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  1. #1
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    Patch 5.4 Vengeance Change, BG Healer Balancing Disabled, May 22 Hotfixes, Blue Posts

    A Few Hours Left of the Anniversary Buff, Matching System for Public Games, Sword of Justice Trade Paperback, ChromeOnRust: How Magic Find Works

    Patch 5.4 Vengeance Change
    Ghostcrawler talked about a potential change to how Vengeance works in Patch 5.4 last week, as well as answering a few questions about it.


    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Please don't do this. I do not wish to be made back into a simple meatshield. Staying alive and doing good damage is fun.
    Your damage will still be fine and higher than pre Vengeance. Tanks don't need to win meters IMO. (Source)

    Who benefits from this change? dps who like topping metres?
    Healers who don't have to contend with tanks sitting in fires? (Source)

    If all that loot didn't get people running 25 mans why do you think vengeance will? I don't get it man honestly.
    It's not intended as a 25 perk. The environments are different in terms of DPS and require different numbers. (Source)

    I think it's in addition to the PvP nerf tanks are getting theyre working hard to balance PvP and it's PvE
    It's not a PvP issue. It's some protection against tanks doing unusual or goofy things to increase their AP to unintended levels. (Source)

    Why do you want to make tanking more difficult? I would think with few tanks and healers you would want to make it easier.
    Do some quick calculations. Do your tanks hit those numbers regularly without doing things like solo tanking? (Source)
    If that's your reasoning I guess I understand it. If your goal is to make solo tanking harder this will do it.
    We do want to make solo tanking harder on fights intended for 2 tanks. Solo tanking is fun to a degree, but it shouldn't be the right answer to increase DPS or mitigation. (Source)
    Just want to point out that this change would hurt 10m far more than 25m though, compounding factors involved. I really don't understand why you think the cap in 25m should be higher than 10m even with higher tank damage.
    Tanks are a greater percent of damage done in 10s. 1 per 4 DPS rather than 1 per 7 or so in 25s. Which means tanks should care more about their damage in 10s than in 25s which is odd. And because tanks do get hit harder in 25s they need more Vengeance to translate to higher active mitigation. So we think the pitch is sound on those fronts. Where it runs into trouble is that tanks don't have the same health. When the cap is lower, high health tanks will just have higher Vengeance. Furthermore, mitigation not based on Vengeance, such as Death Strike, just become more powerful at the cap. These are problems we'd have to solve if we go through with it, but there should be lots of PTR testing for 5.4. (Source)

    Seems like a 180 from what you preached awhile ago, awhen you were fine with it. Why the change in philosophy?
    Tank DPS will still be quite high even with this change. Wait for some players to estimate numbers. (Source)

    I can't understand, why tanks dps was affected by this feature, if you could have just buffed threat directly.
    We like for tank damage to be relevant, and for active mitigation to scale. Vengeance provides all of that in addition to threat. Having huge threat modifiers on low damage abilities was also something tank complained about constantly. It may bug DPS players to get out DPSd by a tank, which is understandable, but that happened in dungeons way before Vengeance. Overall Vengeance still solves a lot more problems than it creates. (Source)

    Perhaps the source of vengeance needs to be looked at. Im not sure the complexity but can ground aoe not give it
    Yes. We are going to start flagging certain ground mechanics to not give Venegance. (Source)

    Random Battleground Healer Balancing Disabled
    It looks like the long queue times were being caused by the new balancing system.



    Patch 5.3 Hotfixes - May 22
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    General
    • Players that die and release around the Seat of Knowledge area will now be provided with a Spectral Gryphon (Wisp for Night Elves) or a Spectral Wyvern; allowing them to fly back to their bodies.

    Classes

    Druid (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    • Talents
      • Force of Nature: Balance Treant should be more responsive while chain casting. The global cooldown on their version of Wrath has been reduced to 0.5 seconds, down from 1.5 seconds.
      • Force of Nature: Restoration Treant should no longer cause their target to Taunt enemies.

