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  1. #21
    As long as the 5.4 Legendaries do NOT have Hit or Expertise on them (just give us equal amounts of Crit/Haste/Mastery like the 5.3 cloaks), I won't care so much, along with some kind of an awesome proc.
    Games are not necessarily "easier" today. You are just a better player.
    It takes more now to impress many gamers than it did 2-5 years ago, because so much has already been seen and done.
    Many players expect to be wow'd with every release of a beloved franchise.
    These are generally NOT the fault of the developers, but the fault of many players over-hyping and/or setting expectations too high.

  2. #22
    High Overlord Basso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    I wouldn't be shocked to see the hit cap meet after two heroic pieces of gear.
    Sadly, this is already the case, Ji-Kun Trinket, Ji-Kun Plate Chest, Council 2hand Sword and jinrokh plate chest, are already enough if you dont refrge hit away, the hero tf ji kun feather has 1100 hit on it even if you reforge it........

    i just hope they have some idea about this, i mean they cant just increase it because everyone with lower gear cant reach it then....

  3. #23
    Another possibility is remove Expertise and use 15% caster Hit cap for every DPS / tank spec. I don't see why tanks / melee DPS / hunters have to get 2550 Hit + 2550 Expertise when casters need 5100 Hit, which is harder to over-cap.

    Just make Hit start reducing parry chance after the 15% mark:

    7.5% Hit = 0% miss, 7.5% dodge, 7.5% parry
    15% Hit (all DPS specs) = 0% miss, 0% dodge, 7.5% parry
    22.5% Hit (certain tank specs i.e. Prot Pally) = 0% miss, 0% dodge, 0% parry

    Dual wielding follows the same rule, but the current DW accuracy penalty to OH still applies.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Another possibility is remove Expertise and use 15% caster Hit cap for every DPS / tank spec. I don't see why tanks / melee DPS / hunters have to get 2550 Hit + 2550 Expertise when casters need 5100 Hit, which is harder to over-cap.

    Just make Hit start reducing parry chance after the 15% mark:

    7.5% Hit = 0% miss, 7.5% dodge, 7.5% parry
    15% Hit (all DPS specs) = 0% miss, 0% dodge, 7.5% parry
    22.5% Hit (certain tank specs i.e. Prot Pally) = 0% miss, 0% dodge, 0% parry

    Dual wielding follows the same rule, but the current DW accuracy penalty to OH still applies.
    Yep, seems the most simple. Just rename it "Accuracy" or something, can keep the same breakpoints or whatever. That way it's one stat, one color (BLUE!), and one "slot" for a secondary. No more Hit/Exp gear to frustrate people, or 2 caps to dance around, or weird gemming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  5. #25
    Or you guys could just stop being so OCD about item points. For example, as has been said the feather is BIS for DKs for no other reason than the proc. That means all other trinkets are not as good even if they have usable passive stats on them and you are hit capped without the hit on the feather. You're "wasting" item points on the hit yet that trinket offers you the best possible DPS gain over any other existing trinket. You guys are just complaining because their are item points being "wasted" simply because you can't use them. The items may still be better than any other items that you have or that may be available. Treat it as you would any other stat you don't really want, it's there, you've pulled what you can from it, the item is still the best you have or can get, move on.

  6. #26
    The Feather is good despite basically shaving off half its secondary stat because of what you stated. The 40% of the hit you reforge is likely going to be unnecessary. Still makes it awesome.

    Other items are only as good as their stats, nothing else. Then, when some of those stats are worth 0 (the stats that happen to be hit rating), you can see the issue >_> They may be the same dps as some lower ilvl piece, but there's no way they're the same as something with two stats you can use fully. That's the issue, that you have a 'choice' in picking up items, but one choice is basically always the wrong one.


    Blizzard should realize that picking up items should never feel bad. In the world of reforging and second stats that are very close (at least for DKs), getting a sub-optimal piece still feels better than an item where one of its stats does nothing.
    Last edited by fangless; 2013-05-23 at 05:29 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by OrionAntares View Post
    Or you guys could just stop being so OCD about item points. For example, as has been said the feather is BIS for DKs for no other reason than the proc. That means all other trinkets are not as good even if they have usable passive stats on them and you are hit capped without the hit on the feather. You're "wasting" item points on the hit yet that trinket offers you the best possible DPS gain over any other existing trinket. You guys are just complaining because their are item points being "wasted" simply because you can't use them. The items may still be better than any other items that you have or that may be available. Treat it as you would any other stat you don't really want, it's there, you've pulled what you can from it, the item is still the best you have or can get, move on.
    Except, not.

    We are saying that hit (or expertise) over cap is "wasted" because there is simply no other way to put it. It contributes literally ZERO to your DPS.

