Casting PWS during spirit shell.

[Deleted]

False. Basing it on http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Siory/advanced and adjusting the stats to account for heavy Crit (37.03% crit/13.68% heal mastery/27.35% shield mastery) and heavy Mastery (29.62% crit/19.6% heal mastery/39.2% shield mastery), you get these values for:

Mastery results in ~5.2% more healing on average.

The difference between stacking both stats is rather negligible, especially when it comes to SS and PW:S. The main difference is whether you want higher raw healing (Mastery) or DAs (Crit). Ultimately, the overall difference in total output is pretty trivial, and Crit may actually come out ahead once overhealing is factored in. You could do this for various values of Crit/Mastery stacked builds, and you'd still reach the same conclusion.

I will check your values later, because I am not sure what you are doing is correct but for now lets accept it. I really don't understand what your point is. I tell you that the difference is 3-5% and that both crit and mastery you tell me that its false and in fact mastery is approximately 5% more healing? Or are you trying to tell me that mastery does not increase absorbs more than heals and that the scaling on PWS is not as high as I am saying. If that is the case then we can discuss this further.

5% is not trivial. It is massive. Your entire secondary stat budget does not contribute more than 15-20% healing, so 5% is small overall but a humongous difference in the effectiveness of your stat budget.

---------- Post added 2013-06-03 at 01:54 AM ----------

I'm finding that roughly half of the logs I look into (just randomly clicked on some in top 20) have more than a 1.66 aegis/pws total ratio:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...?s=4749&e=5009 (low damage period close to 57% DA, 7% PW:S)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...?s=3026&e=3400 (close to 38% DA, 5% PW:S)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s...?s=5751&e=6138 (close to 49% DA, 17% PW:S)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8410&e=8974 (close to 28% DA, 10% PW:S)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2...s/4/?s=0&e=304 (22% DA, 20% PW:S) high ratio of PW:S!
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...?s=6827&e=7179 (14% DA, 0% PW:S)

You need to have another look at these logs

Two of your logs are the same player odd coincidence

Log1) 4 PWS casts in 4min20sec

Log2) PWS is the top heal in all but 1 low damage phases and the only reason that DA is high on that first phase is because of inner focus-PoH usage and a low number of PWS casts. Overall PWS is the top heal on low damage phases.

Log3) and Log4) are ppl with high crit rate who cast PWS only for rapture and maintaining over 100k HPS pretty much everywhere (so no low HPS phase). Even so check the top logs from these encounters.

Log 6) Using heroic logs is like using horridon logs. Kinda pointless as the mechanics of the fight either massively buff atonement or discourage you from using PWS. Indeed this person is using on average one PWS every 30s.

So long 1, 2, 3 and 6 are ppl consciously using low PWS amounts. Logs 2 and 5 actually show that I am right and using 1 PWS every 15s in a phase that is just atonement (i.e. 50-70k) HPS results in very high PWS:Aegis ratios.

Aegis overhealing is high across the board, while PWS overhealing is much lower showing that aegis does not have the innately lower overheal that we think it does.

Also more importantly if you look carefully you will see that aegis partial overheals are a low proportion of the total, so crit loses more from DA overheal than mastery, because mastery only suffers a loss from partial overheal, while crit suffers a loss both on full overheals and on partial overheals that exceed teh mastery amount.

You are making a big assumption by suggesting that the heal part of mastery is lost most of the time. Overheal rates are not that high overall and most of your HPS comes from high HPS low overheal phases.

Even at 40% overheal you are not looking at every spell overhealing at 40%, there is a distribution and a large proportion of heals DONT overheal at all.

Basically the idea that crit loses much less than mastery does is false. The losses suffered by mastery and crit overall are similar if they are balanced and if you stack either one high they begin to lose more and more both from diminishing return and due to increased loses from overheal. So for high crit low mastery, crit suffers much more from overheal than mastery does.

I'm fairly certain that it behaves exactly like I think, I'm simply looking at different numbers/benefits than you. Yes, the optimal point is probably somewhere in between the pw:s optimal and the heal optimal (although closer to the heal optimal). Crit doesn't really lose a significant value going higher, it's just that mastery gains, which yes makes stacking crit blindly a bad idea.

Your initial argument that I disagreed with was that the optimal point is higher crit than the balance point. If the optimal point is between the PWS optimal and the heal optimal that that is more mastery that the heal balance point. If you really do believe this statement then we agree.

It is important to note though that I was wrong in assuming there exists a balance point for mastery and crit on PWS. Actually it turns out that mastery is always better, now that I checked the formula.

Personally I am advocating that you should err towards mastery and you advocate you should err towards crit. Which one is best depends mostly on your heal breakdown, but the differences can be as big as 5%. It is important to note that your heal breakdown is largely dependent on your secondary stats, so it is not quite that straightforward to figure it out by comparing different logs from different people and different guilds.