    Priest (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    • Shadow
      • Vampiric Embrace should now split healing amongst multiple allied targets by the proper amount.

    Shaman (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    • General
      • Healing Rain area-of-effect now should cap properly at 6 targets.
    • Talents

    Warlock (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    • General
      • Demonic Gateway now should correctly gain charges while the Warlock is mounted or on a passenger mount.
      • Siphon Life should now heal for the proper amount for Warlocks that have the Fel Armor passive ability.
    • Glyphs

    Quests
    • Enemy at the Gates: Fixed an issue where players were unable to ride the War Serpent.

    Pet Battles
    • Fabled Pandaren Pet Supplies should now always contain a Lesser Pet Treat.

    Pet Battles
    • Scenarios
      • Secrets of Ragefire: Fixed an issue where certain situations could cause the Scenario to get stuck on Stage 3.

    Items
    • Enchant Weapon - Spirit of Conquest is now soulbound.
    • Enchant Weapon - Bloody Dancing Steel is now soulbound.

    Battlefield: Barrens
    • Kor'kron Commanders are now non-faction specific multi-tap for all characters that attack them.

    Blue Posts
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Elite Gear and Rating Requirements
    Don't worry, elite gear tied to rating is coming back next season.
    As I understand it, this is indeed the current plan. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    Talent Choice Simplicity
    Well. To be fair, a lot of people never look up how to spec their characters, and so in those cases the old system probably felt slightly more dynamic. Unfortunately what they didn't know is that their choices were probably wrong. But maybe they don't care that their choices were wrong and their character was suboptimal - that's an honest way to play a game. Not everyone wants to ensure their character is maximizing its output, and it's the look and feel of the system that's more important than its actual effect.

    That said, the new trees are still superior in offering competing options and each one can change up how your character plays, and differentiate it from someone else. If you look at build guides these days the suggestions for talents are usually just breakdowns on how each one works and which ones work better in what situations. There generally aren't any clear cut builds because most choices are viable depending on what you're doing. Obviously everyone is going to have favorites, but the fact that talent builds are a discussion instead of a map on how to place points, I think it's worked out quite well.

    I'll add in the caveat that it's not perfect, some trees don't offer great options, some options aren't taken very often, and those are things we'll continue to tweak. Overall though we're quite happy with how the new trees have hit the goals we set forth. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    Conquest Point Catch Up
    I've not even done arena on this char in this season, and my cap is only 10k.
    This is because the catch up system doesn't function as is explained in the opening post of this thread. The cap you mentioned in your post is actually correct if you have not earnt any Conquest points yet this season, because we are in week 10. The formula is as follows (As Russlad said):

    (Week of season x 1000) - Conquest already earned. = Conquest cap

    If the result of this equation is a negative or below your normal weekly cap, this means that your Conquest cap will be calculated as it would any other normal week.

    If you weren't 90 during those weeks you missed don't get any extra points from what I understand. Seems kinda buggy, my SP that has missed loads of weeks didn't get a bigger cap either but granted it has full gear.
    This is incorrect. If a character dinged level 90 this week, their cap would be the same as a character that has been level 90 since patch 5.2 but has not earned any Conquest points this season. You do not miss out on cap for weeks of the season that you were not level 90 for. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    Blue Tweets
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Future
    Please dont nerf flying because of a small minority sport like world pvp.
    We like the MoP solution for now - no flying while leveling with some no fly zones on top of that. (Source)

    Consider adding a LFD-style bag system to LFR. Dps get shorter queues, tanks and healers get occasional rewards. Everyone wins
    We might. (Source)

    How long do you think your expansion design methodology (new continent, new class/race, 3 new herbs/ores/cloth) can last?
    I think players want to see some new gameplay too and not just new iterations of the things they've seen before. (Source)
    Even if they aren't for you, challenge modes, pet battles, the farm, scenarios were all new types of ways to spend time. (Source)

