[Shaman] How would you feel about a total class overhaul next expansion? (poll)

[Omanley]

Lol, I agree. If we assume BLizz does an overhaul, and does it well, there wont be any risks because thats what it means doing it well :P
So basically 93.6% yes, 6.4% no

Also agree on the part on pallies and locks, but nothing new here. To pallies, you could also add hunters, since they ran on mana and cooldowns as well. Enhancement shaman mana feels so pointless a recource in pve, and to punishing a recource in pvp, where we lack the tools to ensure enough uptime, and our small manapool it emptied to fast, especially through purge (yes, nerf it in addition to that :-/ ).

I already am offended by blizz through that since a long time :P => reason I quit. I keep getting my hopes up each and every beta, only to be disappointed again. It actually looked pretty good in MoP beta with the first big blue, but sadly there was no second after that, and it was just not enough, not mentioning the screw ups of new things (CPT, SBT) and the getting rid of good old things (EP, old baseline GW).

Also agree on your improvement suggestions, though I am 50/50 on the warden thing. I wouldn't be sad if we didn't get it, though I would be delighted if I could queue as a tank for no waiting times in instances. My only qualm with warden (if we got it) would be that one-element-per-spec thing. I like enh being able to utilize earth, fire and wind at the same time, with watery heals to boot.

[EruptorNZ]

A think a general touch up would suffice really, fixing the problems with each respective spec - if they did overhaul I would like to see a less sharing of abilities between specs.

From an elemental perspective i'd really like to see elemental blast staying with the spec, but maybe having more significance in the form of being a power up spell - get enough elemental energy to use it (something along those lines)

As people suggested earlier in the thread increasing the damage of flame shock, so it isn't just a lackluster dot that's sole purpose is for lava burst would be a welcomed change.

Maybe an ice spell into the rotation, like an ice shards ability?

Definitely the removal of echo of the elements, just an unwanted brain numbing rng talent that adds nothing to the shaman class.

Finally, add the Lightning Surge spell that was suggested during the MoP beta - 'The shaman surges forward 20 yards dealing lightning damage upon impact' - somewhat follows the behavior of heroic leap in terms of usage.

[Eliot123]

Elemental could certainly use more of the ''elemental'' part, imo. Where are our wind lashes, fiery shields, air elementals, earth spikes, water prisons, some sort of elemental secondary resource system and all that good stuff? >8)

[Deleted]

I voted yes for an overhaul, but thats basically just because i'd like a second resource for Shamans.

This things i'd change or add are:
Overall:
Searing Totem - Its outdated, also they said that fire and forget is no fun, but why keep it like this then. Only because its a clunky mechanic for Enhance?
Capacitor Totem - The idea is nice but a cast time/activation time on mostly a Defensive utility(for 2 spec) is not helping. Since you first need to be almost trained down before you can get away from them and thats IF you aren't stunned and interrupted that whole time.
Earthgrab Totem - While the Idea is nice, it should not be Plant roots, but something more like a sand trap as in 2nd and 3rd Bosses in ToT. Also its shouldn't break that easily. If we have a nice solution for this then Capacitor Totem could be removed too, since it's both a get out of dodge mechanic, since a glyph could make this a stun.
Shocks - More BANG for buck, since basically it's lousy damage.
Hex - Make this a Totem with a channel that can be interrupted to break it and then searches for a new target in range. To justify the long cooldown or add Hex to the Tier 3 Talents somehow. Like for TR - when Hex is dispelled or broken it reduces the cooldown or with CotE resets the cooldown of Hex(now only something for TP).
Execute - Something we lack. But not really sure how to implement.

Elemental:
Fulmination - That is just such a boring spell. It can hit really hard but with no noticeable graphic @ all. So detach it from Earth shock and make a nice Lightning Strike. It also doesn't make sense to have a Earth Magic Spell to trigger a Air Magic effect.(Yes i know both is Nature damage.)
Elemental Blast - While i do like the graphic of the spell(bugged or not), its not something i wouldn't have added. Rather see something like an Earth or Water spell. Since we already have enough Air(in the form of Lightning Bolt or CL) and Fire(Lava Burst). More focus on 1 Element. This graphic for Lava burst, yes please.
Earthquake: - Love the idea, but again a horrible implementation. Remove the cast time and make it like DnD or RoF. Another option is to make it channeled again and increase the damage by a lot, so it the go to AoE spell and make CL just a Cleave on 3 targets(no Glyph). Also some of the new NPC's in 5.3 like the boss in Secrets of Ragefire or the shamans in the Barrens have a really great looking alternative.

