UEFA are a joke

[Valeron]

That was pre bosman though Dray. It is completely different after that ruling.

[draykorinee]

That was pre bosman though Dray. It is completely different after that ruling.

Agreed, so the problem is not that the letting in just the champions creates a quadopoly, its the Bosman ruling and financial power of the elite clubs that causes the problem, exactly what I thought.

[Deleted]

Now I don't know how old you are.

im 46 in a cpl of weeks, so yeah, ive seen a lot of changes to european competitions over the years. european cup, uefa cup, cup winners cup, intertoto cup.
it just seems to me that you can still have a mediocre season in your domestic leagues & still get into the champions league. i'll take arsenal as an example. they finished 16 points behind the champions of england & yet somehow get into a competition called the 'champions' league. chelsea werent much better. they get dumped out the champions league at the group stage & thrown into the EL, which they then go on to win. theyre obviously not good enough for the CL, but winning the EL somehow gets them back into CL, irrespective that they came 3rd in the EPL & have qualified automatically next season.
i really think the champions league should be the champions only & if that means the winners from so called 'lesser' nations go into the CL at the expense of the so called bigger teams who finish runner up or lower, then so be it.

[Taurenburger]

i really think the champions league should be the champions only & if that means the winners from so called 'lesser' nations go into the CL at the expense of the so called bigger teams who finish runner up or lower, then so be it.

If this would happen, the CL would become so dull. Look at the top 4 in the CL this year: two German and two Spanish teams. They are, thus, "better" than any other European team. If you'd only have one of those, the CL would become less exciting as you'd have only one of each country and not anymore the best of the best. With a champions-only setup, we could have ex. AFC Ajax in the semi-finals, but that doesn't mean they're even close to the top 4 clubs in Europe.

I do think a setup with a cup for champions, a cup for cupwinners, and a cup for places 2-4 would be interesting, but not as exciting (and not sportively the best setup) as the setup now.

[siafu]

champions league cant be champions only. cause of money, lets say a team A wins the league 3 times in a row and goes till the quarter finals of champions for 3 straight seasons the discrepancy in money towards the team that finished 2nd would be so big that would be near impossible to recover. money = better players = higher chance of winning. these days its all about who has the most money. i wish there was a salary ceiling for players and managers. the game would be better off. tired of watching the money powerhouses buying all the players and getting the titles cause of it.

i love the game but honestly there's so many things wrong with it it's silly. i watched the CL Finals without a favorite i really didn't care who won. but after 70 min it looked like the referee had already decided who would win. how the fuck isnt ribery and dante sent off?.

[Deleted]

If this would happen, the CL would become so dull. Look at the top 4 in the CL this year: two German and two Spanish teams. They are, thus, "better" than any other European team. If you'd only have one of those, the CL would become less exciting as you'd have only one of each country and not anymore the best of the best.

surely the best of the best, doesnt include runners up, 3rd place, etc etc?

[Deleted]

surely the best of the best, doesnt include runners up, 3rd place, etc etc?

It does. That's why FIFA and UEFA got rankings, and that is why some countries get more spots for CL football than others. This is not meant as an offence, but when you throw in the chamions of "smaller" football nations, all you get is the best of the worst, not the best of the best. They're still given the chance to qualify and play in the CL, and yet many of them fail to take it. As it is now, the CL is the tournament for the best of the best(aka the richest) in Europe.

[Deleted]

Honestly, only Champions of their leagues? Well, it was pretty boring back then: the best team of the last season might not be the best team this season. It can be actually pretty bad. Getting the runner ups made it a much more interesting competition, because if you place the 4 best teams of the most competitive leagues, you are ensuring that the most powerful team of each season is going to be playing the CL.

In the past it was pretty ridiculous. A CL without M U, without Liverpool, without Milan, nor Juve, nor R. Madrid, nor Valencia, nor PSG nor O. de Marseilla, but with the champions of Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Austria...

