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  1. #1

    10m Guild DPS a little low(Logs)

    So my 10 man guild just formed up from a bunch of friends that all have returned from the game very recently.
    Last night we decided to attempt to start our progression through ToT. Attempts were going pretty decently on Horridon
    and we were managing to consistently get to the third door.

    After looking over things it feels like our groups DPS is a little too low for their respective ilvls. Do you guys mind taking a look
    and letting us know what's going wrong? or post a resource so I can learn how to properly read logs so I can try to figure it out myself?

    worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-01pbj6v3nm0rykqs/dashboard/?enc=bosses&boss=68476

    There are the logs from the Horridon fights. They also contain logs from ToES and Jin'rokh from the same night.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-01...=13103&e=13501 as a link.

    Your DPS is ok. Not awesome, but looking at the middle attempts after you'd seen the fights a few times it's OK. The folks in the middle need to improve some, either by getting better gear or using abilities better, but they're not terrible.

    The things that will hurt you here are not focusing on the elite adds, focusing on Horridon and not interrupting/dispelling. It's not a good fight to judge DPS on since there's a lot of moving, interrupting, target switching, etc. Getting on the elites quickly,having the add tank efficiently collect adds and hold them etc will help especially your melee.

    Do NOT compare your raid DPS to Horridon kills since you get a huge DPS buff on Horridon and that distorts the raid dps. I've done 70k up to the last phase and finished with an overall DPS of 110k.

    There are a bunch of Horridon threads already so please look those over for fight advice.

    For DPS analysis what I like to do is look at 2 main things to see if a DPS knows what to do and is doing it: CD usage and dot uptime. Take the cooldown on a key ability that has a CD. For example, on my SV Hunter, Explosive SHot should be used as much as possible. It has a 6 second CD. On a five minute fight (300 secs), I can use it maybe 48-50 times (depending on if it's my very first shot, etc). If I had, say, 44 or 45 of them, that's very good especially on a movement heavy fight. If I had 35, that's bad. Similarly, my Serpent Sting dot should be up as much as possible, ideally 100%. 90% is OK. 70% would not be OK.

    So, your hunter on the 6'38" attempt had 58 Explosive shots (37 hits, 21 crits). That's one every 6.86 seconds... pretty good for a movement fight. Serpent Sting was up 87% of the time. Again, good, again has some room for improvement.

    You can see this here: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-01...=13103&e=13501

    In general, in WoL pick a fight, click the player's name and then click the Damage By Spell tab to see this kind of a view.

    There's much more to analyzying DPS especially in a fight where there's a lot of movement, target swtiching and interrupts... but what you want is to see people doing the right things and improving over time as they get a feel for the fight. If my Explosive Shot use sucked the first couple of attempts but, as I got used to the mechanics, I got better and better at using it that's good. If I didn't not good.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-05-23 at 09:28 PM.

  3. #3
    Thank you very much.

    Our biggest issue came on door three with just getting overwhelmed by adds. We were typically downing the first stand add before the group of two dropped in but once that happened things just sort of fell apart. I did see that some people suggest lusting on this door so we will be trying that for a few attempts.

    The first and second door went very smoothly with little to no venom adds on most fights but it just felt like our dps couldn't push through the third door. Thanks again for the advice on how to look at the logs.

  4. #4
    Well, as a tank, the first thing that stands out to me is how low dps your tanks are doing. Checking the last horridon kill I did setting the fight duration from first gate to third gate to function together with yours, I basically did 100% more damage than both tanks together. Your other dpsers are not horrible. The druid could be higher but I am guessing he is a healer OS? Other than that the dpsers could be doing 15-20% more damage yes, but it is nothing impossible.

    Just focus on not standing in shit, interrupting and dispelling and you should have a kill soon. Your DPS is a bit low but not so low you can not get a kill.
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  5. #5
    Brewmaster Raxxed's Avatar
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    As said above your tanks dps looks incredibly low.
    Looking at the monk breakdown it just seems like he's not using his skills off cd enough
    Warrior seems to be the same thing, that and his melee is his second highest damage which baffles me.

    Although this dps won't cost you a kill via the enrage, it will still improve the fight drastically. Any dps increase on horridon makes a gigantic world of difference.
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  6. #6
    Just to further on that.

    I usually do 130-190M damage on Horridon over an entire fight. But that is of course dependant on how good dps you have. The worse DPS the rest of the raid have the higher you will have.

    Your tanks had done 25M(war) and 11M(monk) by the third gate. By the third gate, I have usually alone done 60M damage with the other tank having done about 10M damage. I think your tanks should aim to atleast get up to 50M together. Though your dps is a bit lower than ours so probably 60M would not be impossible. I also cleave the adds a lot. Before War-God spawns I have usually done 75-100M on Horridon before the War-God spawns. Again, depending on how good the groups DPS is. So your tanks dps is quite far behind.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #7
    your moonkin at least seems to be having an awfully low uptime on the dots around 70% for both of them
    there's about 8 million damage just there, if he manages to up them to 85-90%
    also he could swap to heart of the wild if he doesnt like managing cooldowns. considering moonkins already got quite a lot of them.
    He should be at least 60k with some small changes though he should be way higher than that, but I hate moonkins and cant make any sense of their cd's
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  8. #8
    Thanks for all the tips guys. Really appreciate all of this. I think we realize as a group that DPS is probably our biggest issue right now and any advice helps a lot.