    Not saying it’s bad, I like it…just feels totally different.
    The 5.0 talent design will stick around for awhile. We agree that leveling is missing frequent rewards though. (Source)
    The *current* talent design feels pretty solid to us. We'll iterate but no overhaul plans. #famouslastwords (Source)

    Why not spend time optimizing existing game systems like crafting instead of adding new systems that eat up developer time?
    Ideally we try to do a little of both. Some players get bored of the old systems even if they are very well polished. (Source)

    A patch used to include dungeons and raids, not a patch is just balance and dailies.
    Dragon Soul came with few new boss models and virtually no new architecture because of the 3 dungeons included in that patch. (Source)
    By contrast, Throne of Thunder has a lot of new boss models and a lot of architecture. It came at the expense of no dungeons. (Source)
    Is there a happy medium? Can we do both? Perhaps. It's something we will work on in the future. (Source)
    Now granted many players enjoyed the heck out of those dungeons. But others were quite candid about the raid. (Source)
    This makes me believe that dungeons take a lot more effort than many peeps realize. oO Loved the Eternity one.
    The architecture (the physical dungeon) takes a very long time. The encounters take time too, but usually less. (Source)
    You can mitigate that by doing outdoor dungeons, but it's easy to overdo those. (Source)
    Why can't the scenario team work on dungeons instead? Can't stand scenarios as healer; even in guild as disc.
    Good dungeons require a lot of art. (Source)

    ICC had new boss models, a lot of arche AND dungs. And you were going to hire more people since 4 years ago
    We could only do that because the previous tier had a rather small raid and dungeon (that are not universally loved). (Source)
    We could delay patches more in order to have more content per patch. Not sure that's the right answer either. (Source)
    Could also hire more, which we are trying to do. That's a slow solution though unless you're willing to sacrifice quality. (Source)
    Couldn't you combine Scenarios with 5 man logic and use existing environment? Same for raids?
    We could, yes. Concern would be that players may view that as rehashed content and not the "real" dungeons they were looking for. (Source)

    I hope you guys understand the no new 5 mans announcement, non-queueing for heroic scenarios, etc. drive away casual players.
    We're not sure that just 1-3 new dungeons provides content for players for very long. Even Magister's I didn't run 30-40 times. (Source)

    tri-spec won't happen, fine... Where are the proving grounds? A whisper in the wind.
    Working on them. But when we talk about unannounced features too much they tend to become "promises." Just the way it goes. (Source)

    Why not use scenario to show progress in the stories in EK/Kalimdor? Like scenario showing the war in Ashenvale/Gilneas?
    That would be cool. Currently our scenarios are focused on recent events, but the possibility certainly exists. (Source)

    Will an item level squish affect our ability to solo older content? If it doesn't, I have no problem with it.
    The goal is it will not affect your ability to solo older content. (Source)
    Squish is useless, because it just delays the inevitable. Numbers will get out of hand again. Regular squishs inc?
    Maybe? With the squish we had planned for MoP, we wouldn't need to do it again for 2-3 expansions. Every 1 might feel weird. (Source)

    Any plans to impelement an in game voice communication? You need other software to play any serious pve/pvp. Isn't that weird?
    Would love to do it, but it's one of those solutions that you have to get right and we certainly did not with our first attempt. (Source)

    Icy Veins Class Guides 5.3 Update
    Icy Veins has updated their class guides for Patch 5.3, as well as having them reviewed by top players of each class.


  2. #2
    Treants work properly now, and I am SO happy.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Steampunk's Avatar
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    I peeked in to see what was on the horizon and I suddenly realized how sick I am of being slapped in the face for being a tank by the game.

    Maybe time for me to go DPS or learn to appreciate PvP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Basmothel
    Lacking ammo, the forum troll darts into the realm of personal insults and doomsaying; the most primitive means of gaining attention from its peers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyadore View Post
    You know something, none of us ruined the game. We make it better. And so do most of you.

