rppm-item uptimes will simply be higher, thus resulting in more stats / damage / gained.

  8. #8
    Right, while I'm still not fully convinced I suppose I can try a few pulls on Lei-Shen next week with my haste build and see how it turns out. Admittedly it's been a while since I last actually tried it and I've had some pretty decent upgrades since then along with the item upgrades from last patch. Maybe my views are a little skewed from last time.

    What really does worry me are the pet related issues though. Constantly I see my pet out it's target's range just sitting there for a second before deciding to blink in. It's starting to get incredibly frustrating to deal with. Crit's value won't diminish as much because of this, haste however will.
    Bovan.9481
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  9. #9
    The Patient Varum93's Avatar
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    yeah I understand where your coming from Bovan and I hope Pure get it down soon (Ex-Pure Member here) and Yes Haste is more luck based but for my guild where we are currently progressing slower than some the extra DPS will help.

  10. #10
    The Patient Varum93's Avatar
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    Not sure all of them is needed some say just 4 set and meta is enough but the trinkets sky rocket it also. with just 4 set no trinks n meta haste sims about same as crit.

  11. #11
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    Considering the top two threads were "Crit or Haste" and "Haste or Crit," I'm going to merge the two threads. Please, please, please look for a second before posting literally the same exact topic 45 minutes after the last thread on the subject.

  12. #12
    Well try to take another approach to the topic. Difference is minor with average gear ~528 ilvl or less.
    However with legendary meta, both ppm trinkets (especially heroic and upgraded), 2P and 4P and gear around +535 ilvl stat value changes in favor of haste.
    Of course even full agi+haste gems, and full haste>crit>master reforge, doesnt guarantee you much better dps every try. Because your dps (apart from gear, latency, strategy, skill etc) is very raid dependant in many aspects (BL, overall dps, skull banners, ninja pulls). You have to keep in mind that proper rotation is very important to get pro dps, and i really prefer to have 5.1 focus regen per sec, rather than 4.6 so even if i make small mistake i have backup focus regen to catch up. Also you may want to search it, but trinkets start to have slightly higher uptime with haste>crit (i even found some 42-44% in random logs).
    Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of they dies...

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kennyloggins View Post
    This is honestly a poor way to look at it. Haste is simply better. The primary reason Haste is good for BM is the passive benefit to our pets attack speed, focus regen speed, and our auto shot speed. With RPPM, the meta is basically increased by a flat amount with Haste due to its mechanics. With the trinkets, there is an incredibly noticeable difference with the uptimes on the trinkets. It really is not a gamble. I've seen big DPS swings with KC/KS crits too, I'm not really seeing the argument here.

    The difference between Haste and Crit for BM with your gear is simply huge. Go haste.
    Do you tend to stick with the same strat when using Survival Kenny? Or are you reforging back to crit>haste for surv. Much thanks.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Windthorn View Post
    Do you tend to stick with the same strat when using Survival Kenny? Or are you reforging back to crit>haste for surv. Much thanks.
    Survival? What is that? Kappa

    Anyway, most of the Survival fights are pretty easy, so I never bothered reforging. I started reforging to Haste around the time we were on Lei Shen.

    Also Bovan, not to stress the issue too much, but I ran a Simcraft with Crit and Haste reforging (with my gear), and difference was this: the average DPS was about 5k higher for haste, the minimum DPS for haste was higher than the minimum DPS for crit, but by 2k, and the variance was about 8% higher for haste. Basically, if you look at it statistically, yes Haste has higher variance, but in the end it isn't enough to be substantial. I think it's different for something like Assassination rogue where Mastery was their best stat by a decent margin, and Haste only barely edged it out with RPPM. With BM, Haste and Crit have been pretty close since T14.
    Kennyloggins - im afk

  15. #15
    The Patient Varum93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kennyloggins View Post
    Survival? What is that? Kappa

    Anyway, most of the Survival fights are pretty easy, so I never bothered reforging. I started reforging to Haste around the time we were on Lei Shen.