    If, for example, the JiKun Feather was CRIT instead of HIT, let's examine. Crit, even thought not desired by all classes/specs as their "best secondary" is not subject to a cap. Well, not an attainable one, anyway. But, usually there is a sweet-spot or general area that players will aim for. For the sake of this argument, let's say we want to sit at ~20% crit, raid buffed. So, you get your Feather, and it bumps you up to 22.3% crit, over the general area you want to be. You reforge, back down to something like 21.5%, still over, but not as egregiously so. At the end of the day, that 1.5% crit over your "sweet spot" STILL ADDS TO YOUR THROUGHPUT.

    This works for Mastery, Crit, Spirit, and Haste (barring odd behavior around breakpoints, even though there is ALWAYS another breakpoint to work towards). This means that of all the possible secondaries, Hit/Expertise are the only ones that A) have caps and B) have asymptotic behavior around those caps.

    So no, it's not the same. It IS still there, and it IS unavoidable, but it is NOT the same as having an excess of literally ANY other secondary stat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  8. #28
    That's my point. It shouldn't feel bad if the item is useful. The only reason it feels bad is because of a certain player's concepts on "sub-optimal". If the piece is the best you can get, it's the optimal piece for you even if some of those item points are unused. The only reason to feel bad about picking up loot is if you're hording it all away from the other people playing with you.

    OCD aside, this could actually be a planned issue. As far as we know, next tier (which is likely the last for this expansion) they might drop all or almost all hit from the gear and require that people gem, enchant, and reforge to meet their hit and expertise needs.

  9. #29
    The issue with hit/exp over cap is that you have stats that could be contributing to DPS which aren't. In terms of how much an item contributes to your DPS it's precisely like getting a lower ilevel item since some of the stat budget is wasted. "Yay, I got a 522 piece... with lots of hit and expertise, most of which I don't need. So I got a 516, really."


    The solution is conceptually simple (though not something they can do until 6.0):

    Keep hit and expertise as needed stats. Bosses still have a miss/dodge parry chance.

    Eliminate hit and expertise from ALL gear. Use the stat budget that would go to hit/exp entirely on other secondary stats.

    Players will need to gain hit and expertise. They can do this via gems, enchants and by reforging the secondary stats to hit or expertise. This would need balancing in the follow ways:

    - You couldn't get all of your needed hit/exp from gems and enchants, just some.
    - Some secondary stats will be more valuable than others so it should cost more of those stats to get a point of hit or exp. For example, if crit is twice as valuable to me as mastery then I should need to spend 2 points of crit to get a point of hit but only 1 point of mastery.

    What this does is keep the need for hit and expertise but it means I reallocate my stat budget UP to the caps rather than being given so much hit and expertise that I try to shed them. After that, I'm done. This would be more complex for people who don't understand stats but I don't think stat mechanisms should cater to people who don't understand how stats work

    Obviously, the inverse of this would work too. Keep things as they are but allow us to reforge 100% of hit and expertise to other stats and allow us to reforge both stats on a piece of gear that has both.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-05-23 at 06:08 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by OrionAntares View Post
    That's my point. It shouldn't feel bad if the item is useful. The only reason it feels bad is because of a certain player's concepts on "sub-optimal". If the piece is the best you can get, it's the optimal piece for you even if some of those item points are unused. The only reason to feel bad about picking up loot is if you're hording it all away from the other people playing with you.

    OCD aside, this could actually be a planned issue. As far as we know, next tier (which is likely the last for this expansion) they might drop all or almost all hit from the gear and require that people gem, enchant, and reforge to meet their hit and expertise needs.
    That would certainly be far better, for everyone.

    Hit/exp, even with reforging, is like a backwards haircut. It's easier to tack it on than it is to trim it off.

    Or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Redrun View Post
    I treat hit like i do oil in a car. its better to be over than under. As long as the excess hit is put into other stuff not much you can do.
    im sorry but your not doing it right if you are over the hit, its best to be at or near hit, and its ok to be a wee little under hit, but being over hit is a waste of stats you could use in other places

  12. #32
    I think everyone in our guild has started using hybrid gems with stamina on them in their blue sockets when the socket bonus calls for it. 3-5k more HP beats a bit of hit that does nothing.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by OrionAntares View Post
    That's my point. It shouldn't feel bad if the item is useful. The only reason it feels bad is because of a certain player's concepts on "sub-optimal". If the piece is the best you can get, it's the optimal piece for you even if some of those item points are unused. The only reason to feel bad about picking up loot is if you're hording it all away from the other people playing with you.

    OCD aside, this could actually be a planned issue. As far as we know, next tier (which is likely the last for this expansion) they might drop all or almost all hit from the gear and require that people gem, enchant, and reforge to meet their hit and expertise needs.
    As I said, it's like getting a lower level piece of gear. yes, that might still be a great piece of gear, but that 522 where a lot of the stat budget is wasted is effectively like a 516 or something. It's frustrating to waste part of the power on an item and not be able to do anything about it. It also makes me wonder about the people who allocate stats - my hunter's way over hit and expertise cap and if I upgraded my chest to the VP chest from the T15 LFR one I'd gain a lot more of both hit and expertise. Is it higher ilevel? Yes. Is it really a 522? No, since a ton of its power (stats) are wasted and cannot contribute to my DPS.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    As I said, it's like getting a lower level piece of gear. yes, that might still be a great piece of gear, but that 522 where a lot of the stat budget is wasted is effectively like a 516 or something. It's frustrating to waste part of the power on an item and not be able to do anything about it. It also makes me wonder about the people who allocate stats - my hunter's way over hit and expertise cap and if I upgraded my chest to the VP chest from the T15 LFR one I'd gain a lot more of both hit and expertise. Is it higher ilevel? Yes. Is it really a 522? No, since a ton of its power (stats) are wasted and cannot contribute to my DPS.
    Good way to illustrate it, with the ilvl degradation.