  9. #9
    As said though. DPS is an issue. It is low, and having more would make stuff significantly easier still, it is not like you cant kill it. Focus on not standing in shit, dispelling and interrupting aswell.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-24 at 12:04 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    As said though. DPS is a issue. It is low, and having more would make stuff significantly easier still, it is not like you cant kill it. Focus on not standing in shit, dispelling and interrupting aswell.
    Any advice for dispels on the third door? We only have one disease dispel and it gets really out of hand very fast.

  11. #11
    Brewmaster Raxxed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    As said though. DPS is a issue. It is low, and having more would make stuff significantly easier still, it is not like you cant kill it. Focus on not standing in shit, dispelling and interrupting aswell.
    Dont think this can be stressed enough.
    Staying alive on Horridon is the 'hardest' part.
    Focus on doing that first, then if you see you're actually struggling with DPS, attempt to fix that.
    In reality people should be fixing their DPS as they play, but for a guild such as your own which you said is friends and I'm assuming aren't planing on going even remotely hardcore, min maxing isn't required for normal modes.

    Basically, just focus on survivability over all else. Once you have that sorted you can fix your DPS issue.

    Good luck.
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  12. #12
    One thing that gets people on the third door are the orbs since they float around - you can slowly kite the adds to door #4. Also, remember that the small door 3 adds have no aggro table so people are a bit more responsible for kiting adds if they're ranged or for melee stunning them. The small adds, though, can be grouped if everyone stacks loosely and aoes/cleaves.

  13. #13
    Any tips for dispels on the disease on the third door? Only our paladin can remove them and it was giving us a hard time.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emnious View Post
    Any tips for dispels on the disease on the third door? Only our paladin can remove them and it was giving us a hard time.
    Monk tanks can dispel.
    Utilise stuns and snares.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-24 at 12:25 AM ----------

    I'm about to throw my phone out the windows
    All monks can dispel, not just monk tanks.
    Won't let me edit.
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Blizzard offered cardboard cut outs with poster pictures of bosses stapled on them upside down and sideways and many players now feel that is raiding.

  15. #15
    Have the druid use Symbiosis on the pally and they'll gain the pally's Cleanse. (at least this is true for a resto druid, not sure about other specs)

    This and council are also places to start looking at each player's talents. For example, as a hunter I switch my Tier 1 talent to Crouching Tiger for Jinrokh since the shortened Deterrence CD means I have that up for each Lightning Storm. But on this fight and the next I move that to Posthaste since that alters my Disengage so that it breaks roots and snares. On Horridon that lets me get out of Sand Trap and Frozen Orb more easily, on Council it gets me out of Quicksand when rooted.

    Too many times people fall into the cookie cutter mindset of previous expansions, but you can now clear individual talents as long as you carry Tomes on you. Everyone shoujd look at their talents in light of the fights that you're doing and carry a couple of stacks of Tomes, switching talents when it helps.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-05-24 at 01:07 AM.

  16. #16
    I'd suggest trying to set certain dps benchmarks for people to hit on each door. Things like trying to kill the first large add that drops from the stands before the 2nd and 3rd large adds drop. And on the 1st and 2nd door, killing the 2nd large add before the dinomancer drops down. On the 2nd door, also try to kill the 1st small add that comes out the door before the 1st large add drops. With proper rotation of stuns on it, you can kill it without even letting it charge anyone, and your healers will have one less bleed to worry about healing through.

    On the 3rd and 4th doors, it can help to change up the kill priority a bit though. On those doors, after you kill the first large add that drops, clean up the small adds until the dinomancer drops, kill the dinomancer (or rather, just make it drop the orb), then the 2nd and 3rd large adds. That way you dont get overwhelmed with diseases or the damage from the flame casters.

    I agree with the sentiment in this thread that it is important for people to stay alive. However, if you are able to meet certain dps benchmarks, it is far easier to stay alive than without making those benchmarks. More dps on the adds means the adds dont have a chance to use their abilities as often. It is far easier when there are fewer voidzones on the ground to avoid, and fewer things to dispell. The more dps you bring to the fight, the easier it is to stay alive.
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  17. #17
    I tried to look up your shaman, or your guild, on wow armory and came up empty. I was really curious why your shaman was so low. Chain Lightning is a valid filler here in his single target rotation instead of lightning bolt. He should ascend on door 1 right away (cause he can) and then again on door 3 when the dual frost elites jump down, just as he hits hero. I blow fire ele on door 3 with hero. Earth ele used to be blown on 2 because we would miss poison interrupts sometimes and he'd be a target. He can use Conductivity to help heal, it works pretty well here except for people moving all the time so he would have to learn movement timing from the tanks.