    Also Bovan, not to stress the issue too much, but I ran a Simcraft with Crit and Haste reforging (with my gear), and difference was this: the average DPS was about 5k higher for haste, the minimum DPS for haste was higher than the minimum DPS for crit, but by 2k, and the variance was about 8% higher for haste. Basically, if you look at it statistically, yes Haste has higher variance, but in the end it isn't enough to be substantial. I think it's different for something like Assassination rogue where Mastery was their best stat by a decent margin, and Haste only barely edged it out with RPPM. With BM, Haste and Crit have been pretty close since T14.
    So are you saying that its not worth going for the Haste due to the high level of variance

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Yavania View Post
    So are you saying that its not worth going for the Haste due to the high level of variance
    No, I said it has slightly higher variance, but it doesn't amount to anything. The minimum DPS you could reasonably expect as Haste is still higher than the minimum DPS you could expect as Crit.
    Last edited by Kennyloggins; 2013-05-28 at 03:03 PM.
    Kennyloggins - im afk

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Yavania View Post
    yeah I understand where your coming from Bovan and I hope Pure get it down soon (Ex-Pure Member here) and Yes Haste is more luck based but for my guild where we are currently progressing slower than some the extra DPS will help.
    Cheers, and hah, it's a small world isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kennyloggins View Post
    Also Bovan, not to stress the issue too much, but I ran a Simcraft with Crit and Haste reforging (with my gear), and difference was this: the average DPS was about 5k higher for haste, the minimum DPS for haste was higher than the minimum DPS for crit, but by 2k, and the variance was about 8% higher for haste. Basically, if you look at it statistically, yes Haste has higher variance, but in the end it isn't enough to be substantial. I think it's different for something like Assassination rogue where Mastery was their best stat by a decent margin, and Haste only barely edged it out with RPPM. With BM, Haste and Crit have been pretty close since T14.
    Well like I mentioned before, I can see how much better haste is simming. But I don't like to blindly trust a sim because it's not always fully applicable to a real raiding situation. There are issues like pets not have full uptimes on their target (which is a bug to be fair) or latency which both go against haste. After I sim something I want to log in and see how accurate said sim really is. Last time I tried, crit was just performing better on average. But again it's been a while since I actually did a proper test. I'm expecting the item upgrades for both my trinkets to make a difference compared to last time.

    I sincerely hope you are right. Even a 2k DPS increase would be very welcome. I also find haste much more enjoyable to play with.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, Frostfang, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Incinerator, ascended medium armor.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Well like I mentioned before, I can see how much better haste is simming. But I don't like to blindly trust a sim because it's not always fully applicable to a real raiding situation. There are issues like pets not have full uptimes on their target (which is a bug to be fair) or latency which both go against haste. After I sim something I want to log in and see how accurate said sim really is. Last time I tried, crit was just performing better on average. But again it's been a while since I actually did a proper test. I'm expecting the item upgrades for both my trinkets to make a difference compared to last time.

    I sincerely hope you are right. Even a 2k DPS increase would be very welcome. I also find haste much more enjoyable to play with.
    Also, assuming you're basing your observations on Lei Shen, I would advise to only look at DPS in P1 and P3. P2 as a whole is largely without a DPS check, plus there is going to be large variance in your DPS based on adds spawning in your quadrant during intermissions. Basically, I've noticed huge variations in my Lei Shen DPS pull-to-pull, but only when looking at overall. In P1 and P3, my DPS is usually pretty consistent (except this week when I got 1 of each trinket proc the entirety of P1, RNGGGGGG).

    Oh yeah, you are playing BM on Lei Shen right? If you were playing SV, it's another story. I forgot so many people play SV on that fight.
    Last edited by Kennyloggins; 2013-05-28 at 03:40 PM.
    Kennyloggins - im afk

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kennyloggins View Post
    Also, assuming you're basing your observations on Lei Shen, I would advise to only look at DPS in P1 and P3. P2 as a whole is largely without a DPS check, plus there is going to be large variance in your DPS based on adds spawning in your quadrant. Basically, I've noticed huge variations in my Lei Shen DPS pull-to-pull, but only when looking at overall. In P1 and P3, my DPS is usually pretty consistent (except this week when I got 1 of each trinket proc the entirety of P1, RNGGGGGG).

    Oh yeah, you are playing BM on Lei Shen right? If you were playing SV, it's another story. I forgot so many people play SV on that fight.
    I was planning to look at overall DPS on several similar pulls. We are still having some weird phase 1 deaths which ultimately lead to a wipe so I'm not going to single out those kind of logs.

    Both me and our other Hunter switched to Beast Mastery after last patch. Our raid leader wants us to deal with snap AoE damage on the ball lightning so that's why we've been Survival until now. But the Beast Cleave buff is strong enough to do the same thing along with higher DPS in the other phases. I personally really don't see a point in going Survival there anymore.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, Frostfang, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Incinerator, ascended medium armor.

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