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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    And OTOH, those that were attacked were deemed to be in a state of insurrection against the Kirin Tor and Dalaran.
    They were running around in fear, they musta been such a deadly threat
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  2. #262
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    Make the horde do all kinds of evil shit. Make garrosh the sole scapegoat. Kill scapegoat and horde is redeemed from their evil deeds.
    why is it every time you post something I want to drop kick a gnome over the stormwind gates on my draenei monk?

  3. #263
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    why is it every time you post something I want to drop kick a gnome over the stormwind gates on my draenei monk?
    Why is it that I really want to see that?

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Not all the orcs were under the demon blood's curse, such as Orgrim Doomhammer who refused to drink it. Some also drank it willingly, knowing what it meant. I wouldn't say the entirety of the orcish Horde are free from guilt in the actions that were taken and the atrocities that were committed. Burning Blade, cabals, and the Twilight Cult all have a strong share of orc representation. The night elves actually had the least appearances in any "bad" groups until Cataclysm.
    Except that the night elves had the Highborne/Naga in their history, what they did had gigantic consequences, basically all the shit happened in Azeroth from the War of the Ancients to the Third War is both direct and indirect responsibility of them and their surviving brethren (high elves).
    I don't know why you searched the stuff about orc history, because the Burning Blade have nothing to do with it, is just a cult of demon's worshipers, granted with some weak demonic powers as prize for their servitude, for this the cult had both races inside it, was not connected with the Blood Curse of Mannoroth. But talking of it, the orcs that drank the blood willingly didn't have a clear idea of what they would have become, there was just a promise of becoming "more powerful", which didn't automatically mean "you'll become a bloodthirsty monster", and when the more power-hungry chieftain, Grom, stepped forward, other like-minded chieftains did the same, with all their clans following, until what remained of the orcs accepted it, like the flock following the rest of itself. But essentially Gul'dan lied about both the true nature of the blood and the reason for which the draenei were a "threat".
    I'm not saying that the orcs are not responsible AT ALL for this, but they have no more, no less responsibility of the night elves about the Highborne (that were whismiscal and supremacist night elves that instead knew perfectly what they were doing, until the last detail) especially if we consider that many of the orcs that live nowdays are sons and daughters of the orcs that fought in the First and Second War, so their responsibility is even more waning.

    This implies the Silver Hand became the Scarlet Crusade. That's not entirely true. Some were members, many weren't, but they were initially founded with the sole purpose of driving the Scourge from Lordaeron; noble intentions, but infiltration of a Dreadlord tends to muck those up quickly.
    Sadly it's entirely true. Indeed, not all the members of the Scarlet Crusade were Silver Hand, but all the remaining Silver Hand became Scarlet Crusade. And anyway, all were humans. And no please, no "Dreadlord corrupted us" excuse. Balnazzar just manipulated in the direction he liked better the hate, the madness, even the jealousy born in the Crusade, and tried to kill any member that weren't blinded by it (like Morgraine).
    Isillien was not "manipulated", he was an utter son of a bitch that devoured by his hate discarded all for which he worked in his entire life, executing with pleasure any order the fake "Grand Crusader" gave to him.
    The only ones that maintained their sanity and goal were the Argent Dawn, but they were very few, and the organization became what it was thanks to the joining of other races members in their ranks, like forsaken, orcs, night elves, dwarves, tauren.

    The Forsaken were up to questionable activities before Wrath. The beginnings of the plague Putress used were seeds planted in Classic. Otherwise, I'll agree Horde/Alliance were basically both fairly on the up and up and just had squabbles with one another.
    Indeed, still Putress was a case similar to the Alliance villains (promptly discarded as traitor) mostly because the Forsaken always represented the lowest moral level of the Horde.

    You can't dismiss the multitude of orcs (and humans, and other races) in the Twilight Hammer if you're going to lump off a bunch of night elves for the druids of the flame.
    Benedictus was supposed to have a Horde counterpart in Aethas betraying the Horde, but they decided to shoe horn an Alliance problem into a foe for Thrall to take care of. Fandral I think most Alliance are okay with him being a villain. He was a jerk for years.
    I'm not dismissing them, simply i don't consider them because the Twilight's Hammer have all kind of races inside it, and all of them share the same weak and delusional attitude, they are morons that completely lost their heads shouting about the end of the world all the time, but for the most they are insignificant cannon fodder. The druids of the flame instead acted in a more right mind, they represented like an elite-branch of the Hammer, like Leyara that decided to turn his back to his people because of his personal losses and hate for Malfurion, going so far to desiring the whole world to burn. And Fandral followed the same trend, and there is no reason to belive that the other druids weren't like-minded loyalist of Staghelm, so they were not excatly insignificant crazy morons, but druids burning with hatred, that ensured Ragnaros powerful and important servants and a new Majordomo. I'm not saying they are worst of the moltitude of orcs and humans in the Hammer, simply they were much more important in the Hammer's plan, and so they deserve the "villain" title.
    Benedictus was intended in a way, but canon-wise he ended in another, and as the deo-facto leader of the Hammer after the death of Cho'gall, the argument is almost similar to the druids of the flame (had a major impact in the Hammer and Deathwing's plans).