    Here's the keys to the fight

    1) Have a main assist. This is a guy who will call targets, and for whom all party members have an assist macro (/assist playername). When he calls "My target" everyone hits their button and dumps on the new guy. Suddenly healthbars melt.
    2) Have premarked and prefocused door 2 poison guys before you pull. They're up top. You will assign TWO people per guy to interrupt those. They're dedicated job is to have that guy focused, and have an interrupt macro that interrupts the focus first, and if no focus it interrupts the target.
    3) The tanks should have focus macros, especially for door 3. When they leave the first frost orb guy to pick up the 2nd/3rd they should keep one frost orb guy focused and another targetted. Every time the frost orb casts they back the heck up and get the melee stack out of there. This conserves space.
    4) Hero on door 3 when the 2 additional big guys drop. It should still be up for dinomancer.
    5) Decursive. It's the most important thing.
    6) On door 4 kill bears fast, they can seemingly one shot dps. Stay out of lightning totems.
    7) When you get the 4th door down you will probably want to set the stack of players not tanking horridon on his arena interior shoulder. When War God drops just pull him to that spot and fight him from there, stacked. This allows for any charges to be easily ran to horridons face (where the horridon tank is already standing) and it allows for AOE heals.
    8) Don't stand in stuff. Check recount and name the people standing in stuff every wipe.

    Here is our log from a similar length fight: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/vomvq...?s=8320&e=8662

    When we began trying to kill horridon, we were bad at everything. By the time we got done with the weeks of logs and forum reading (and actual in game reps for improvement) we were a well oiled machine. There was no more chaos, only errors everyone could easily identify and fix. It's the hardest fight we've had yet.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    your moonkin at least seems to be having an awfully low uptime on the dots around 70% for both of them
    there's about 8 million damage just there, if he manages to up them to 85-90%
    also he could swap to heart of the wild if he doesnt like managing cooldowns. considering moonkins already got quite a lot of them.
    He should be at least 60k with some small changes though he should be way higher than that, but I hate moonkins and cant make any sense of their cd's
    The moonkin died on that fight.

    If you check out the last attempt though, his uptime on Nature's Grace is still very low. Tell him that keeping 2 dots on horridon & using eclipsed dot on everything else is fine. He should also check his gear as his reforges are more wrong than you could imagine. (Downloading Reforgelite will do miracles).

    It also seems like your tanks are very slow as the moonkin died on the 2 attempts I was looking at. Either you're not stacking properly (running as a group kind of) or the tanks are too slow. (You can blame the moonkin and say that he dotted the mobs as they jumped down, but even that shouldn't be an excuse). The adds spawn at the same location every time (If im not wrong).

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatchetman240 View Post
    5) Decursive. It's the most important thing.
    This.

    @OP: Looking at the deaths overview from the log you posted, I'd say you have more problems with these Risen Drakkari somethings (small, random-aggroing, disease-spreaders) than with those Frozen Warlords (big orb-dropping guys). So, you have at least 3 people to dispel the diseases (1 Paladin and 2 Monks - yes, Brewmasters can and should dispel too!); the DPS should focus on those "minor" adds, as they don't have that much health and burst them down. The Warlords should just be dragged away from the spots they leave their orbs and the melee should be fine.

    The bears at gate 4 are cleaving like hell, so just make sure you're ALWAYS behind them. Only Tanks should be in fornt of them. Nontheless you want them dead asap, otherwise the tank's gonna get real trouble.

    When Jalak (this lol-Troll guy) spawns, you have two options: Kill the guy or ignore him and kill the dino. I'd suggest the former as the dps is not that good; if your healers get bored, you can do the latter.

    The fight is really about:
    - not standing in stuff
    - dispelling stuff you can't avoid
    - focusing the right targets (as alreadys said: main assist really helps here)

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Just to further on that.

    I usually do 130-190M damage on Horridon over an entire fight. But that is of course dependant on how good dps you have. The worse DPS the rest of the raid have the higher you will have.

    Your tanks had done 25M(war) and 11M(monk) by the third gate. By the third gate, I have usually alone done 60M damage with the other tank having done about 10M damage. I think your tanks should aim to atleast get up to 50M together. Though your dps is a bit lower than ours so probably 60M would not be impossible. I also cleave the adds a lot. Before War-God spawns I have usually done 75-100M on Horridon before the War-God spawns. Again, depending on how good the groups DPS is. So your tanks dps is quite far behind.
    While I agree that the dmg the tanks are pushing is low I don't think the warrior is too far behind the normal benchmark for warriors. I can pull about 32(M) and I sit on boss while my paladin offtank takes doors.

    Atm as mentioned alot warrior tank's dps is quite low in comparison to other tanks but your monk's damage should be higher.

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