Restoration:
Mastery: Deep Healing - This is the best Mastery there is, BUT the sheer amount of absorbs at the moment in the game decreases the effectiveness of this mastery. Basically its like: Do you have a healer in your group with Absorbs, if so, don't spec for mastery. So a change is welcome. I opted to give our ascendance ability as mastery and cap it at a max number of targets affected by it. Effectiveness increases with more mastery.
Ascendance: - While great as it is but when our mastery is changed to something like above it should change as well. Something like, 20% of all healing done while in Ascendance leaves a Healing of Time buff on everyone within 20 yards.
Chain Heal: - Please make it like Chain Lightning 3(or 5 targets with glyph) and bake in the bigger jump of the glyph. (At the moment it always jumps even when targets are at full health, which is already a better implementation.)
Cleansing Totem: - I really would love to have this make a comeback. Treat it like Mass Dispel but for Curses/Diseases/Poisons.

Enhancement:
I haven't played Enhancement more than 30 mins this Expac, because its clunky as hell in my honest opinion. Waiting for Cooldowns of your normal abilities drop off is just wasted active time. When i play/fight i want to do something... 100% of the time, not 75% of the time because of cd's on rotational abilities. It could be that I completely missed the ball park here, but like i said not played it this expac for more than 30 mins(yes @ max level and in T14 gear). Also hard casting a SPELL as a Melee that uses Elemental Energies to Enhance your Melee attacks is just not okay imo.
Also would love to have the 2H option back, with the option to wield Polearms(since there are Agi Staves and Polearms, this will also negate the need of 2H Maces and Axes with Agi and thus not increasing the Loot tables).

Some of the thing i would like changed.

[Omanley]

@ Beriohtharion: I mostly agree on your overall points.
Your Hex idea is interesting, BUT also risky. Totems are to easy to destroy as is, and hex is already the weakest type of CC out there, without everyone being able to break it by stomping the totem. The totem would require LOTS of hp to justify that. Or we would require another cc spell.
As for the execute: A rockspike popping out of the ground, impaling the target (works like a paladins hammer). Or redesign Primal Strike, lots of possibilities really, shamans are a bundle of yet to be realised potential.

Elemental Blast: Make it a water based spell: Geysir!
Blast an area of xx yards radius with water, chilling enemies for frost damage and healing allies. 12 Second cooldown, instant cast.

[jayinjersey]

I like the more elementals idea...but they don't need to do anything, just redo some artwork


Mana Tide Totem is now Water Elemental...he does the same thing, maybe over a longer period of time or toss in a Healing Stream while he does it
Air or Lightning Ele can give everyone Nature damage for his duration...like Stormlash does now (and I'd love getting that off the Earth totem list)


In an Enh AoE thread someone said give Enh an Earthquake type spell (punches the earth with two hands thing)...that would be cool too as it would give Enh some Earth love (and make EQ worth it for Ele too)

[kosajk]

-some good defensive cd, instead of 4 minor that all have gcd
-some good cc ability instead of capaciotor which is powerful but have to many limitations and is really clunky to use and to easy to counter
-elemental unlinked from totems, etleast and expecially with PE talent
-some execute ability, like if you hit target below 25% of hp with your LL it dosent consume searing flames stacks and its cd is reseted, 10 sec cd
-a bit more mobility, when you use spirit walk you gain 2-3 sec movment imparing immunity

thats all i want to see really maybe couple glyphs baked into abilities, amount of good and usefull glyphs we have is a bit retarded

[tusker]

Elemental is just incredibly simple to play, enhancement is clunky. I actually kinda like Resto right now, it has a good bit of variety. In general, though, I feel like the Shaman class really doesn't have any direction. It just feels like such a band-aided class over time. Totems should be reworked, too. Just a lot of outdated stuff that makes one feel like Blizz just doesn't develop on them as much as some other classes.

[Noblia]

I would love to see an over haul:

1) reduce the number of buttons by at least half
2)keep windfury DW for sure
3)have a rotation that escalates sort of like arcane blast does... On 3 stacks of storm strike unleash HURRICANE BLAST! for 5 seconds. Or a great closer where you hit stormstrike w/3 stacks and unleash elements which sets off both wf procs with bonus ap and elemental effects. Something that builds quickly over time is a combo and gives you a cathartic release(that is absolutely addicting). Like when I could kill a warlock in t2 with my unstoppable 2hand hammer and I was wearing blues. The proc sucked but when it happened it felt cathartic. Something more refined and skill based would be fabulous!