    But you dismiss the fact that when you talk about the Horde, you do have to remember it splintered. The original Horde has given us plenty of villains in the Blackrock Orcs and the Armani trolls as well, both Horde members. The actions of the Dragonmaw shouldn't be ignored, and they've rejoined the Horde under Garrosh where they were once pretty much blacklisted by the Horde.
    Considering these facts it's not different at all by looking at the Highborne, the Eredar or the Dark Irons, all factions that weren't part of the respective races when those joined the Alliance, but still these are scars of their history (well, the Dark Irons reedemed themselves somehow...well, MAYBE) like those you described were not part of the new Thrall's Horde, but still it's a dark piece of their history. If you put attention on what i wrote, i talked of villains going from WC3 to Cataclysm, not the whole Warcraft history, since my argument was not to blame one or other faction, but only how the storyline gave to us more "Alliance villains" compared to Horde ones in such period. Plus, i personally don't consider the Amani true villains, they just joined the Horde for kicking the High Elf's asses and reclaiming the lands they felt the elves usurped, they weren't really interested in the grand Horde plan of domination.

    The rejoning of the Dragonmaw showed the same theme of the Highborne rejoined in night elf's society, "let's put a stone upon bad memories and be friends again".

    Arthas was indeed condemned by the Alliance, pretty much when he returned as a DK and assassinated his father. The problem was, there was little that could be done to organize any counter against him at that point. The Scourge was already on the verge of bringing down the kingdom, Arthas just sped things up. As for Uther and Jaina, there wasn't much they COULD do. The prince still had sovereign right of the kingdom and while Uther outranked him as a paladin, disbanding the Silver Hand resolved that rather quick. To actively stop him at that point would be an act of treason and there is also the debate over what else could have been done counter to Arthas' purge. (I love moral quandries with no "right" answer in stories).
    Well, i wanted to put the arguing about Arthas only regarding his actions as a human, because condemning him when he became a DK and assassinated his father was obvious, would have been complete madness if Lordaeron did otherwise. About the strength for fight him, well, that is another matter, they were surprisingly overwhelmed in their own home with their king dead. They were doomed.
    About Uther and Jaina, indeed they couldn't do much, the problem is that SOMETHING had to be done. Arthas has been harsh and a bit stupid into dismissing the Silver Hand and Uther, indeed, but the choice that Arthas took was the only rational, logical choice that ensured that an army of zombies originated by the second most populated city of Lordaeron didn't destroy it before he did it as a Death Knight later. Even Medivh said that Arthas's actions lessened the death's grip on Lordearon for the moment.
    So what Arthas did was the best thing he could do in that moment, but Jaina and Uther hadn't the guts for endure such a thing, that despite their ideals, the situation was so abnormal and particular compared to anything the human race faced that failed to understand what had to be done. About what Arthas did in Northrend until the end, well, that was the real journey to his downfall, the purge was just a "no choice" action that served to build Arthas's hate until the complete obsession (he hated Mal'ganis because he forced him to kill his own people for avoid a greater disaster).

    Arthas also sort of lost his soul. That's a black mark on the "use the light" thing as he was a Death Knight after taking up Frostmourne. He had full use of the Light prior to taking up Frostmourne. And again, the Scarlet Crusade's frenzy was also driven on by a Dreadlord too. You can't just simply ignore that.
    The Light is a power handled with personal willpower, and Arthas's one was slowly waning, especially after taking Frostmourne. Arthas wasn't 100% sure that anything he did was good and right, his doubts are expressed in the novel, still he continue his way because he somehow belives that is necessary for save his people (and obtaining his revenge).
    Again, the Dreadlord cannot be used as an excuse for justify the Crusade's actions, Balnazzar just manipulated them by taking possession of Dathrohan, and all that he did was giving orders and tricking people for lead his instruments to do what he wanted (like boosting Renault's jelaousy for convincing him to kill his father) he did nothing more to take control of an already twisted and depraved order, something that would never had happen with a true holy order. If they were corrupted by the Dreadlord, they would have use some kind of demonic magic, all of them, instead a lot of them use the Light, so completely mad to belive that all their actions are for the greatest and purest good.