    Another reason to give just ONE stat: Accuracy

    Soft cap remains 7.5%+7.5% = 15%
    Tank/Hardcap = 22.5%

    Boom. One cap to juggle (not two). One "slot" on gear taken up, if present (no more Hit+Exp rolls). One Gem color (keep it blue).

    I see no downside, unless Blizz considers the tedium of balancing 2 stats with finite, static caps as ilvls continue to inflate, as "fun" or "intriguing" game decisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  15. #35
    Another issue is when two pieces of gear are closer in performance. For example, I have the 489 Fang Kung off Will of the Emperor in MSV. I upgraded it in 5.1 to a 497. A few weeks ago, LFR Tortos dropped the bow. It's a 502 and has 200 more DPS on it... but since it's laden with hit and expertise, it actually sims no better (and slightly worse in some cases) than my existing bow. So, yeah, gear that's a huge ilevel upgrade will still be worth it even if some of the stat budget is wasted, but gear that's close together may not be. Now, consider that some LFR pieces can be upgraded from 502 to 510.... you get a 522 drop. Usually 12 ilevels is huge, but the 522 has a ton of hit/exp. It's really a much smaller upgrade. Is that a HUGE deal? No. Is it disappointing. Yes.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Another issue is when two pieces of gear are closer in performance. For example, I have the 489 Fang Kung off Will of the Emperor in MSV. I upgraded it in 5.1 to a 497. A few weeks ago, LFR Tortos dropped the bow. It's a 502 and has 200 more DPS on it... but since it's laden with hit and expertise, it actually sims no better (and slightly worse in some cases) than my existing bow. So, yeah, gear that's a huge ilevel upgrade will still be worth it even if some of the stat budget is wasted, but gear that's close together may not be. Now, consider that some LFR pieces can be upgraded from 502 to 510.... you get a 522 drop. Usually 12 ilevels is huge, but the 522 has a ton of hit/exp. It's really a much smaller upgrade. Is that a HUGE deal? No. Is it disappointing. Yes.
    Actually that brings up another issue entirely. You are right that usually 12 ilvls is huge. That's a problem with this expansion right now is that ilvls are actually ballooning faster than in all the previous expansions. That is, as they have said, because they want the casual players to feel like they are getting upgrades over their previous gear with each patch release. It could be that the gear is having these stats include to curb that power creep because the majority of casual players are unlikely to notice or care about being over hit and expertise caps. They just got a shiny new 502 or 522 item.

  17. #37
    Be nice if reforging worked like the gear upgrade. Reforge it once to move some of a stat to another. Reforge it a second time to move even more.
    Or...maybe a choice when reforging "X" percentage and "Y" percentage.

  18. #38
    I have been hit and exp capped since I dinged 90, and I'm not sure if I even went under the cap while leveling.

    As a ret paladin I have had more problems with excess expertise than hit.
    Wh-what are you doing here!? G-go away!
    I don't want to see you anymore!
    Stay away from me!
    That's what Shi said.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrionAntares View Post
    Or you guys could just stop being so OCD about item points. For example, as has been said the feather is BIS for DKs for no other reason than the proc. That means all other trinkets are not as good even if they have usable passive stats on them and you are hit capped without the hit on the feather. You're "wasting" item points on the hit yet that trinket offers you the best possible DPS gain over any other existing trinket. You guys are just complaining because their are item points being "wasted" simply because you can't use them. The items may still be better than any other items that you have or that may be available. Treat it as you would any other stat you don't really want, it's there, you've pulled what you can from it, the item is still the best you have or can get, move on.

    So wrong. If it was just a little bit over the cap but it's not. After the gear upgrades and a few new items, I was able to balance my Hit down to 7.54%. A few weeks ago, I was sitting at 9% with nothing left to reforge. And as a Guardian who goes for the Expertise hard cap, I'm still a bit above. For anyone just wanting the 7.5% Expertise, it's retarded. And the thing is, that the stat points you waste, could have been used so much better. It basically devalues your item, cause you're wasting so many stat points.

    This is not about people randomly QQ'ing, it's about piss poor itemization - end of discussion.
    Last edited by Danishpsycho; 2013-05-24 at 02:32 AM.

  20. #40
    Over 2% above the cap on a ret pally and not even equipping the Ji-Kun hit trinket. Every possible piece of gear with hit has been reforged. I could as well replace the str+hit gems in blue sockets with str+stam for a little more hp.

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