[Lollis]

Actually as a Manchester United supporter, you could feel offended. '99 and 2008 both came after seasons where United failed to win the Premier League. But it's the Champions League, not "Champions and Chokers League"

Would just like to point out that in 06/07, United did win the Premier League so they were in the 07/08 UCL as Champions.

Personally, I think having Europe League Champions qualifying for the Champions League is a good idea, it'll give more incentive for teams to actually take it seriously. Besides there are some pretty decent sides who get into the Europa League that find it extremely difficult to get into the Champions League now.

Spain has 2 spots available because of Madrid and Barca, England has 1 spot because of United, Chelsea, and now city. France are likely to have only 1 slot available soon because of PSG & Monaco with their billions. Portugal is Porto & Benfica plus whoever is lucky to get third. Italy is Juventus & Milan plus a 3rd. Germany is slowly turning into Bayern & Dortmund plus 2. It gets really bad for teams in leagues with fewer spot allocations when they are dominated by one team like the SPL is now.

The Champion's League is by far the strongest footballing competition in the world, followed by European Championship (the World Cup is a joke for the majority of the tournament), but teams that become champions of the Europa League are no pushover either.

[Northern Goblin]

It does. That's why FIFA and UEFA got rankings

Sorry but FIFA rankings are meaningless for as long as they take in international friendlies as part of the point scoring system. Also just because a country is good at national level doesn't mean they are at club level.

and that is why some countries get more spots for CL football than others. This is not meant as an offence, but when you throw in the chamions of "smaller" football nations, all you get is the best of the worst, not the best of the best. They're still given the chance to qualify and play in the CL, and yet many of them fail to take it. As it is now, the CL is the tournament for the best of the best(aka the richest) in Europe.

And right now there's barely any motivation to win it, just finish in a top # position and you're good. I mean we saw Arsenal celebrating fourth this year, FOURTH.

You don't aim to celebrate fourth, you should aim to come first. But qualifying for the CL has become more important than winning the league, which is killing the competition and drive in some teams. Take it back to being Champions vs Champions and sure you'll get minnows in the group stages, but the knockout stages will still be your Italian/English/Spanish/German/Dutch/French teams. Throw in the previous year's CL winner (or whoever came second in their country if they're already in) and the EL winner (or whoever came second in their country if they already qualified. If second was the CL winner give it to whoever lost the EL final. Same way they do with Europa and the FA Cup if the winner is already in by other means)

The odds on the bracketed scenario of a 2nd place team and a runner up team qualifying are slim to none, chances are you'll have 8 of Europe's finest. And well if they don't get into the group stage, those "smaller" teams have earned their place by beating the best Europe has to offer*.

Y'know, because if you win your home league, generally you're considered the best.

Make the leagues interesting again, reduce the amount of spam the CL has with unnecessary pre-qualifiers where teams who won in their country have to go against people who didn't even make the top 3. Money has too much grip on this game, it should essentially be about one thing, the football.


*Well assuming of course the English entrant isn't Man City and they fail to get past the group stage for a third time in a row, best of the best indeed.

---------- Post added 2013-05-27 at 01:04 PM ----------

Would just like to point out that in 06/07, United did win the Premier League so they were in 07/08 UCL as Champions.

I stand corrected, it was the season before Chelsea had won it.


Also you mean the Champions of Scotland as in the ones who beat Barca this year in the group stages? And a CL without Liverpool? It's been that way for about 7 years.

[Wildtree]

im 46 in a cpl of weeks, so yeah, ive seen a lot of changes to european competitions over the years. european cup, uefa cup, cup winners cup, intertoto cup.
it just seems to me that you can still have a mediocre season in your domestic leagues & still get into the champions league. i'll take arsenal as an example. they finished 16 points behind the champions of england & yet somehow get into a competition called the 'champions' league. chelsea werent much better. they get dumped out the champions league at the group stage & thrown into the EL, which they then go on to win. theyre obviously not good enough for the CL, but winning the EL somehow gets them back into CL, irrespective that they came 3rd in the EPL & have qualified automatically next season.
i really think the champions league should be the champions only & if that means the winners from so called 'lesser' nations go into the CL at the expense of the so called bigger teams who finish runner up or lower, then so be it.