  5. #5
    This is annyoing, I don't see the problem with having bosses solotanked, and tank dps wasn't a problem since it's only one person/raid anyhow.

    However I do agree that ground effects/avoidable dmg should not increase your vengeance, but I don't think a flat nerf to the cap is the right way to go.

  6. #6
    Nobody cares if the tank is number 1 in dps. When I look at our meters I look from 2nd down. I just ignore the tank. Who are these whiny insecure dps?

  7. #7
    Get this issue some spotlight:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4717611?page=2

    Very annoying, needs to be fixed asap.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthraxx View Post
    Get this issue some spotlight:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4717611?page=2

    Very annoying, needs to be fixed asap.
    They are aware and working on it.

  9. #9
    I know they do, but if more people/sites like this complain there is a chance it will be pushed up the to do list.

  10. #10
    Stood in the Fire Tybudd33's Avatar
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    Who benefits from this change? dps who like topping metres?
    Healers who don't have to contend with tanks sitting in fires? (Source)
    OMG I'm tired of these dumb ass'd nerfs and these dumb ass'd reasons for doing so. So because you have some eager tanks out there ignoring fight mechanics to continue there rotation, means that the rest of the tanks should suffer?

    Those same players that stand in fire as tanks are the same players that would stand in the fire as dps, it isn't the Role that is being played that is causing this to be an issue.

    So with this same logic, what would you do to dps to stop them from standing in the fire to "help the healers"???

    I'm sorry, but I normally bite my tongue so to speak but stupid sarcastic answers like this pisses me off, especially when you take satisfaction away from something that wasn't hurting anyone.

    For example their dungeon tool gained from this in cata when vengeance changed because believe it or not, people respond to numbers and that is why so many more tanks transfered over from dps, what you think this is going to result in?

  11. #11
    Couldn't you combine Scenarios with 5 man logic and use existing environment? Same for raids?
    We could, yes. Concern would be that players may view that as rehashed content and not the "real" dungeons they were looking for.
    I don't get it. The environment is "rehashed" regardless of whether it's a dungeon or a scenario. Why is it okay to apply it to one and not the other?

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans Snes's Avatar
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    Icy Veins is the best for class guides, glad to have found them after years of scouring through disorganized EJ pages

  13. #13
    How many times can they change Vengeance?

  14. #14
    YES! Vengeance change!
    I was so frustrated when I started to see tanks overdps everyone. Tanks should tank, dps should dps.
    Actually I understand tanks dont want to be just a piece of meat to kick, Blizzard should try to make tanks do same dps as dps-classes do, maybe slightly less less, but not more.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ssviolett View Post
    YES! Vengeance change!
    I was so frustrated when I started to see tanks overdps everyone. Tanks should tank, dps should dps.
    Actually I understand tanks dont want to be just a piece of meat to kick, Blizzard should try to make tanks do same dps as dps-classes do, maybe slightly less less, but not more.
    as you said, the dps shuld dps, why dont start dps'ing then? do what you shuld do, and now QQ over the dps..

    tbh, as a tank, its FUN to have some competative dps.. its FUN to see some numbers while tanking..

    and now they gonna ruin it..
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  16. #16
    I really cannot understand why you whine for the vengeance change. What is the problem, really? I am sure that if that make tanks unplayable, they will balance it somehow. I have not seen ONE come out and say "this change will break our tanking in <that> way". Something concrete instead of crying?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ssviolett View Post
    YES! Vengeance change!
    I was so frustrated when I started to see tanks overdps everyone. Tanks should tank, dps should dps.
    Actually I understand tanks dont want to be just a piece of meat to kick, Blizzard should try to make tanks do same dps as dps-classes do, maybe slightly less less, but not more.
    Who gives a fuck if the tanks are outdpsing everyone. You should see it as a good thing; your raid is getting a lot of extra dps making fights a lot easier. If you have a paladin tank, it's a double bonus since you have a lot of heals going out.