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Are you refering to the actual length the shields applied by SS lasts? If so, the sixth SS adds less than 3 seconds until the SS applications starts dropping (admittedly not from the same grp as it would with 6). You essentially gain one PoH cast in time to wait for the damage to start going out before your shells starts to drop (and in 5's case the shell dropping at that point would be a small one, which gets consumed quicker), it's really not that significant.

I am talking about the length that your shields stay active after SS expires. The 2.3s added by the extra cast is massive. It makes a big difference between getting spirit shell fully absorbed on all three groups or suffering losses from expiration. Most of the overheal on spirit shell comes from partial absorb due to too little duration on one of the groups. On 10man because you are SSing both groups adding too many PWS greatly increases the chances of having a partially absorbed stack expire.

Yep, I agree that having enough haste to fit in one PW:S during your SS applications is somewhat handy (your focus seemed to be on 2 PW:S being so important, which I found strange). Considering that you generally want to/can throw a PW:S right before applying the SS (meaning that rapture usually is on cd during most of it) I don't really think having enough haste to fit another one in is 'that' important, but yes it has some value (especially since it's well, hard to avoid).

I think that having enough haste to add 1 PWS (i.e. enough haste to overcome latency) is essential not somewhat handy. I think that having 2 PW:S is the only break point one should aim for if they are taking haste. They should not aim for the 7th cast, also everyone using SS with PI should check their haste to see if they can fit an extra PWS during SpS.

---------- Post added 2013-06-03 at 02:58 AM ----------

False. Basing it on http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Siory/advanced and adjusting the stats to account for heavy Crit (37.03% crit/13.68% heal mastery/27.35% shield mastery) and heavy Mastery (29.62% crit/19.6% heal mastery/39.2% shield mastery), you get these values for:

Ok let me redo your calculations, because I am pretty sure they are not right.

29% crit and 22% mastery unbuffed should translate roughly to 36% crit raid buffed and 30% mastery raid buffed.

The aegis part of all heals is crit*(1+mastery)*(1+0.5*mastery) = 0.36*1.3*1.15 = 0.5382

For ALL heals including spirit shell the coefficient is (1+0.5*mastery)*(1+crit*(1+mastery)) = 1.15*(1+0.36*1.3) = 1.6882

PWS modifier is (1+crit)*(1+mastery) = 1.36*1.3 = 1.768

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Now let us take 10% crit and add 16% more mastery. Final values 26% crit and 46% mastery

The aegis part of all heals now becomes 0.26*1.46*1.23 = 0.466908

The heal coefficient becomes 1.23*(1+0.26*1.46) = 1.696908

PWS becomes 1.46*1.26 = 1.8396

Basically aegis is reduced by 13.35%, healing is increased by 7% and overall healing is increased by 0.5%. The reason is that where we were above the balance point on crit, we now overshot the balance point on the mastery side. Even so mastery still comes up on top slightly on max throughput.

PWS however is increased by 4% due to the heavy mastery.

If we now assume that mastery bonus overheals on half of heals and that your breakdown is 25% aegis, 15% PWS, 20% spirit shell and 40% heals then what we get is

0.25*(1-0.1335)+0.2*1.07+0.2+0.2*1.005+0.15*1.04 = 0.987625, so a loss of 1.24%.

At the balance point C = (0.4+M*(3+M))/(4.8+3.2*M). For PWS mastery actually turns out to be always better because of the 60% higher scaling, so there is no balance point.

So let us now subtract 7% crit and add 11.2% mastery. So final buffed values are 29% crit and 41.2% mastery, which is the breakpoint for heals.

Aegis = 0.29*1.412*1.206 = 0.49383288 an 8.3% decrease
Heals = 1.206/1.15 = 1.048695652174 a 4.9% increase
Heals + aegis = 1.206*(1+0.29*1.412) = 1.69983288 an increase of 0.69%
PWS = 1.29*1.412 = 1.82148 an increase of 3%

0.25*(1-0.083)+0.2*1.049+0.2+0.2*1.0069+0.15*1.03 = 0.99493

So for this kind distribution it seems that I am wrong and going for the balance point makes pretty much zero difference, thus since crit adds some DPS it is best to go crit.

However the numbers show that my other statements were correct. The absolute change in PWS is about twice as big as the absolute change in aegis. Mastery and Crit both increase the proportion of a heal coming from DS.

The important thing to realise is that the distribution actually depends on your secondary stats, so the answer is not really that straightforward. Modelling the damage and comparing high crit with balanced mastery logs is what is required to see the actual differences.

[Deleted]

You need to have another look at these logs

I haven't looked through them much since I really don't think random logs are a good argument nor that relevant in this context, just figured I'd show that your argument that essentially all high logs having a high pw:s to da ratio is incorrect.

