"In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)
Blizzard devs you are on the way to lose more subs. Great job!
If you fu**k up with tanks they will get less fun from the game, and again set more weight on the healers... That means less tanks -> longer queues (do you remember in RF when we are waiting for a tank?) -> 2-3hrs waiting for 26g... no thx. -> loosing subs. -> people realize this game is not the most popular so they will leave too...
Most of the tanks cannot manage their role... and with these changes far less decent tanks will be.
Soloing is really fun in that game nowadays, and now you try to destroy that too... shame on you.
I am in a casual guild (10man raiding). But one of our main tanks will change to dps before 5.4, and we need to find a "good" tank before 5.4... How Blizzard? HOW?
I have got characters on 3 realms, and those realms have got at all 5 guild with 25 raiding. 5! You killed the 25 raiding teams, now make harder the 10 man content with this... Well done!
-It provides incentive for people to play Tank (it is still an underplayed role WITH vengeance). Without vengeance, there would really be no fun in tanking; you would do negligible dps on every fight and there wouldn't be very many little tricks that could be pull off to make a fight just that small amount smoother (since many rely on vengeance)
-It provides extra survivability when it is needed. More attack power equals magnified absorption and self-healing effects. This really matters on tough fights. Removing vengeance will make many fights a lot harder, even undoable. I actually kind of wish they do it a lot so that people suddenly realize what good vengeance does for them.
-The extra raid DPS matters. Think of all the fights where you beat the boss by only a few seconds; Imagine not having upwards of 100k or more extra raid DPS from one or both of the tanks. Once again, fights become a lot harder
-It is a balancing factor for tanks. High-vengeance DPS levels put tanks well into the 100k range, but base DPS actually varies quite a bit between the classes. Prot paladins, for example, might seem to do well with their 100k dps or so, but at 0 vengeance, our DPS barely escapes the 20k range (hence why we are totally screwed out of Brawler's Guild and PvP, and why questing is an absolute pain). This puts us at a great disadvantage to other tanks, but vengeance effectively solves it by increasing our damage to such a point that the variation is negligible.
So, having one or two tanks in the raid doing high DPS is win-win, unless you are really egotistical. Your raid gets a lot of extra DPS on high damage fights, i.e. where it counts, and you can't exactly go in with 10 tanks, leaving everyone else out. So yes, when you see a tank doing very high dps, you should be very happy that your total raid dps is raised by a considerable margin.
These days, the challenge in tanking does not stem from holding threat, but from where it really should be; managing incoming damage not only adequately, but optimally. This means swapping talents between fights, cooldown management, developing personal strategies for dealing with harder fights, keeping vengeance in mind when using particular abilities such as absorbs and heals, etc. If you think tanking these days is nothing but button mashing for free dps, you simply have not played tank, at least on harder fights.
The balancing that will have to occur in response to this change simply emphasizes how unnecessary this change is; there are many cons, but pretty much no pros. All the balancing they would have to do would simply not need to be done if they didn't go ahead with the change, or if they made the caps at more reasonable values.
It is quite a rubbish argument to say that we are the ones being selfish here; on most fights, we don't top dps anyway. It is kind of fun doing 140k dps or so, but I'm not overly proud of it because I know that I am getting it from vengeance; I am proud of doing 140k on my hunter because I know that is actually my own good execution of the class. I am simply saying that you need to look at this from the perspective of not individuals trying to down a boss, but a whole raid trying to. ANYONE doing very high dps should be seen as a good thing, as it means the boss fight will be smoother. DPS is DPS, whether a damage dealer or a tank does it. At the end of the day, the boss is being downed faster and no one should give a shit, but many DPS are that egotistical that they think potentially game-breaking changes should be undergone to prevent tanks from doing high dps on some fights. When you value your own DPS ranking more than the competence of a raid as a whole, you do not appreciate raiding properly and you should change your mentality regarding it.
