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  1. #1

    Prot haste build and askmrrobot.com

    I am somewhat confused about askmrrobot telling me to gem/stack stam instead of haste when im only at 9.96% haste.

    Here is my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Ricc/advanced currently gemming for stam as askmrrobot tells me to but doesn't feel right?

    Should i replace all those stam gems with pure haste?

    Thanks in advance.

    R

  2. #2
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    People will probably ask this, but what content are you thinking about specifically (e.g. LFR, Normal, Heroic, etc)? How's your current survivability on the content you're already doing?

    A quick glance I'd say that dropping some stam would be beneficial as you're at 680K health as it is, and I'd estimate you could probably get ~12-13% haste if you switched. Also, you appear to be massively over the expertise cap (14.66%!) so I'd honestly say reforge as much as possible from expertise to haste. This would bring you up another few % without a problem. You've reforged FOR expertise, so I'm assuming you're going for hard-cap. In which case, disregard this, but it's my opinion that you'd probably see a major benefit from scrapping those expertise reforges and switching them to haste.

    You're 0.01% under hit cap, but it might not be worth reforging and just to get that.
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  3. #3
    Expertise cap is 15%, so you're actually under the cap. The values on askmrrobot are based on Thecks theorycrafting/simming, which can be found here: http://www.sacredduty.net/

    Basically quite recently he mathed out the value of stamina in terms of tank survivability compared to other stats, and found it to be way more effective in preventing tank deaths than any other stat. So as long as you're worried about not dying, you aim for max stam. On the other hand, if you're tanking normal modes for example, you might want to gem for max stats, ie. take socket bonuses using stam + haste (blue), haste (yellow) and exp + haste (red) sockets. That's because in normal mode you shouldn't be dying to anything that more stamina would help with, and trading some stamina for increased damage from haste might be the best way to go.

  4. #4
    Replace that vial trinket with a ghost iron dragonling.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by korpi View Post
    Expertise cap is 15%, so you're actually under the cap. The values on askmrrobot are based on Thecks theorycrafting/simming, which can be found here: http://www.sacredduty.net/

    Basically quite recently he mathed out the value of stamina in terms of tank survivability compared to other stats, and found it to be way more effective in preventing tank deaths than any other stat. So as long as you're worried about not dying, you aim for max stam. On the other hand, if you're tanking normal modes for example, you might want to gem for max stats, ie. take socket bonuses using stam + haste (blue), haste (yellow) and exp + haste (red) sockets. That's because in normal mode you shouldn't be dying to anything that more stamina would help with, and trading some stamina for increased damage from haste might be the best way to go.
    Pretty much this. I'd also recommend getting the haste trinket from Horridon and the expertise shado-pan trinket. They're two fairly good trinkets for prot pallys and relatively easy to get. Most tank trinkets this tier are really bad for Paladins. For the stamina, it all depends what you are doing. Heroics/Scenarios/LFR/Normals I'd gem for haste/stam and for heroic raiding/progression I'd say keep with the stamina for EHP purposes. In my off-set I'm at close to 17% haste with 512 item level.

  6. #6
    To add to my last post here's how I gear based on Thecks math, and other theorycrafting (10 man heroic raiding):
    As an upgrade anything with higher ilvl is almost always better (more stamina being the most important, but also armor helps). I aim to pick up all the dps plate exept ones with crit, which helps to maximise haste.
    Reforge Hit to 7.5% and expertise to 15%. Gem for max socket bonuses -> stam + haste (blue), haste (yellow) and exp + haste (red). Enchant max haste, exept for the pieces that I can get same or almost the same stamina (hand and feet with Sha armor kit). Otherwise enchant mastery.
    Since on trinkets you get actually more stamina than haste from a trinket, it is that where I pick up my stamina from. There is only one choise for that, though, and that is Lei Shens stam trinket. (I don't personally like Darkmoon Card that much, but that would be the other stamina trinket option.)

