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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    we don't have an ability called Stormlash...
    it's called stormlash totem...
    but yeah that part is not worded the greatest
    Last edited by bals; 2013-06-14 at 04:20 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    we don't have an ability called Stormlash...
    Yes, but stormlash is one of our sources of damage, and it seems to take our spell crit chance, so I thought it was worth mentioning. Do you have a suggestion for re-wording it?
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  3. #23
    I think it's worded fine you just have to use your brain.

  4. #24
    The Patient Divinism's Avatar
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    Which one of the 75 tier talents (rune regeneration) is the best for unholy? I've read from icy-veins guide and some forums that Blood Tap would be the best due to the control it gives to you, but yet I see most using Runic Corruption. Is the difference so neglible that it comes down to preference, or does RC get better with gear?

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans Razorice's Avatar
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    Okay guys, I just came back to my DK after a break and I'm Frost-2H. I have a question for you all, Should I be hitting Obliterate every time I have the runes available for it? Should I be Obliterating even if my RP is high?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Divinitum View Post
    Which one of the 75 tier talents (rune regeneration) is the best for unholy? I've read from icy-veins guide and some forums that Blood Tap would be the best due to the control it gives to you, but yet I see most using Runic Corruption. Is the difference so neglible that it comes down to preference, or does RC get better with gear?
    for festerblight, i feel RC is better because it regens all the runes better and syncs better with festerstrike.

    0% facts for that, just how i feel while playing.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Divinitum View Post
    Which one of the 75 tier talents (rune regeneration) is the best for unholy? I've read from icy-veins guide and some forums that Blood Tap would be the best due to the control it gives to you, but yet I see most using Runic Corruption. Is the difference so neglible that it comes down to preference, or does RC get better with gear?
    Neither talent scales better, RC duration goes down as you get more haste, and remains balanced. As far as which talent is best, you will generally get the best result with whatever you feel most comfortable using. That's why most people defer to RC, it's smooth and feels good. From a purely numbers point, properly managed BT is about 1k ahead of RE, which is about 400 ahead of RC. RC feels the best in practice though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    Okay guys, I just came back to my DK after a break and I'm Frost-2H. I have a question for you all, Should I be hitting Obliterate every time I have the runes available for it? Should I be Obliterating even if my RP is high?
    No, the most important part of playing a dk is not wasting resources. Runes are not wasted unless they are not regenerating at all now, this allows us to "bank" one of each rune in reserve without losing anything, and you should try to avoid overcapping on runes or runic power (or t5 procs or km procs or rime procs). If you have 76+ runic and you are not about to cap on runes, don't oblit, use FS instead.
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  8. #28
    Mendenbarr, i have another stupid question!

    Right now and especially in the next rier stats/haste/rune regen is high/will be high, and DW is already close to GCD cap, is it possible, that an alternate priority/rotation for DW with more obli is more DPS? Maybe with RC? im too lazy to do the math...
    and i tought that Karel Gott is all the czech got:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39_1fUkxfZ0&feature=related

  9. #29
    The only stupid question is one that's already on the front page, and this isn't!

    RC actually makes the haste problem worse, BT makes it better. RC/RE are both random, and you can get lucky streak or unlucky streaks. Unlucky streaks are bad, but so are lucky streaks, because they lead to overcapping. BT has no luck, it has banked charges, which is awesome. If you don't have GCDs up, you can just save the charges for later, and as soon as you do have room, you can use them, cutting WAY down on wasted T5 procs.

    As far as oblit vs. HB, it's POSSIBLE. Right now, oblit technically has a higher DPET, but as we gear up and get more haste, we also get more mastery, which scales HB and not oblit. I will be running the math on that if the set bonuses don't change when we get a bit closer to 5.4.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendenbarr View Post
    The only stupid question is one that's already on the front page, and this isn't!
    "but what about DW tanking?"

    no, im just kidding. Though it may be worth putting on the front page just to make sure it doesn't come up again. And Mendenbarr, i know the paladins have some very extensive simmers and theory crafters going with very published results (eg: theck); do we, as DKs, have that same kind of stuff available to us via published results or do we keep our theorycrafted numbers to ourselves as it seems. I'd like to look through numbers to see what I want to do instead of reading secondhand recounts of the data.

    EDIT: as i scrolled to the top of the screen to go back to the forums i saw your sig.
    Last edited by Kamiyomi; 2013-06-18 at 04:58 PM.

  11. #31
    EJ has a pretty good set of conversations in the guide and advanced tactics discussions, and I've been trying to half as good as Theck's amazing work with the blog in my sig.

    There are a few other dk blogs, but not many of them are updated on a regular basis.

    http://destinysoftworks.blogspot.com/ is written by me, some random dude.
    http://sonofalich.com/ is written by Matron Heartless, the amazing author of the unholy guide on EJ.
    If I find anymore I'll add them here.
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  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mendenbarr View Post
    The only stupid question is one that's already on the front page, and this isn't!