[Omanley]

"I've always thought enhancement kinda lost its focus after Maelstrom was created."

Oh no, by all means, not. Maelstrom IS enhancement very soul. That spell made the spec what it is: the true hybrid dps spec. We mix melee and caster dps along with off healing like no other spec in the game does and its all thanks to that ability. Whoever came up with it deserves to have that big orc statue in blizzard HQ taken down and a statue of him/her to be placed instead.

Actually death knights and rets do the same. I do agree that msw has become a core feature over the years ,though
-I dont like how it promotes hard casting with less than five stacks.
-It also shouldn't include hex, because honestly, who else has to collect stacks for cc? Kidney shot/maim, that's it, and they are much faster to stack,on demand, and you increase the duration, not the cast time (much better).
-I dislike how it was implemented as a cheap way to slap resto and ele spells on enh, instead of designing enh specific abilities (with just stormstrike and later lava lash, enh wasn't exactly popular for its great variety of spec specific dmg spells). This makes class balance hardes and causes stagnation of spec individuality
-I dislike the lack of control on it. It is as random as imbues and in a way that's what's making it shamanistic. The only comfort we get out of it is that both sources of damage are miniscule in comparisson with SS and LL nowadays.
-The fact that we use ele spells (which is obviously supposed to perform better with it) such as lightning and shocks (though enh was the only one to use them in pve prior to wotlk) also promoted them as weak damage sources, and as a result we're a spec (what was this description I read on these forums?)...of one thousand paper cuts and bruises? Just look at our logs, they are divided into like 20-30 sources of damage :O

Imo I think rets with their art of war/exorcism and judgements are better of, since they have no caster spec to share and no hard casting to put up with.

[Northy]

Overhaul is a blanket statement with no specifics. Show me the specifics so I can decide.

[Dundebuns]

Chances of a complete overhaul are not likely. Blizzard are more likely to upset more people by changing something they are used to than they will appease by doing a change. Saying that, there have been some significant changes to the class over the last expansion or two:

Maelstrom Weapon as a resource for Enhance Shaman
New totem UI allowing up to 4 premade sets of totems to be dropped in oen click
Totem overhaul

I expect Shaman may get tidied up and get a few mechanics tightened up, but beyond getting Elemental Scaling fixed so it doesn't always suck at the start of a new raiding tier/expansion to the point where it needs a hot fix, and Enhancement AoE, I don't see much happening.

[Omanley]

Saying that, there have been some significant changes to the class over the last expansion or two:

Maelstrom Weapon as a resource for Enhance Shaman
New totem UI allowing up to 4 premade sets of totems to be dropped in oen click
Totem overhaul

-> MSW cant really count as a recource system. Aside from true recources like rage, energy, rune power, mana and focus, it cant even be compared to a moonkins' exclipse, paladins' holy power or warlock's ember's/soul shards, a dk's runes or a rogue/feral's cp system.

Rets had a talent back then that procced charges for instant heals and exorcisms, and ferals have their msw equivalent of making nature spells instant. None of these I have ever seen referred to as a recource. In pve, all a shaman uses msw for (aside from offhealing in some occassions) is lightnings, which account for a meager amount of a shamans' dps. That's no recource.

Msw was a quick and easy way for blizz to recycle ele and resto spells for enhance when wotlk hit, and blizz made their change to merge spell and melee crit/hit/haste, nothing more. It's kinda iconic for enh now, but it is no recource.

-> The premade totem sets were totally lame, and blizzard's reaction to the fact that totems were so bad, they weren't even worth their individual gcds. It showed how cheapened totems had become all the more, when they decided to allow placing four of them at once (abilities which were supposed to be shamanistic, special and powerful). Thank god they dropped it and went for the cooldown based system.

-> I wouldn't call it a totem overhaul. Totems still work the same they ever did. And that's why cooldown based totems are hit hard by being as easily countered as they ever where, only that they used to have no cooldown to compensate that with.

MSW and totems could see A LOT of work still.

[americandavey]

I dont know about an entire overhaul. I know nothing about enhancement since I gave up on that spec since BC.