  7. #7
    Thx all...my raid group goal is normal raids with some heroic modes added...nothing too crazy, so we are not in the cutting edge of raiding/progression.

    My survivability has always been fine, cant recall a time when healers struggled with my damage intake as well. I will tool around with hybrid gems as suggested above.

    Thanks once again.

    R

  8. #8
    If healers are not struggling with your damage in-take, there is no reason to have more stamina. Go for more haste and crit and expertise.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #9
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    Hold the phone ....

    One guy is telling him to to avoid exp hard cap, another one telling him to reforge crit ? What have you been smoking?

    OP: You should aim for Hit (7.5% = 2550 Rating) = Expertise (15% = 5100 Rating) > Stamina (until you feel comfortable) > Haste > Mastery.

    The less Stamina you have the higher is the skill cap (rotation, cd's, etc). I have 537 ilvl so I just gem haste in _all_ sockets. Most sockets bonusses are str/dodge/parry/mastery anyway. Then I use reforgelite or wowreforge.com. What you need to do with those is tweaking your stat values.

    I use:

    Crit: 0
    Dodge: 0.35
    Exp: 0.43
    Haste: 1.4
    Hit: 0.43
    Mastery: 0.5
    Parry: 0.35

    Hit: At least 2550
    Expertise: At least 5100

    As somene said your trinkets are bad.

    @ Firefly33. I've seen many of your posts in here. Can you link your armory, would like to see it.
    Last edited by Moocares; 2013-05-28 at 02:10 PM. Reason: spelling
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  10. #10
    Ehh, I wouldn't push 15% expertise as gospel. Granted I run 15%, but not everyone is at that gear level yet to really make that work.

    Your throughput and ShotR uptime will be higher on average pushing "7.5+ Exp, then haste" instead of going straight got 15 Exp. Obviously, this is a personal preference of Haste vs. Reliability, but it is worth noting.

    And I don't think anyone's lobbying to pile on Crit, just that most haste and mastery pieces this tier have Crit on them too, so you're going to just have to suck it up. It's still better than D/P anyway.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Ehh, I wouldn't push 15% expertise as gospel. Granted I run 15%, but not everyone is at that gear level yet to really make that work.

    Your throughput and ShotR uptime will be higher on average pushing "7.5+ Exp, then haste" instead of going straight got 15 Exp. Obviously, this is a personal preference of Haste vs. Reliability, but it is worth noting.

    And I don't think anyone's lobbying to pile on Crit, just that most haste and mastery pieces this tier have Crit on them too, so you're going to just have to suck it up. It's still better than D/P anyway.
    this is all fine and dandy until you miss that key CS on Horridon and don't have ShotR up for triple puncture and die. I'd actually say that if you're progressing, 15% means you have reliable mitigation and can prepare accordingly. remember, active mitigation isn't about uptime, but about correct timing. you could have 90% uptime and still manage to miss that one spell that you shouldn't have missed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 04:58 PM ----------

    also, it's perfectly possible to have a set with haste on every item and nothing with crit, apart from the 600 cloak and the neck, unless you use a 522 neck.
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  12. #12
    So, to push that in the other direction. Being at 15% expertise is all fine and dandy until you die by a melee attack 0.01 seconds before you could get that SotR off and that extra haste would have saved you. Or if you die 0.01 seconds before another SS tick would have happened, just because your haste was lower. Or if you die 0.01 seconds before and SoI tick because your haste was lower.

    It works both ways. Not saying either is right or wrong. I have been under exp cap the entire expansion. In t14 around 9-10 exp and about 12-13 now in T15.

    Only once that I can remember did I get a problem with missing a CS, I had to use AD to save the day, but I am rather sure that the extra haste saved my life more than once.