    RC actually makes the haste problem worse, BT makes it better. RC/RE are both random, and you can get lucky streak or unlucky streaks. Unlucky streaks are bad, but so are lucky streaks, because they lead to overcapping. BT has no luck, it has banked charges, which is awesome. If you don't have GCDs up, you can just save the charges for later, and as soon as you do have room, you can use them, cutting WAY down on wasted T5 procs.

    As far as oblit vs. HB, it's POSSIBLE. Right now, oblit technically has a higher DPET, but as we gear up and get more haste, we also get more mastery, which scales HB and not oblit. I will be running the math on that if the set bonuses don't change when we get a bit closer to 5.4.
    I'm still going to disagree with you here. Even if something *feels* bad if you are utilizing resources at 100% efficiency it is NOT bad to waste them. That being said, if BT handles potentially wasted resources better through various means it might be better, but saying being lucky with RC procs is bad is not at all true. For it to be true getting lucky would have to cost DPS, not resources.

  13. #33


    This is a basic bell curve, which can represent the percentage chance of getting a particular amount of RC/RE procs. In the very middle, the chance is highest, which is another way of saying you have a statistically good chance of getting "average" luck. The lower or higher you go above average, the lower the chance of getting that particular number of procs. The "average" number of procs you will see is the dotted line in the middle.



    This is the bell curve when there is an upper limit on what you can benefit from good luck. All of the bad luck doesn't change, but you lose the benefit from good luck, and that part gets erased from the benefit. The "average" benefit moves from the dotted line to the red line, which overall reduces the benefit from the talent.



    This is BT. While it might have a slightly lower overall average runes generated, it doesn't get lucky or unlucky streaks, and therefore it's average is higher than the average of RC/RE with a certain upper limit on benefit. Hope this helps explain a bit, it's a tricky concept to wrap your head around.
    Last edited by Mendenbarr; 2013-06-18 at 11:26 PM.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendenbarr View Post
    This is the bell curve when there is an upper limit on what you can benefit from good luck. All of the bad luck doesn't change, but you lose the benefit from good luck, and that part gets erased from the benefit. The "average" benefit moves from the dotted line to the red line, which overall reduces the benefit from the talent.
    I think you're unfairly demonizing RNG. While I understand what you're trying to communicate, I think the presentation can be misleading, because it leads to the conclusion that lucky streaks are actually "bad," when really what you're trying to say is that the rune waste from lucky streaks is bad. Lucky streaks, by definition, are good, regardless of rune waste. You're getting more procs than you should be getting on average--that's always a gain. In that regard, Darkfriend is correct.

    You're basically trying to say that to the left of the mean, it's like (mean - x), and to the right of the mean, it's like (mean + x/2) in terms of value. So, if you take the area under the curve from the mean to the left some amount and multiply it by the "value" of a proc (x), and you take the area under the curve from the mean to the right by the same amount and multiply it by the value of a proc (x/2, completely arbitrary), the left-hand side is larger--that is, lucky streaks don't have the same value as unlucky streaks to cancel them out; that doesn't at all imply that lucky streaks are bad (not saying that you are, but it can be inferred).
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendenbarr View Post
    Yes, but stormlash is one of our sources of damage, and it seems to take our spell crit chance, so I thought it was worth mentioning. Do you have a suggestion for re-wording it?
    I didn't know anything about stormlash totem so this was definitely confusing to me.

    Looked it up and I get it now.

    The stormlash totem placed by a shaman in our party/raid will proc 100% off our attacks, and crit off of our spell crit chance.

    "...Death and Decay, Death Coil, Stormlash, and Howling Blast all use the spell crit chance instead of the melee crit chance..."

    Maybe that could change to something like

    "...Howling Blast, Death Coil, Death and Decay, and Stormlash (from a shaman in same party/raid) all use the spell crit chance instead of the melee crit chance..."

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    I think you're unfairly demonizing RNG. While I understand what you're trying to communicate, I think the presentation can be misleading, because it leads to the conclusion that lucky streaks are actually "bad," when really what you're trying to say is that the rune waste from lucky streaks is bad. Lucky streaks, by definition, are good, regardless of rune waste. You're getting more procs than you should be getting on average--that's always a gain. In that regard, Darkfriend is correct.

    You're basically trying to say that to the left of the mean, it's like (mean - x), and to the right of the mean, it's like (mean + x/2) in terms of value. So, if you take the area under the curve from the mean to the left some amount and multiply it by the "value" of a proc (x), and you take the area under the curve from the mean to the right by the same amount and multiply it by the value of a proc (x/2, completely arbitrary), the left-hand side is larger--that is, lucky streaks don't have the same value as unlucky streaks to cancel them out; that doesn't at all imply that lucky streaks are bad (not saying that you are, but it can be inferred).