Two of your logs are the same player odd coincidence

Probably related to me trying to find english sounding names.

Log1) 4 PWS casts in 4min20sec

So long 1, 2, 3 and 6 are ppl consciously using low PWS amounts. Logs 2 and 5 actually show that I am right and using 1 PWS every 15s in a phase that is just atonement (i.e. 50-70k) HPS results in very high PWS:Aegis ratios.

As stated I don't cast PW:S in a low damage scenario assuming that my mana is high, I'd rather just keep dpsing if that's the case, so this isn't necessarily incorrect.

Log2) PWS is the top heal in all but 1 low damage phases and the only reason that DA is high on that first phase is because of inner focus-PoH usage and a low number of PWS casts. Overall PWS is the top heal on low damage phases.

Fair enough, as stated I haven't looked through the logs a significant enough.

Log3) and Log4) are ppl with high crit rate who cast PWS only for rapture and maintaining over 100k HPS pretty much everywhere (so no low HPS phase). Even so check the top logs from these encounters.

Low/medium hps phases do exist, and they consist of way more da than PW:S.

Log 6) Using heroic logs is like using horridon logs. Kinda pointless as the mechanics of the fight either massively buff atonement or discourage you from using PWS. Indeed this person is using on average one PWS every 30s.

I don't think tortos disfavors PW:S usage (I probably use it more here than on an average fight) but regardless the fact that several fights in this tier favors atonement/disfavors PW:S is something that affects the value of our stats.

Aegis overhealing is high across the board, while PWS overhealing is much lower showing that aegis does not have the innately lower overheal that we think it does.

You are making a big assumption by suggesting that the heal part of mastery is lost most of the time. Overheal rates are not that high overall and most of your HPS comes from high HPS low overheal phases.

Even at 40% overheal you are not looking at every spell overhealing at 40%, there is a distribution and a large proportion of heals DONT overheal at all.

Regardless of how you spin it most of our heals have a higher overheal ratio than DA. In a low damage situation both da and mastery can end up overhealing, but mastery is even more prone to. In a high damage situation da never overheals, and mastery can overheal occasionally.

Also more importantly if you look carefully you will see that aegis partial overheals are a low proportion of the total, so crit loses more from DA overheal than mastery, because mastery only suffers a loss from partial overheal, while crit suffers a loss both on full overheals and on partial overheals that exceed teh mastery amount.

Clarify.

Basically the idea that crit loses much less than mastery does is false. The losses suffered by mastery and crit overall are similar if they are balanced and if you stack either one high they begin to lose more and more both from diminishing return and due to increased loses from overheal. So for high crit low mastery, crit suffers much more from overheal than mastery does.

Depends on how you define much, they don't lose the exact same amount if your stats are balanced. Which stat do you think'll lose more if they are?

Your initial argument that I disagreed with was that the optimal point is higher crit than the balance point. If the optimal point is between the PWS optimal and the heal optimal that that is more mastery that the heal balance point. If you really do believe this statement then we agree.

It is important to note though that I was wrong in assuming there exists a balance point for mastery and crit on PWS. Actually it turns out that mastery is always better, now that I checked the formula.

Personally I am advocating that you should err towards mastery and you advocate you should err towards crit. Which one is best depends mostly on your heal breakdown, but the differences can be as big as 5%. It is important to note that your heal breakdown is largely dependent on your secondary stats, so it is not quite that straightforward to figure it out by comparing different logs from different people and different guilds.

To clarify what my point is. We have one point that is ideal for PW:S, which is 100% mastery 0% crit, if you are correct. We have one point that is ideal for our heals, according to Adinne (cba to redo it), C=0.11+0.9M. My understanding was that you wanted to aim for the balance that would increase all of our healing by as much as humanly possible with said statpoints, which obviously is somewhere between the ideal point for PW:S and other heals, depending on how much of your healing comes from each/how much the stats affect them. Are you following me or do I need to illustrate it?

For healing purposes (the added dps has some effect as well, still not entirely sure how I should value it) I'm also arguing for a balance somewhere in between the ideal point for PW:S and our other heals (so more mastery than C=0.11+0.9M) however unlike above I don't think that the combination that results in the maximum raw healing increase is ideal, I think it should shift slightly more to crit (or possibly significantly in 10 man, due to the dps).

The difference between these two points won't be anywhere close to 5%

I am talking about the length that your shields stay active after SS expires. The 2.3s added by the extra cast is massive. It makes a big difference between getting spirit shell fully absorbed on all three groups or suffering losses from expiration. Most of the overheal on spirit shell comes from partial absorb due to too little duration on one of the groups. On 10man because you are SSing both groups adding too many PWS greatly increases the chances of having a partially absorbed stack expire.