I see your point, but can we generalize?
Look at the current season..... Bayern beat Dortmund in the league by 25 points... A 25 pt gap from the 1. to the 2. place would tempt almost everyone to argue that the 2nd place team was weak. And what did we learn from the CL instead? Dortmund and Bayern made it into the finals, and both often literally humiliated their opponents. If we had only the national champions starting in the tournament, the quality would rather decline. Plus the tournament would become quite boring.
Unfortunately there are a few leagues where the titles are like a ping pong ball, passed between a couple or three teams. I think Spain hasn't seen another Title winner other than Real or Barca in decades. At least it feels like it. England is just slightly better. What would have to happen is how the leagues revenue is structured.
Take the Bundesliga for example. All revenue from TV broadcasting are split amongst all 36 teams from the first 2 divisions. How much revenue a club gets relies on their final ranking at the leader board. Every place matters.
In fact I believe that your desire matches exactly the commercial polarization of the top clubs in most leagues. If it was for their will, they'd ban even smaller countries champions. Just to be able to secure the tournament revenue for themselves.
We have traditionally 4 leading leagues in Europe.. England, Italy, Spain and Germany. The World Soccer Magazine most recently just voted the Bundesliga as the top league in the World. A big part of that was the balanced handling of the league. England, Italy and Spain have a huge debt problem. By raw numbers, the debt amount of the Bundesliga's first and second division together are lower than the debt from ManU.
The UEFA finally reacted not so long ago and put regulations in place which have to be obeyed by the clubs. By 2018 no club is allowed anymore to end a season with more than a 5 mio loss.
Unfortunately our sport became a commercial object. We fans need to fight this with everything we can do about it, to keep it as natural as the game itself is.
Maybe one day, once the financial imbalance caused by the gigantic clubs who spend money as inflationary as if would go out of style tomorrow has ended, maybe then we can have a true tournament of the national champions again.

For my own taste, I loved the diversity better too.
The old tournaments had their flair, and to me they never felt boring. The only cup I never cared about at all was the intertoto cup. That one was really a useless thing for the golden Pineapple...

[Deleted]

And right now there's barely any motivation to win it, just finish in a top # position and you're good. I mean we saw Arsenal celebrating fourth this year, FOURTH.

The nerve! Imagine a team who doesn't have the budget to compete for the title celebrating the achievement of their highest goal! Unthinkable!

You don't aim to celebrate fourth, you should aim to come first. But qualifying for the CL has become more important than winning the league, which is killing the competition and drive in some teams.

Doesn't seem to be doing so bad, since the introduction of the new model in 1992!
http://www.publications.parliament.u...92/792we06.htm

The odds on the bracketed scenario of a 2nd place team and a runner up team qualifying are slim to none, chances are you'll have 8 of Europe's finest. And well if they don't get into the group stage, those "smaller" teams have earned their place by beating the best Europe has to offer*.

You clearly don't remember how the Europe Cup worked back then.
And ugh, the first round. Oh god, the first round.

Y'know, because if you win your home league, generally you're considered the best.

No. You were the best of your league (which could be quite bad). And you were the best on the previous year, not necessarily on the current year. Which is what matters.

Also you mean the Champions of Scotland as in the ones who beat Barca this year in the group stages? And a CL without Liverpool? It's been that way for about 7 years.

What can i say. I am an old geezer. Liverpool is still the team that comes to my mind when i think "beat team of England".

[Deleted]

Sorry but FIFA rankings are meaningless for as long as they take in international friendlies as part of the point scoring system. Also just because a country is good at national level doesn't mean they are at club level.