    Again, not all members were Silver Hand paladins.

    So it's not as if the Alliance said the Scarlet Crusade were okay and not their problem.
    But again, the surviving Silver Hand joined all the Crusade, even the great Morgraine did so, so it's hard to belive that a lot of other Silver Hand members went somewhere else. After the death of Morgraine, the few the kept their minds in check and understood the growing corruption of the Order, fled and created the Argent Dawn.

    Yeah the Alliance said that they weren't their business since they were NOT okay, they knew of their extreme actions in the Plaguelands, like mass murdering innocents beliving they were "undead in disguise", and scared of such madness, they refused any kind of relationship with them.

    And this is indeed the problem. Blizzard goes from one end of the spectrum to the other, but there is definitely some strong areas for shades of gray with the belief of self righteousness to allow the Alliance a little more gritty approach to some things. Unfortunately, Blizzard writes them as pure good or batshit crazy evil with little in between.
    I agree. The little big problem is that it's very difficult to do so because too much gray would make the Alliance similar to the Horde, and too little gray in the Horde would make it too similar to the Alliance. So i think it's a game that requires some wise, but still not gamebreaking, development in the story.

    Examples?
    The Scarlet Crusade remains the predicted example because, as you said, not all of his members are ex-Silver Hand, many are just deluded ex-soldiers of Lordaeron manipulated by the Crusade's extreme ideals or by the promises of power and prestige of Dathrohan/Balnazzar, people that fell to the same path of blind hate and vengeance; is hardly belivable that they were bandits, pirates or bad people "by default", bandits cannot become fanatics, people that saw all the work of their life (like defending Lordaeron for all those years) shattered can indeed be consumed first by hatred, and then manipulated to do any kind of nasty thing.

    I like this description!
    /sarcasm ? lol

    I'd say Garrosh went from "survival" to doing what he felt necessary to make a BETTER life for his people. The path to hell is paved with good intentions.
    Except the fact Garrosh until now did questionable actions, not "evil, sadistic acts with good intentions", all that he did until now is evil by the Alliance's point of view, understandbly, but for the orcs is just a war that is needed to be win for ensure both their survival and their "freedom", because is this what Garrosh said to them for years, that they will never be "free" until the Alliance is not defeated, until the Horde will not ensure their supremacy to them, they were an enemy of the Horde for years that continuously "cornered" them in Durotar between night elves, humans (Northwatch and Tirigarde) even the dwarves of Bael Modan, and such enemy must be shattered to submission, before this enemy will inevitably destroy them; it's not hard to inject this mentality to a warrior-society like the orcish one. For this many orcs don't have much problems in fighting against the Alliance under Garrosh even if they are not "evulz" or "support him" in the very sense of the term, they just follow his orders, fighting a despised enemy, and they have to defeat it.
    It's not casual that all the most questionable, almost-evil actions, like murder and killing of their own allies (Vol'jin and the trolls) is done by the Kor'kron, for make a distinction between the common orc that fight his war against the Alliance like any good soldier, and those who are directly following Garrosh in his downfall, with direct involvement in the gathering of an Old God's heart and the experiments under Orgrimmar.
    Ofcourse this doesn't mean that the Alliance would just forgive the orcish race for all these years of aggressive war, but that's it's just their point of view, and indeed should be a decent fuel for a bitter cold war after MoP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Did you play Cataclysm? Daelin was actually proved right.
    No he was not, because Daelin had only hate and grudge against the orcs, and attacked them first, completely unprovoked, with the goal of crush them to the ground, because they were the same identical "monsters" that did all the bad things in the last wars. In Cataclysm the orcs are just fighting a war with more aggressiveness due to Hellscream's leadership, but the Alliance was already in war with the Horde, it is not that the orcs brutally attacked a poor and peaceful faction minding it's own businesses.
    Daelin's stereotyped despise was not better of Garrosh's one, maybe even a little worse.

    The "questionable" activities in Vanilla don't count - why?
    Which ones? Random fighting your beloved faction here and there? That is called "war", you know. A cold war, for be precise, so no one started an open conflict, just a side biting occasionl the other.