One additional cast means that you have an additional ~2,3s (or a bit more depending on where you fit in the PW:S) before your SS shields start expiring. The extra cast doesn't affect the expiration time for the two grps that it isn't targetted on, and assuming that you just cast 5 PoH's the one expiring first will be the smaller one (meaning that it won't need as much time to be consumed). It's nice and worth slightly more than the 7:th (mainly because your PoH casts come closer together with the haste required) but not by that much assuming that you don't place your instants in a poor way.

I think that having enough haste to add 1 PWS (i.e. enough haste to overcome latency) is essential not somewhat handy.

Why is it essential?

I think that having 2 PW:S is the only break point one should aim for if they are taking haste. They should not aim for the 7th cast, also everyone using SS with PI should check their haste to see if they can fit an extra PWS during SpS.

I quite frankly think that aiming for a SS breakpoint is pointless, the only haste breakpoints I'm considering are the ones for sf (and only if I'm damn close already). If you decide to aim for one I do think that the 7:th makes more sense than an extra PW:S, but in reality I feel that the only thing useful regarding this is to know what you can do with the haste rating you currently have, not that you should adjust your gearing/haste rating based on the points.

[Deleted]

100k+ HPS is now low HPS phases and they consist of a lot more heals than atonement. It is player choice whether they use PWS, but many players do and many of the top logs do too.

The optimal point for heals is C = (0.4+M*(3+M))/(4.8+3.2*M), where C and M are fully buffed mastery and crit expressed as fractions of 1. For heals however deviating from that point results in only small differences in maximal HPS.

One additional cast means that you have an additional ~2,3s (or a bit more depending on where you fit in the PW:S) before your SS shields start expiring. The extra cast doesn't affect the expiration time for the two grps that it isn't targetted on, and assuming that you just cast 5 PoH's the one expiring first will be the smaller one (meaning that it won't need as much time to be consumed). It's nice and worth slightly more than the 7:th (mainly because your PoH casts come closer together with the haste required) but not by that much assuming that you don't place your instants in a poor way.

No matter how you do it you will always run into trouble. 4 PWS + 5 PoH is essentially PWS/PoH spam, so the difference in duration between spirit shells has to be 3.5s or so. On three groups there will be a 7s difference between the lower duration group and the highest duration group, and you are also getting PWSs expiring too. Even just 2.3s extra seconds means that fit 2 more instants before the damage starts, so it pays for itself. Having the 6th cast increases flexibility on the time of spirit shell activation and

On 10 man your the 7th cast is in danger of overcapping and it is even harder to get 4 PWS+2x spirit shell casts absorbed in such a short time.

The 6+1 breakpoint is essential because it offers a very significant boost for a very low item budget cost. There is no logical reason why you should ignore something with very high return and little cost.

What possible reason could there be for a 10%+ increase in spirit shell, which easily represents 20% of your healing to be pointless. If all you do is smite and you don't really care about healing as long as your DPS is high enough then I can agree that it is pointless. If healing is the main concern that it is good return for your itembudget, though not as much return as the +1 breakpoint.

In general I dont like crit for healing, because it greatly increase the variation in output for a particular heal sequence. For me if mastery produces roughly the same results as crits I will take mastery rather than crit. DPS optimization for me when I am doing like 2-3% of total raid DPS is meaningless, but ensuring that no one dies due to bad RNG is much more important. +/-10k DPS when you are looking at 800-1m total dps or 2-3m in 25man, seems like a total waste of time to me. With the nerf to atonement and penance damage even more so.

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Mastery affects the size of the absorb not the frequency of aegis creation. Crit affects the frequency of creation not the size. If aegis expires completely unused then it is the equivalent of crit rating giving you less crit. Mastery loses against other stats due to scaling with crit, but relative to crit is suffers no loss. Similarly if there is a partial absorb that is less than the amount added by mastery it is equivalent to mastery rating giving less absorb. Thus although crit loses relative to other stats it loses nothing relative to mastery.

Full overheals on aegis increase the value of mastery relative to crit. Partial overheals reduce the value of mastery relative to crit.

[Deleted]

In general I dont like crit for healing, because it greatly increase the variation in output for a particular heal sequence. For me if mastery produces roughly the same results as crits I will take mastery rather than crit.

Would it be possible to see some of your logs purely out of interest in order to "compare" some numbers on mastery vs crit in practice?
I'm rather interested especially if you have said breakpoint, would be interesting to see the breakdown of your healing spells vs for example my own, seeing as I dont run with the haste breakpoint you speak of and I tend to lean on crit (ie no mastery gems, never reforging to mastery).

I could look up a random armory which would correspond with these stats, but I'd find it more interesting seeing yours as you seem so keen on the matter