Yes, FIFA rankings aren't relevant to the club representation of a given nation. I had in mind this when I wrote that.

And right now there's barely any motivation to win it, just finish in a top # position and you're good. I mean we saw Arsenal celebrating fourth this year, FOURTH.
You don't aim to celebrate fourth, you should aim to come first.

I'm pretty sure that Arsenal couldn't challenge for the 1st spot this season, no matter what motivation they had in front of them. It's gonna have the opposite effect, actually. The teams like Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, which had no real shot at winning the PL will just get demotivated, and instead of racing for 4th place, they will just become "filler" teams, like Fulham, Swansea, etc...

But qualifying for the CL has become more important than winning the league, which is killing the competition and drive in some teams.

That is just not true.

Y'know, because if you win your home league, generally you're considered the best.

Yes, in your home league. Yet, compared to the "big"(rich) clubs, they are considered average.

Make the leagues interesting again...

As far as I remember, last year's PL had the most interesting ending in a long, looong time. In my opinion, that has nothing to do with the CL.

Money has too much grip on this game, it should essentially be about one thing, the football.

That is probably not going to happen ever again.

Also you mean the Champions of Scotland as in the ones who beat Barca this year in the group stages?

Good for them. Nobody is denying them a place in the CL, but it's up to them to take it. I got nothing against the "smaller" teams(not talking about Celtic here) having a chance to qualify. I'm against denying so many other great teams the chance to play in the CL because they didn't finish first in their league(but they probably would in 15-20 others).

And a CL without Liverpool? It's been that way for about 7 years.

That doesn't bother me at all, in the last few years Liverpool can't get to their old self, and I don't think that they are worthy of playing in the CL at the moment.

[Wildtree]

Sorry but FIFA rankings are meaningless for as long as they take in international friendlies as part of the point scoring system. Also just because a country is good at national level doesn't mean they are at club level.




And right now there's barely any motivation to win it, just finish in a top # position and you're good. I mean we saw Arsenal celebrating fourth this year, FOURTH.

You don't aim to celebrate fourth, you should aim to come first. But qualifying for the CL has become more important than winning the league, which is killing the competition and drive in some teams. Take it back to being Champions vs Champions and sure you'll get minnows in the group stages, but the knockout stages will still be your Italian/English/Spanish/German/Dutch/French teams. Throw in the previous year's CL winner (or whoever came second in their country if they're already in) and the EL winner (or whoever came second in their country if they already qualified. If second was the CL winner give it to whoever lost the EL final. Same way they do with Europa and the FA Cup if the winner is already in by other means)

Sure enough, I can only speak for the Bundesliga. But the international tournaments contribute a LOT to the tension of our league. From the top to the bottom we have tension throughout the entire season, amongst 18 clubs usually up to the very last day of the season. Very very late towards the end there are around 3 or 4 teams who have no place to go anymore.

Of 18 places on the board, we have the top 6 spots secured for an international competition, and the bottom 3 spots are effected by the relegation, with 18 and 17 going down right away, and 16th has to go in a 2 games play off against the 2nd division 3rd place finisher.

It takes a long time - as said above - until it's clear who saves their ass in 15th place, and who jumps into 16h place. This season rank 17 and 16 were decided on the very last, the 34th season day. Same goes for the spots at the top. up until the 31th day there were a total of 5 clubs competing for the 5th and 6th rank, which entitle for the EL.
Germany has one more spot this year in the european tournaments, since Bayern who is already national champion, and CL winner, is also in the national cup final this coming weekend. That means Stuttgart their opponent has an international spot secured, they start at least in the EL qualifiers in August. Should they win the cup, they are in the Play offs.

All in all, we fans have more reason to go into the stadiums. 45.000 spectators average per game. World #1 spectator attendance currently. No other league has more.