    Stormwind alone lost 50,000 dead fighting Arthas. Hard to argue they agree with him.
    I intended the human Arthas, because is the only, still strained, comparison possibile with the orc Garrosh, Arthas as a death knight or Lich King doesn't absolutely enter in the argument.

    Yeah. The Alliance has welcomed into its ranks demons, undead and cursed savages. They are of course, racist bigots for doing so.
    You're making a "suitable" mistake, because you're using Arthas as a soul-stolen death knight, mind-controlled and obviously servant of the Burning Legion, that returned in his kingdom slaying his own people and turning them in zombies, for say that the Alliance as a people is better of the Horde because they didn't follow him while the orcs follow Garrosh, and is a terrible, laughable argument, the Alliance would have been a bunch of retarded imbeciles if they followed Arthas after such events. But Arthas became so evil because he was "chosen" by Ner'zhul as the most suitable body for the Lich King, and so carefully brought into a path that lead to his inevitable transformation into a death knight. What Arthas did as an uncorrupted but flawed human counts, and what he did is no worse at all of what any fucking member of the Crusade did, probably many of them did even worst things.

    No...they weren't. What remained of the Silver Hand eventually got folded into the Argent Crusade.
    False. Even a great paladin like Morgraine was a Scarlet Crusader, initially. When the corruption inside the order became clear, due to Morgraine that died betrayed, those who abandoned the Crusade became the Argent Dawn, which became a mix of different races, while the Scarlet Crusade was just made of humans.
    The Argent Dawn became half of the Argent Crusade, the other half was the "new" Silver Hand that Tirion personally trained, probably.

    That's quite a twisted set of reasons and one that contradicts the actual in game evidence. The Alliance has individuals that are bad. That are evil. That are racist. But the values of the Alliance, and the values most of its people hold dear and have fought and even died for are not. You are trying to tar the entire faction with the deed of individuals. "Arthas was evil therefore millions of other humans must also be evil" is a false argument but its the one you are making. "The Alliance is evil - they just hide it better" is similarly dubious.
    Still, you're amusingly pretending Arthas as a unique beacon of evilness because you watch at him like a death knight, instead you must look at him as a sane, damn human. And as an uncorrupted but only obsessed, hate consumed human, none in the Scarlet Crusade was better than him, as we saw it in WoW. NONE.

    Isillien was a gigantic son of a bitch, still has not been necessary use Frostmourne to steal his soul for have such a bastard. And this ass was one of the greatest priests of Lordearon, before the Scourge came, and other crusaders aswell acted like bloodthirsty monsters, no better of the blood-cursed orcs of the Old Horde, due to their maddened zealotry and rampant hate.
    I'm not saying that the Alliance's values are bad, but these values can be taken by the worst individuals to justify horrible acts, in name of some supposed good, sometimes a foolish convintion, other times simply an excuse.

    The ideals of the Alliance are essentially a double-edged blade, that can shape the greatest and holy heroes, and the worst villains. Tirion himself, a human, says that he gave up to judging people by races because in his life saw both orcs fight with heroism and honorably and fellow humans doing cowardice and horrible deeds. This doesn't mean orc=good, human=bad, but simply that good and evil can grow everywhere, for different reasons for different races.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-05-29 at 12:23 AM.

  5. #265
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellerix View Post
    Why is it that I really want to see that?
    An average monk kicking with there feet, that might just knock them back. A Draenei or Tauren kicking with there hooves.. thats going to leave a hoof print on there ass.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    An average monk kicking with there feet, that might just knock them back. A Draenei or Tauren kicking with there hooves.. thats going to leave a hoof print on there ass.
    Actualy, thats going to leave them with their own ribs impaling their vital organs or fragments of their skull giving them quite a primitive version of lobotomy.

    Nothing wrong with that of course, they are just gnomes.

  7. #267
    Legendary! Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Actualy, thats going to leave them with their own ribs impaling their vital organs or fragments of their skull giving them quite a primitive version of lobotomy.

    Nothing wrong with that of course, they are just gnomes.
    And because of that you should avoid any direct contact due to risk of FAIL contamination. Use flamethrower instead.

  8. #268
    Quick answer is they don't.

    The Ko'Kron are the Nazis and the Orcs are the German people (for lack of a better reference.) Not every German was a Nazi so Not every Orc was involved with the actions of the Kor'Kron.

    Besides Blood elves got over Kael'thas. Veteran players know in early BC they still used to salute him within Silvermoon now he is a cautionary tale. Lets just hope we don't see a Orcish Blob try to ressurect Y'Shaarj's true form in 5.5.

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