    You're right, I suppose a simpler way of putting it would be that the lucky streaks are good, but if you waste part of them from overcapping, then they don't outweigh the bad luck streaks and that brings down the total value. It's not bad to get a lucky streak, it is by definition lucky, which implies good luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by potatoe View Post
    I didn't know anything about stormlash totem so this was definitely confusing to me.

    Looked it up and I get it now.

    The stormlash totem placed by a shaman in our party/raid will proc 100% off our attacks, and crit off of our spell crit chance.

    "...Death and Decay, Death Coil, Stormlash, and Howling Blast all use the spell crit chance instead of the melee crit chance..."

    Maybe that could change to something like

    "...Howling Blast, Death Coil, Death and Decay, and Stormlash (from a shaman in same party/raid) all use the spell crit chance instead of the melee crit chance..."

    Fixed, thanks for the input!
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  17. #37
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Q: Is DW unholy/blood viable?
    A: GTFO

    OT - How good would a new trinket (providing it doesn't have the same sort of proc) have to be to replace a HC/HCTF feather next tier? :-P
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendenbarr View Post
    The only stupid question is one that's already on the front page, and this isn't!

    RC actually makes the haste problem worse, BT makes it better. RC/RE are both random, and you can get lucky streak or unlucky streaks. Unlucky streaks are bad, but so are lucky streaks, because they lead to overcapping. BT has no luck, it has banked charges, which is awesome. If you don't have GCDs up, you can just save the charges for later, and as soon as you do have room, you can use them, cutting WAY down on wasted T5 procs.

    As far as oblit vs. HB, it's POSSIBLE. Right now, oblit technically has a higher DPET, but as we gear up and get more haste, we also get more mastery, which scales HB and not oblit. I will be running the math on that if the set bonuses don't change when we get a bit closer to 5.4.
    Uhm, no, im thinking about something different.

    Foreword for anybody: my little rabid theory have absolutely no mathematical backup, done none, thats why im asking mendenbarr .

    Right now, resource management practically means mostly rune management. Im thinking about turning it over somehow for DW. I have a feeling, that rate FS scales overall with gear (weapon damage/mastery, str) overshadows the damage loss for obli against HB (due mastery) with the RP regen and the hifher DPET.

    Im thinking about a real FS spam, with obli at zero RP, and i have the feeling - no maths behind - that after some haste/rune regen and the occasional RC usage, its viable and more single target DPS than the current priority.
    and i tought that Karel Gott is all the czech got:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39_1fUkxfZ0&feature=related

  19. #39
    Question!

    Do LFR fights that permit festerblight last long enough to see a significant DPS increase?
    Sig got me infracted. This will have to do.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    Q: Is DW unholy/blood viable?
    A: GTFO

    OT - How good would a new trinket (providing it doesn't have the same sort of proc) have to be to replace a HC/HCTF feather next tier? :-P
    I'll add a note about DW.

    For frost, it would have to be decent, but not THAT amazing. An average trinket in the normal mode of next raid will most likely beat a normal feather, but not a heroic feather. For unholy, it's going to have to be pretty damn good. Unless one happens to synergize with unholy half as well as feather, it's within the realm of possibility that feather remains BiS for 5.4. Unless they nerf feather, which is what they did to the 2-set t14 when people were thinking about using it to raid next patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalamona View Post
    Uhm, no, im thinking about something different.

    Foreword for anybody: my little rabid theory have absolutely no mathematical backup, done none, thats why im asking mendenbarr .

    Right now, resource management practically means mostly rune management. Im thinking about turning it over somehow for DW. I have a feeling, that rate FS scales overall with gear (weapon damage/mastery, str) overshadows the damage loss for obli against HB (due mastery) with the RP regen and the hifher DPET.

    Im thinking about a real FS spam, with obli at zero RP, and i have the feeling - no maths behind - that after some haste/rune regen and the occasional RC usage, its viable and more single target DPS than the current priority.

    Well, let's look at the average hit in 541 gear. The reason I'm not taking DPET is because it includes KM procs, and the problem with spamming obit as DW frost is that, not only do you gain 0 extra KM procs from the bonus rune regen speed, you also LOSE KM procs to oblit usage that would of otherwise gone to FS. Ignoring that for the time being:

    FS: 120134
    HB: 104633
    OB: 83346

    Each obliterate in place of a HB (speaking from a GCD point of view, and assuming infinite runes) costs 21287 damage. The gain would be an additional 12 runic generated per GCD. An extra FS would be used at the cost of an obliterate. The gain would be 36788 damage. 12/20 (60%) of a FS is therefore a gain of 22073 damage, a pitiful 800 over the loss from using oblit. I highly doubt that the extra km procs wasted on oblit would not account for more than that, so it seems to be a loss even with infinite runes. It's surprisingly close though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Abominae View Post
    Question!

    Do LFR fights that permit festerblight last long enough to see a significant DPS increase?


    Yep, as long as the boss dies after you let diseases fall off, FB can be used on any fight longer than a minute for a significant (1-5%) gain.
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