    This is more noticeable the lower item level you have.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Vito Corleone View Post
    this is all fine and dandy until you miss that key CS on Horridon and don't have ShotR up for triple puncture and die. I'd actually say that if you're progressing, 15% means you have reliable mitigation and can prepare accordingly. remember, active mitigation isn't about uptime, but about correct timing. you could have 90% uptime and still manage to miss that one spell that you shouldn't have missed.
    Or, you could just be banking HoPo like you should anyway, and this is a nonissue? You can cover every. single. nuke. with a ShotR with ZERO haste; all haste does is allow you to get additional ShotR's between nukes. How you choose to do that is up to player skill and gear level. Extra ShotR's allows for more coverage of melee (which, usually, isn't as perilous as the nukes), but even so, the basic rule of "make sure you can cover the next attack before shooting your wad" still applies.

    Edit: Also, Firefly brought up a good point above, in terms of the "intangible" benefits of haste that oft get overlooked.

    also, it's perfectly possible to have a set with haste on every item and nothing with crit, apart from the 600 cloak and the neck, unless you use a 522 neck.
    Are you talking about a 522 set? Or a Heroic set? Cause there are no Haste Helm, Shoulders, Boots without Crit available as 535+ off the top of my head. I suppose Ret tier helm (Haste/Hit IIRC) but not sure about shoulders.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Vito Corleone View Post
    this is all fine and dandy until you miss that key CS on Horridon and don't have ShotR up for triple puncture and die. I'd actually say that if you're progressing, 15% means you have reliable mitigation and can prepare accordingly. remember, active mitigation isn't about uptime, but about correct timing. you could have 90% uptime and still manage to miss that one spell that you shouldn't have missed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 04:58 PM ----------

    also, it's perfectly possible to have a set with haste on every item and nothing with crit, apart from the 600 cloak and the neck, unless you use a 522 neck.
    I'd agree but between any external + your own personals, you should always have AM up if for some reason you don't have it up. I however am a firm believe in hit/expertise capping as well. Won't even go 0.05 below.. haha it is what it is!

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  15. #15
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    Against Heroic bosses like Ji-kun, Horridon, Durumu, Lei Shen and Ra-den I would never go below the two caps. Saying that SS or SoI should've saved you instead of Sotr is complete bull shit, since those are much more passive that Sotr. If you like to rely on luck and like to use cd's randomly when you get parried then go for it. A proper Prot Paladin only relies on himself ^^
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  16. #16
    A proper paladin banks his HoPo so that getting a parried CS does not matter at all.

    Who said anything about relying on SS and SoI to tick faster. Simply stating that SoI and SS will probably save you more times than getting parried will kill you.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    A proper paladin banks his HoPo so that getting a parried CS does not matter at all.
    This. This is the basis of the argument that he and I are both saying. Note that I am also capped on both Hit and Exp, but my point remains that even without capping, you can and should be banking HoPo for the next nuke/swap/whatever. Capping accuracy, just like Haste, serves primarily to allow you a higher (and more reliable) rate of HoPo in, but even with zero haste and soft-capped expertise, you'll be able to cover every large nuke when played properly, which is really all you need.

    Who said anything about relying on SS and SoI to tick faster. Simply stating that SoI and SS will probably save you more times than getting parried will kill you.
    I think your comment was taken out of context, regarding the excess haste one might have in place of expertise playing a role in increasing survival that is much more difficult to track than a binary hit/miss of a HoPo gen.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by korpi View Post
    Since on trinkets you get actually more stamina than haste from a trinket, it is that where I pick up my stamina from. There is only one choise for that, though, and that is Lei Shens stam trinket. (I don't personally like Darkmoon Card that much, but that would be the other stamina trinket option.)
    Until your luck pulls through and Lei Shen actually drops his Soul Barrier, don't forget the 489 Shado-Pan VP trinket, Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage.

    Blows the Darkmoon Card out of the water for any self-respecting tankadin with higher STA and a lovely short-cooldown, on-use Mastery Rating boost. I have it macroed to SotR (because I'm lazy and I fail hard). Plus, it's a lot cheaper than the Relic of Niuzao, which is still 8-10k on my server (and not remotely worth it).