There are so tweaks here and there for the other 2 specs. I find only thing I would like to see is an overhaul to the glyphs that we are able to choose from. I dont think its in there, but a way to choose if I want lightning bolt to be cast while moving or not, sucks to be in the middle of a cast and I need to disrupt something (because all know no one else is going to disrupt that spell) . Changing the schools of the spells would be nice, I doubt it will ever happen. Just plain sucks to be locked out of nature, cant damage except for FS and LB or heal.

[Dundebuns]

-> MSW cant really count as a recource system. Aside from true recources like rage, energy, rune power, mana and focus, it cant even be compared to a moonkins' exclipse, paladins' holy power or warlock's ember's/soul shards, a dk's runes or a rogue/feral's cp system.

Rets had a talent back then that procced charges for instant heals and exorcisms, and ferals have their msw equivalent of making nature spells instant. None of these I have ever seen referred to as a recource. In pve, all a shaman uses msw for (aside from offhealing in some occassions) is lightnings, which account for a meager amount of a shamans' dps. That's no recource.

Msw was a quick and easy way for blizz to recycle ele and resto spells for enhance when wotlk hit, and blizz made their change to merge spell and melee crit/hit/haste, nothing more. It's kinda iconic for enh now, but it is no recource.

-> The premade totem sets were totally lame, and blizzard's reaction to the fact that totems were so bad, they weren't even worth their individual gcds. It showed how cheapened totems had become all the more, when they decided to allow placing four of them at once (abilities which were supposed to be shamanistic, special and powerful). Thank god they dropped it and went for the cooldown based system.

-> I wouldn't call it a totem overhaul. Totems still work the same they ever did. And that's why cooldown based totems are hit hard by being as easily countered as they ever where, only that they used to have no cooldown to compensate that with.

MSW and totems could see A LOT of work still.

Proc based singular buffs that change the behavior of a spell aren't considered resource systems and rightly so, but MW is part way to becoming one, as, like mana, rage and energy, you build it up over time, and then spend it to use a spell. You can admit that if an Enhance shaman was hard casting LB is not viable and unintended, but MW allows that, the same way Holy Power allows the use of Inquisition (I think that's what it's called) and other similar spells, it's just that resto/ele spells aren't greyed out when you have no MW stacks

Even if you think the totem UI was lame, time was put into it, and Blizzards chief concern about overhauls is the amount of resources they have to devote to it to get it to the standard they are used to delivering, so I expect to them it does count as an overhaul. At least see it as showing blizz that Totems in their previous state where terrible and outdated.

As for changing totems from stat sticks into what they are now, that's a total paradigm shift. How can that not be considered an overhaul?

[Milkshake86]

Changes would be cool overhaul is a no, the current overhaul system is add combo points and remove unique features, we already lost our totems outside of glyph
what more do we need other than quality of life changes? Elemental - Flameshock/Earthshoch on different CD's, maybe a useful third level 90 talent? Elemental blast as good as it is, still a bland spell for tier 90 talent, which is debatable atm anyways with increased LvB dmg and cast when haste is a primary comfort and dps stat w/ LvB. If anything needs overhauls its the amount of useless crap in our talent trees.

[Omanley]

Proc based singular buffs that change the behavior of a spell aren't considered resource systems and rightly so, but MW is part way to becoming one, as, like mana, rage and energy, you build it up over time, and then spend it to use a spell.

MSW in pve is used for one spell only. Rage is the base requirement for every dps ability a warrior uses, same with other recource classes abilities. Neither ss, ll, ue, wolves, fs, es, st, fet nor fn use msw charges. It is no recource. And what would make it a reource really? That it has charges? So if we replaced the charges with a single proc, that works like five charges, it wouldn't be a recource anymore? It's a random proc like wf, you cant control it, you cannot pool msw charges like you do with recources, you cant pinpoint it's usage, it is simply a proc. Is a warrior's old overpower a recource? It is procced through dodges, which are based on rng, like a wf proc. It's not.

An enhance's recource is mana. It is insignificant except for pvp, but it's our recource, our only one.

You can admit that if an Enhance shaman was hard casting LB is not viable and unintended, but MW allows that, the same way Holy Power allows the use of Inquisition (I think that's what it's called) and other similar spells, it's just that resto/ele spells aren't greyed out when you have no MW stacks

Inquisition is instant cast. Baseline. It increases, through spending your secondary recource, holy power, your characters holy damage and crit chance.
I dunno if it's up to date, but here http://www.wowpedia.org/Holy_Power Basically everything that can proc holy power, is guaranteed to do so, just like a rogue is guaranteed cp after using sinister strike.
Also, a recource is a usually a requirement to actually use an ability. LB/CL/heals/Hex can all be used without msw, hence it is no recource. You cannot use dk spells that require runes without the runes, and you cannot use dk spells that require rune power without rune power. You can cast spells w/o msw, but cannot w/o mana, hence mana = recource, and msw = not.