Severe misunderstanding of the paladin class. Haste has a very high value as a mitigation stat; we are NOT taking it because it gives us more dps. The DPS gain from haste is non-trivial at best. However, if you compare the relative values with respect to mitigation of all the stats, both haste and mastery come out on top BY FAR over dodge and parry, as does reaching the hit and expertise caps. This is why we are taking what is apparently 'dps gear'; the fact that we cannot bonus roll for the said gear, nor do we see the stats on our tier, doesn't mean it is not good gear for us. Blizzard, for whatever reason, doesn't want Paladins taking haste and excludes it from our tier and non-set epics, but if you take the initiative to actually compare the stat values and find out which is the most helpful, as some have, it is found that Blizzard is in fact wrong and you should be taking those pieces that you weren't intended to have.Exactly! Stamina should have been higher in value! You are tanks. I am sick on seeing tanks hunting non-tanking stats in gear and still be effective. This is not normal. I understand that they made tanks gameplay more interesting by adding the active mitigation (was a DK tank before all this happen to the rest of the tanks) but they still overdid it.
We have paladin tank in our guild that stacked haste like no tomorrow. We actually disenchanted any item with "tanking stats" on it! He even claimed priority on horidon's heroic trinket! You know... the haste one? Well, we reached tortos... and guess what? His haste setup was not that good against aoe tanking. And we could not use him there effectively. I can sure say that he can shove his precious dps gear up his ... a$$
Haste has value as a tank stat because of three things: the talent Sacred Shield, and a passive ability called Sanctity of Battle, and the global cooldown
-Sacred shield is a 30 second buff that provides an absorbing shield every 6 seconds, lasting 6 seconds or until the maximum amount of damage is absorbed. Haste increases the frequency of the shield application. At 18% haste, instead of the shield being applied every 6 seconds, it is applied every 4.6 seconds. This results in a greater overall net damage reduction from the absorption. Vengeance also incidentally increases the amount of damage absorbed.
-Sanctity of Battle causes our haste to reduce our ability cooldowns; including our holy power generators (crusader strike/hammer of the righteous, and judgement). This gives us higher holy power generation, and thus a higher uptime of Shield of the Righteous. Shield of the Righteous is a 3 sec buff given by the spell of the same name (which requires 3 holy power to cast) which reduces our physical damage taken by 25% (which is further increased by mastery).
-Haste reduces our global cooldown, once again resulting in greater holy power generation
The result of higher haste is a smoother damage intake overall. This is in contrast with an avoidance build (the "tank" stats: dodge and parry) which results in a spikier, more unpredictable damage intake. As mentioned before, it all essentially revolves around Shield of the Righteous. This is the same reason why capping hit and expertise is one of our highest priorities, which is yet another reason to ignore avoidance gear. Your paladin tank was right for tanking the spark trinket (i also have the trinket) and the haste gear, and his inability to tank tortos is not due to the haste build.
Also, tanks standing in fires for vengeance rarely actually happens. A tank worth his salt would never do it on a fight where damage intake was already an issue, and otherwise it would only really be worth risking it if the tank knows that the healers are reliable and can guarantee survival. Surviving reliably is the absolute priority, but if we can reasonably and reliably sacrifice for a good amount of extra DPS, why not?
Also, the vengeance cap with this change will be around 200k for most tanks. This is a level not usually seen, so tanks will STILL be standing in stuff on certain occasions to increase dps...the only way this really affects tanking is on harder, high-damage-intake fights where we DO see values of 200k. In other words, the change not only fails to address what it was intended to, but it also backfires and hurts tanks, and thus raiding, overall.
If the current model of vengeance allowed for raids to be done with all prot paladins, people would already be doing it. There is a good reason it is not done, and I described it before. In a normal raid, the prot paladin has X average vengeance. With a raid of 10 prot paladins, one of those will have X average vengeance, and the other 9 will have minimal vengeance and thus minimal damage and healing. The huge majority of vengeace comes from melee attacks.