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    Until your luck pulls through and Lei Shen actually drops his Soul Barrier, don't forget the 489 Shado-Pan VP trinket, Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage.

    Blows the Darkmoon Card out of the water for any self-respecting tankadin with higher STA and a lovely short-cooldown, on-use Mastery Rating boost. I have it macroed to SotR (because I'm lazy and I fail hard). Plus, it's a lot cheaper than the Relic of Niuzao, which is still 8-10k on my server (and not remotely worth it).
    I'm lucky enough to have Thunderforged Sould Barrier, so I'm good, but that VP trink I had completely overlooked. That is really solid choise esp now that you get to upgrade it further with VPs.

    About earlier discussion about haste on every item: I'd still go for 4 pieces of Tier, which makes the point moot since head and shoulders are best itemized pieces of prot Tier. Offset legs would propably be the BiS choise, but since the Tier chest sucks and the first boss dishes out decent offset chest, I'd go for that + 4 set for progress. That's with us 5/12 hc with both Qon and Twins already killed.

    Haste is cleary the best stat for DPS and close second for survival, but it is really not that far ahead of all the other stats that I'd go for haste + crit pieces. Crit, in terms of survivability, (which still is the main job for us) is almost useless (I believe SoI procs can crit). Going for max haste is best on paper, but I doubt that even most of the hc raiding guilds prot paladins are good enough for rocking with it full tilt. I'm not saying that they can't pull it off with quite reasonable success (and can kill all the bosses while at it), but that most of us would propably be better off with some attention for other stats as well. At least to the point of not picking up crit gear for max haste if there is also a hit/exp/mastery choise available. Hell, even dodge or parry would propably be better idea, unless it's both of those.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by korpi View Post
    I'm lucky enough to have Thunderforged Sould Barrier, so I'm good, but that VP trink I had completely overlooked. That is really solid choise esp now that you get to upgrade it further with VPs.

    About earlier discussion about haste on every item: I'd still go for 4 pieces of Tier, which makes the point moot since head and shoulders are best itemized pieces of prot Tier. Offset legs would propably be the BiS choise, but since the Tier chest sucks and the first boss dishes out decent offset chest, I'd go for that + 4 set for progress. That's with us 5/12 hc with both Qon and Twins already killed.

    Haste is cleary the best stat for DPS and close second for survival, but it is really not that far ahead of all the other stats that I'd go for haste + crit pieces. Crit, in terms of survivability, (which still is the main job for us) is almost useless (I believe SoI procs can crit). Going for max haste is best on paper, but I doubt that even most of the hc raiding guilds prot paladins are good enough for rocking with it full tilt. I'm not saying that they can't pull it off with quite reasonable success (and can kill all the bosses while at it), but that most of us would propably be better off with some attention for other stats as well. At least to the point of not picking up crit gear for max haste if there is also a hit/exp/mastery choise available. Hell, even dodge or parry would propably be better idea, unless it's both of those.
    Since you're rocking double stam trinkets (or considering it) I can only assume/hope you're a 25m tank. 25m tank is really the only one that ever goes for our 4pc, as it is just too much wasted itemization. 2pc is really all you need, with helm/shoulders, and even that is a bit "wasteful" in 10man most times. Ret tier chest is our BIS (though I'm stuck with HC Jinrohk chest), as well as Primo hands and Durumu legs (stuck with normals on both, ugh).

    SOI proc's cannot crit. All crit provides is an increase in throughtput.

    Nobody is saying that crit is better for survival than mastery, but the problem lies in that most of the haste pieces this tier are haste/crit (meh) or haste/accuracy (yay), not haste/mastery.

    Max haste is best on paper and in practice for 10man HC, 25HC needs a bit more stam buffer. If you look up almost any 10/13+ prot, you'll see damn near full haste stacking. I'm sitting just under 17k atm and have zero problems surviving even with reforging OUT OF mastery.

    And no, dodge and/or parry is never a better idea.
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