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  1. #1

    A deeper look at Necrotic Plague vs Defile (for 2H Frost)

    Hello, everyone. I know there are various threads on this but I'm talking strictly for 2H Frost, I'm posting logs, posting my own personal simulations, and comparing the two. I want to discuss this on more than just a, "What does more damage?" level, but on a level of, "what fits in to rune usage and makes for a smoother rotation to allow more dps?" level.

    Here is my armory:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...llborne/simple



    Here are the only logs I have of which I tried NP (our Mythic Twins kill last week):

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...=14776&e=15188



    Here is some simulation work I have just done (these simulations are using a couple upgrades I did not have during raid in the above logs):

    With Defile on Single Target Patchwerk: 32866.8 dps (defile makes up 5.7%)
    With NP on Single Target Patchwerk: 31954.6 dps (np makes up 4.6%)

    As you can see, sims show Defile ahead by 912.2 dps.

    My two questions for making this post are;

    1.) There aren't many encounters where the boss just sits in Defile. This is where sims become problematic, as they cannot perfectly mock a real raid encounter. If you look at my logs from the Mythic Twins encounter, Necrotic Plague did more damage than Howling Blast did... 0.o With all of the chaos going on in that fight, it's not easy to keep those bosses stationary and maintain uptime on Defile. Does that make enough of a difference to justify using NP?

    2.) Speaking for 2H Frost only, NP is extremely convenient to use alongside Plague Leech because it means that you no longer need to take runes away from Obliterate by using Plague Strike to apply Blood Plague, you can simply apply NP with your next Rime procced Howling Blast and you're good to go. Whereas, having to use Defile makes for less Obliterates. NP is very fluid with the 2H, Defile not so much. Also, Defile is Shadowfrost damage. 2H doesn't stack Mastery so it would seem much less valuable to me?

    Thanks in advance for any input

  2. #2
    I started running PL + NP for 2H Frost a few weeks ago. I really like it.
    Minimal dps loss (if any) for a huge quality of life increase with the easy rotation.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gwraith/simple (8/8 H T13; 7/7 H T12 - F.U. Ragnaros)
    Quote Originally Posted by kumduh View Post
    @Wingwraith: You can haz a point too, but only because you admit you're a tool!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellborne87 View Post
    2.) Speaking for 2H Frost only, NP is extremely convenient to use alongside Plague Leech because it means that you no longer need to take runes away from Obliterate by using Plague Strike to apply Blood Plague, you can simply apply NP with your next Rime procced Howling Blast and you're good to go. Whereas, having to use Defile makes for less Obliterates. NP is very fluid with the 2H, Defile not so much. Also, Defile is Shadowfrost damage. 2H doesn't stack Mastery so it would seem much less valuable to me?
    It also gets even clunkier sub-35% when Soul Reaper is added in the mix. Might try this out for fun, the potentially smoother gameplay might be easier to actually play optimally, factoring in swing timers and all. The whole sim vs real-world debate, yadda yadda.

    Just curious as I haven't played with NP yet outside of PvP: you'd use PL just before NP's last tick to optimize NP's uptime, or use PL on CD (at the next Rime proc) to optimize total number of Oblits? Raiding tonight, might get my feet wet. Not planning on Mythic anytime soon, so a marginal dps difference won't make or break for me, but would like to know the optimal way to play the NP/PL combo.

    Thanks for bringing this up for 2h frost, I switched back to it from Unholy after last week's changes and am intrigued now.
    Last edited by Azzkikkrr; 2015-01-20 at 07:46 PM. Reason: for clarity

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Azzkikkrr View Post
    you'd use PL just before NP's last tick to optimize NP's uptime, or use PL on CD (at the next Rime proc) to optimize total number of Oblits?
    I use PL on CD. I figure the extra Oblit's outweigh the lost NP ticks.
    Between Rime procs and Outbreak, I always have something to reapply NP with.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gwraith/simple (8/8 H T13; 7/7 H T12 - F.U. Ragnaros)
    Quote Originally Posted by kumduh View Post
    @Wingwraith: You can haz a point too, but only because you admit you're a tool!

  5. #5
    ^ Exactly what Wingwraith said. That's how I have been doing it. Leech on cd and diseases being reapplied with a free HB just feels too good.

  6. #6
    Are you still using D&D? Do you ever use plague strike?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Skul View Post
    Are you still using D&D? Do you ever use plague strike?
    Plague strike becomes 100% useless as frost with NP, not sure about D&D
    You cannot trust, nor take seriously, an adult male without facial hair.Boys have no facial hair and boys are not men.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    Plague strike becomes 100% useless as frost with NP, not sure about D&D
    Gotcha, but in the event you are out of frost runes but still have unholy, would you use PS just for the additional NP stack?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Skul View Post
    Gotcha, but in the event you are out of frost runes but still have unholy, would you use PS just for the additional NP stack?
    Just save it for obliterate, unless you have both unholy ready, low rp, and still several seconds of wait for next frost or death
    You cannot trust, nor take seriously, an adult male without facial hair.Boys have no facial hair and boys are not men.
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  10. #10
    Anyone have logs of this style? I'll give it a go this week on mythic this week... NP wrecks adds at 15 stacks on most mythic fights as unholy. Interesting to see how it'll preform without festering strike/ unholy blight.