    But no, it seems like people care more about their own ego than the actual ability of their raid as a whole, and they would rather see fights become harder as a result of tank nerfs than tanks doing high dps on tough fights.

    Apparently, damage dealers are not satisfied with tanks being screwed out of Brawler's Guild and PvP.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 05:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    I really cannot understand why you whine for the vengeance change. What is the problem, really? I am sure that if that make tanks unplayable, they will balance it somehow. I have not seen ONE come out and say "this change will break our tanking in <that> way". Something concrete instead of crying?
    If you would actually read the thread regarding the topic on the official WoW tank forums, you would see actual problems with this change. On high damage fights i.e. heroics, it may be a really big problem. It is also a much unneeded change and will only result in stamina having a much higher value (it is already the highest value stat by far for Paladins at least), and average raid dps on heroic fights becoming lower.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    Who gives a fuck if the tanks are outdpsing everyone. You should see it as a good thing; your raid is getting a lot of extra dps making fights a lot easier. If you have a paladin tank, it's a double bonus since you have a lot of heals going out.

    But no, it seems like people care more about their own ego than the actual ability of their raid as a whole, and they would rather see fights become harder as a result of tank nerfs than tanks doing high dps on tough fights.

    Apparently, damage dealers are not satisfied with tanks being screwed out of Brawler's Guild and PvP.
    So, your concern is the extra dps the raid will lose, making encounter more difficult? Well I am sure they will balance it. Besides, not DPS gets more pressure to cover tank damage loss! Really no need to cry. UNLESS... you feel good being up there in the meters which makes you like the selfish DPS you are describing...

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 10:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 05:08 PM ----------

    [/COLOR]

    If you would actually read the thread regarding the topic on the official WoW tank forums, you would see actual problems with this change. On high damage fights i.e. heroics, it may be a really big problem. It is also a much unneeded change and will only result in stamina having a much higher value (it is already the highest value stat by far for Paladins at least), and average raid dps on heroic fights becoming lower.
    Exactly! Stamina should have been higher in value! You are tanks. I am sick on seeing tanks hunting non-tanking stats in gear and still be effective. This is not normal. I understand that they made tanks gameplay more interesting by adding the active mitigation (was a DK tank before all this happen to the rest of the tanks) but they still overdid it.

    We have paladin tank in our guild that stacked haste like no tomorrow. We actually disenchanted any item with "tanking stats" on it! He even claimed priority on horidon's heroic trinket! You know... the haste one? Well, we reached tortos... and guess what? His haste setup was not that good against aoe tanking. And we could not use him there effectively. I can sure say that he can shove his precious dps gear up his ... a$$

  19. #19
    Herald of the Titans Syridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunk View Post
    I peeked in to see what was on the horizon and I suddenly realized how sick I am of being slapped in the face for being a tank by the game.

    Maybe time for me to go DPS or learn to appreciate PvP.
    If the main reason you enjoyed tanking, was your DPS, then you didn't enjoy tanking. Make a damage dealer instead.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Syridian View Post
    If the main reason you enjoyed tanking, was your DPS, then you didn't enjoy tanking. Make a damage dealer instead.
    the vengeance change is another stupid design decision, they should actually be beyond that after all these years *sigh

    I especially find the reasoning complete bullshit, if a guild decides to let the tank stand in dmg effects to gain veng stacks, than this puts a strain on the healer, right -> but if they(healers) can't handle it no guild will do it -> no reason to force a design on the player when the freedom of choice fixes all that stuff already!!!

    standing there as the meatshield and being fisted while usingonly threat skills brings the tank back to the days where nobody wanted to play the class, because it was so dull and unsatisfying...
    I even don't understand whining dps, because they will always top the meters over tank dmg on single target occasions... if not they're doing it wrong

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