Even if you think the totem UI was lame, time was put into it, and Blizzards chief concern about overhauls is the amount of resources they have to devote to it to get it to the standard they are used to delivering, so I expect to them it does count as an overhaul. At least see it as showing blizz that Totems in their previous state where terrible and outdated.

The very base was fine, until homogenisation required a change, which for the most par,t has yet to happen, after how many years? It took them from mid-wotlk to mop beta to make buff totems into auras and turn totems into cds. And still totems at the base didn't change.
No overhauls to totems yet. The first was a bandaid that served for 2 1/2 years, the other was only a 1/3 of the deal, the third that didn't change mechanics.

Giving paladins holy powers, removing stance restrictions from warriors, giving moonkins eclipse, making guardian a separated spec, changing the hunter pet system a bazillion times, removing ammo req, introducing focus, warlock embers...all of these: overhaul
Giving totems cooldowns, or saving three gcds on weak sticks: no overhaul

As for changing totems from stat sticks into what they are now, that's a total paradigm shift. How can that not be considered an overhaul?

Buffs are only a small amount of totems, and it is not that totems changed, it was just that buffs were not part of them any longer. No totem overhaul. If blizz changed every single totem into a spell, they would've made a (partial) class overhaul, but not a totem one. Totems would be gone, simply as that, and blizz would've run away from actually sitting down, thinking about what (individual)totems are supposed to be and what totems have to be like to be competitive, either by eliminating countless drawbacks (comes close to getting rid of totem individuality as above mentioned, but easier done), or by giving totems unique advantages to compensate for an abundance of unique drawbacks.

[Eliot123]

How about something like this for elemental (random idea):

Elemental Power (or whatever, let's call it Elemental Power for now) bar which fills up as you use shocks and Lightning Bolt. Upon reaching 100%, or 100 Elemental Powers or whatever, you get to use one of the following: either all your spells become instant and deal 50% more damage/healing, 1 charge, or your totems become empowered, 1 charge. Upon using the spell/totem, bar resets to 0. For example, you get to 100% EP, Elemental Blast becomes instant (using spells we have currently, for all I know they might change all of our spells in the next x-pac) - as well as Lava Burst and other spells that have a cast time - and deals more damage if you use your power on that spell. If you decide to use a totem, it gets an additional ability -for example, Healing Stream instantly heals 3 nearby targets for 50% more healing and continues to heal 1 target every tick for 50% more healing until it expires or is recalled; Capacitor instantly discharges, stunning all targets in 10 yards radius for 8 seconds; Grounding reflects the next 2 spells; Fire Elemental deals 50% more damage while active; Tremor also dispels stuns; et cetera. Hex could (aside from becoming instant) hex the person who dispels it, if dispelled by another player. Empowered Cleanse Spirit could cleanse everything off the target, including diseases, poisons, etc. Empowered Heroism could automatically apply Stormlash effect for all 40 seconds (but also automatically trigger Stormlash totem cooldown, assuming Stormlash survives into the next x-pac).
While at 100% EP, for aesthetics, the shaman would have an ''electric aura'' around them, a la http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3818/KR4.jpg from City of Heroes, or something similar.

The bar would fill up from 0 to full in e.g. the same time it takes a destro warlock to gain 2-3 embers maybe (I've only played mine till level 88 but I'm just talking about the principle, i.e. it wouldn't take ages of casting to fill the bar to full). In this way the system would not be the same as Balance druids have, nor to that of any Warlock spec, and it wouldn't be based on gathering a number of things like Shadow Orbs or Embers. I have no idea what it would do to stats like haste though.

...you may get your pitchforks and torches out now. *runs into the nearest windmill*

[Razecog]

Also would love to have the 2H option back

I would also love if you abandoned the shaman class, but neither will really happen.


[Infracted]

[Deleted]

I would also love if you abandoned the shaman class, but neither will really happen.

I would love that you'd stop busting my balls each time i say that, its childish and disrespectful... I'm allowed to have my opinions and views and share it on a forum.
Never said you need to like it!