    As for the talk of our rotation being clunky... It totally is but blood tap is awesome for filling in those GCD holes and makes it much easier to keep a PS or soul reaper banked and has made it considerably easier on me...though learning to use BT takes some time and a keybind

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Azzkikkrr View Post
    It also gets even clunkier sub-35% when Soul Reaper is added in the mix.
    This is the only thing that makes me wish NP was a bit higher on damage, once you get 35% its like your runes have their laces tied to each other and are tripping everywhere, it gets so hectic.

  12. #12
    The Patient Enfilade's Avatar
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    I am a long-time Frost DK, and have always loved how fast our "rotation" feels. The only thing I don't much care for is when we get into execute range and the fact that weaving in Soul Reaper in between Obliterates dramatically slows down how 2H Frost feels.

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Enfilade View Post
    weaving in Soul Reaper in between Obliterates dramatically slows down how 2H Frost feels.
    especially seeing how slow frost plays as it is already

  14. #14
    Largest disparity I had between PL+Def vs PL+NP was 1k dps, in some fights a gain, some a drop. Had a couple upgrades drop which also influences the numbers, but overall average was a gap of ~350 dps for heroic 6/7.

    Completely anecdotal, but not a colossal difference at least after my initial run with that combo. A couple encounters were a little sloppy.
    Last edited by Azzkikkrr; 2015-01-21 at 08:29 PM.

  15. #15
    Probably the best thread I read today.

    I generally tank, but am always up in the air on what to have as my off-spec in case I'm needed to DPS on certain fights which hasn't been the case yet, but I want to not completely suck when/if the time comes. I switched from Frost to UH after last weeks buffs but I am just awful at it, hopefully just due to lack of practice?

    I'd rather just faceroll some Oblits with NP/PL (since I usually forget about Defile anyhow) and worry about the boss mechanics.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enfilade View Post
    I am a long-time Frost DK, and have always loved how fast our "rotation" feels. The only thing I don't much care for is when we get into execute range and the fact that weaving in Soul Reaper in between Obliterates dramatically slows down how 2H Frost feels.
    I've been syncing my runes by using SR only on deaths, and keeping F/U pairs for oblit, and HB for the spare death. The recent buff to Icy Talons really helps as with my regen normally a top death become available just as SR procs keeping the flow of the rotation going plus you have PL if you run into trouble and don't want to desync.
    Last edited by Osanger; 2015-01-22 at 12:52 PM.

  17. #17
    Ignoring my last post (I'll edit this out once the offtopic post gets handled)

    As far as mathing goes there is no way this is viable. From a quality-of-life standpoint it's probably an improvement but honestly I've gotten so used to the current 2h rotation I found myself still hitting PS.

    That aside here are some quick numbers from a 5min- 2 target fight.
    First Attempt (using PL/NP): NP did 500k damage over 5 minutes, my rotation was about the same.
    Second Attempt (using PL/DeF): Defile did 625k damage over 5 minutes and my FF/BP did about 500k dps over 5 minutes.
    Sadly the logs didn't upload because warcraftlogs was being stupid last night.
    Basically what I found is that as 2h frost its very hard to get NP to 15 stacks (which is where it really starts to be a dps increase). Throughout the fight it would frequently only be hitting 15 stacks by the time I wanted to PL it off. I wish this was more viable but it really isn't, we pay too large a price to get NP to 15 stacks/

    TL;DR: PL/NP is a large enough dps loss that it doesn't have a place in mythics. Other difficulties at this point are "play what you like"

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by foxes View Post
    First Attempt (using PL/NP): NP did 500k damage over 5 minutes, my rotation was about the same.
    Second Attempt (using PL/DeF): Defile did 625k damage over 5 minutes and my FF/BP did about 500k dps over 5 minutes.
    Your example doesn't account for the additional Obit's when not using Defile and Plague Strike.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gwraith/simple (8/8 H T13; 7/7 H T12 - F.U. Ragnaros)
    Quote Originally Posted by kumduh View Post
    @Wingwraith: You can haz a point too, but only because you admit you're a tool!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by foxes View Post
    As far as mathing goes there is no way this is viable.
    NP is perfectly viable. What you mean is NP isn't OPTIMAL. Even if you are able to play with the efficiency of a simulation, you lose less than 1k DPS by choosing NP over defile. If you gain some satisfaction by "crushing meters" then yeah NP probably isn't going to be your choice, but ultimately NP is a viable choice; it just isn't optimal. Whether or not you believe you have to be fully "optimized" to kill a boss is another matter.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulvye View Post
    NP is perfectly viable. What you mean is NP isn't OPTIMAL. Even if you are able to play with the efficiency of a simulation, you lose less than 1k DPS by choosing NP over defile. If you gain some satisfaction by "crushing meters" then yeah NP probably isn't going to be your choice, but ultimately NP is a viable choice; it just isn't optimal. Whether or not you believe you have to be fully "optimized" to kill a boss is another matter.
    Also, the simple rotation leads to higher efficiency.

    If PL+Defile sims at 30k
    But you can only get 90% efficiency, you're at 27k

    If PL+NP sims at 29k
    And you can get 96% efficiency, you're at 27,840
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gwraith/simple (8/8 H T13; 7/7 H T12 - F.U. Ragnaros)
    Quote Originally Posted by kumduh View Post
    @Wingwraith: You can haz a point too, but only because you admit you're a tool!

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