[Northern Goblin]

Did you honestly say Chelsea and Arsenal have no chance of winning the Premier League?

Because the only thing either club lacks right now is ambition. This season was one of the most dull seasons ever because there were so many players that knew they could play sub-par, but it's alright they still get European football next year and their nice paycheck.


Last season was a rare exception, and it was only exciting because both teams kept choking and blowing their lead and allowing the other to catch up. If one or the other side actually played and pushed at their best knowing the carrot at the end of the stick was one of them goes to Madrid, Munich and Juventus, as opposed to trips to Spartak Moscow, Fenerbache and Sturm Graz.

The English Premier League has been poor, the gulf between United and everyone else because United tried this year shows the gap.

[Wildtree]

Did you honestly say Chelsea and Arsenal have no chance of winning the Premier League?

Because the only thing either club lacks right now is ambition. This season was one of the most dull seasons ever because there were so many players that knew they could play sub-par, but it's alright they still get European football next year and their nice paycheck.


Last season was a rare exception, and it was only exciting because both teams kept choking and blowing their lead and allowing the other to catch up. If one or the other side actually played and pushed at their best knowing the carrot at the end of the stick was one of them goes to Madrid, Munich and Juventus, as opposed to trips to Spartak Moscow, Fenerbache and Sturm Graz.

The English Premier League has been poor, the gulf between United and everyone else because United tried this year shows the gap.

What you say here is - if it's true - a poor testimony in regards of how English football works nowadays.
What I understand from it is, that your clubs apparently forgot for whom, and for what they play.

For what does a club play every week? For honor, for tradition, for the history for which the club name stands.
For whom does a club play every week? For all the great players the club once had. For all the fans who dedicate their hearts and often lives to their club..

Money is and always should be a secondary goal.

And if this is not the case, and if not every club gives it's very best all season long, then England lost it's sport. Then the fans are betrayed, and the clubs don't deserve a single cent anymore from them.

[Bolson13]

Champions league ruined it for all the leagues that are a little smaller. They cannot compete anymore.

Before you had clubs from all over Europe win the EC1. Now the bigger leagues are favoured and even the smaller teams there buy players from the big teams in other countries because they simple have more chance to play in the champions league. The bigger leagues get more TV money because they have more teams in the CL and get more exposure in Asia etc. So it is a viscious cycle that ruined football for everybody except the 4 (soon 3, say bye bye to Italy) leagues.
And now smaller leagues can't even be feeder leagues to the big leagues anymore because the 10 large teams just buy all the talent.

Also, the fact that those teams are allowed to run into debt so much is rediculous as well. Real and Barcelona get illegal funding pretty much every time.

Platini is a corrupt ass that needs to be banned from stadiums. He was overhyped as a player and in is his mind he also overhyped himself as a manager.

[Deleted]

Champions league ruined it for all the leagues that are a little smaller. They cannot compete anymore.

Before you had clubs from all over Europe win the EC1. Now the bigger leagues are favoured and even the smaller teams there buy players from the big teams in other countries because they simple have more chance to play in the champions league. The bigger leagues get more TV money because they have more teams in the CL and get more exposure in Asia etc. So it is a viscious cycle that ruined football for everybody except the 4 (soon 3, say bye bye to Italy) leagues.
And now smaller leagues can't even be feeder leagues to the big leagues anymore because the 10 large teams just buy all the talent.

Also, the fact that those teams are allowed to run into debt so much is rediculous as well. Real and Barcelona get illegal funding pretty much every time.

Platini is a corrupt ass that needs to be banned from stadiums. He was overhyped as a player and in is his mind he also overhyped himself as a manager.

absolutely true

[draykorinee]

Whilst not a true necro, its only over a month, at least reinvigorate a dead thread with a meaningful post :S Agreed, it is absolutely true.

[Tekkommo]

Champions league was ruined long ago, when it stopped being the 'champions' league.

UEFA have always been a joke.