1. #1
    The Patient Mirdamor's Avatar
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    the manipulation of energies in warcraft

    Hello, I've come the conclusion that this is canon. That these branches are set aside from each other and have no link between them in any shape or form.

    Light
    Fel Energies
    Nature
    Arcane
    Elements

    This quote describe my current standpoint on all this because it seems to make a lot of sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Let's take the example of fire... some magi believe that you summon it into existence from nothing. Others believe you summon it from its elemental plane. Others believe you take the natural aspects of fire from your surroundings and concentrate it into a single point, summoning it into being that way. Personally speaking I like the third one the best, but the second one is also a possibility.
    So for example; there are beings which have, want or can control a force and with that power have the ability to do... stuff...

    Like e.g. a necromancer is in fact a being that control the... arcane to manipulate life force and therefor it has nothing to do with e.g. fel energies which a warlock control or nature magic... stuff... druids control.
    Another example: A mage who make a fireball can do it in two ways either he/she/it use the arcane to manipulate the raw form of fire, or commune with the elemental spirits for the ability(which could be done in many ways).

    So in short words we have these 5 forces which people choose to control in order to do stuff?
    and they have nothing to do with eachother.

    How much wrong am I?

  2. #2
    High Overlord Strifus's Avatar
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    Would Nature magic not be a combination of elemental magic? E.G. Shamans healing through nature, but they use water?

  3. #3
    At least from the RPG books, there's two kinds of magics: arcane and divine.

    Divine magic is received from a faith in gods or spirits, while arcane magic is gained through one's inner strength and raw magical talent. As an example, druids and shaman get their power from the emerald dream / nature and the elemental spirits, respectively, so their magics are part of the divine branch. On the other hand, mages and warlocks get their power from their inner strength and knowledge, which makes their magics arcane in nature.

    This, I've found, is a much better way to look at the different magic schools rather than them all being separate because there's a lot of overlap between them, especially when we bring elemental magic into the mix... since that can be both used by magi and shaman, who use this common magic in very different ways. Separating magic not by what it is but by how a spellcaster acquires this power and how they wield it is, at least in my opinion, a better categorization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strifus View Post
    Would Nature magic not be a combination of elemental magic? E.G. Shamans healing through nature, but they use water?
    Nature magics are a pretty broad category. In fact elemental magics are a subcategory of both arcane and nature magics.

    Nature includes the manipulation of life, water, earth, air, and fire. Druids focus on the life aspect, which allows them access to their bestial forms as well as manipulate flora. Shaman focus on the more elemental parts of it (though they too work with life magic in the form of the Spirit of Life, though this isn't shown as well in-game).

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    At least from the RPG books, there's two kinds of magics: arcane and divine.

    Divine magic is received from a faith in gods or spirits, while arcane magic is gained through one's inner strength and raw magical talent. As an example, druids and shaman get their power from the emerald dream / nature and the elemental spirits, respectively, so their magics are part of the divine branch. On the other hand, mages and warlocks get their power from their inner strength and knowledge, which makes their magics arcane in nature.

    This, I've found, is a much better way to look at the different magic schools rather than them all being separate because there's a lot of overlap between them, especially when we bring elemental magic into the mix... since that can be both used by magi and shaman, who use this common magic in very different ways. Separating magic not by what it is but by how a spellcaster acquires this power and how they wield it is, at least in my opinion, a better categorization.
    Also comparing Elemental magic between Magi and Shaman its all about where it comes from, If I remember correctly all of Magi magic is somehow derived from the twisting nether while Shaman magic is derived from spirits and Elementals. Arcane Vs Divine.



    Nature magics are a pretty broad category. In fact elemental magics are a subcategory of both arcane and nature magics.

    Nature includes the manipulation of life, water, earth, air, and fire. Druids focus on the life aspect, which allows them access to their bestial forms as well as manipulate flora. Shaman focus on the more elemental parts of it (though they too work with life magic in the form of the Spirit of Life, though this isn't shown as well in-game).
    This pretty much, Arcane: Elements (Frost, Fire), Fel, Time, Conjuration, Illusion, pure Arcane, necromancy etc etc, Divine: Nature, power from elementals (Taking fire from the plane of fire so in a way is more like pure fire compared to "arcane" fire), power from spirits, the Light, etc...
    Also to continue on Magi vs Shaman in elemental magic its all about where it comes from, If I remember correctly all of Magi magic comes from the twisting nether (Arcane) while Shaman get theirs from the Elements or elemental plane (divine.)
    Last edited by Landin55; 2013-05-29 at 02:43 AM.
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  5. #5
    Role-player Khorianas's Avatar
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    To be honest I would take a completely different approach on this. The Categorisation is difficult since there often is an overlap in certain energies, And the Lore sugggest much but sadly explains nearly nothing. Also difficult in this regard is the Spell schools from the game. We can't determine if they have Lore implications or are merely gameplay mechanics. If it were my decision, I would disregard the in-game school for Lore discussions. (Since in game druids can wrath the sh** out of a squirrel because they are bored, which is nonsense lore wise.)

    From a roleplayers point of view I would say the most important thing is to understand where those magics come from, and what is ingame believed where they come from.

    The souce of arcane energies on Azeroth is, if it hasn't been retconed, the energies of the original well of Eternity which are dispersed all over azeroth since it's collapse in the War of the Ancients. So this explains the omnipresence of arcane energies. This is "pure" or lets say purer magic energy. While it is still addictive to a certain degree (see: Bloodelves) it does not corrupt as fast as energy from the twisting Nether and fel energy.
    Divine Magic is granted from a God or Godlike entity. So Druidic Magic (the classic druids revere Elune and get their powers from her.) And Paladin/Bloodknight/Sunwalker/Vindicator magic is all divine. Sunwalkers revere a moon and Sun god respectively as Druids and Paladins. Human Dwarven and Draenei Paladins get their powers from "The Light" which is a rather abstact god like entity. Draenei and the new Bloodknights see the N'aaru as Heralds of that divine will. (The new Sunwell was born from a Dying N'aaru.) I would even count shadowpriest magic and Necromancy into this category as the counterpoint/opposing force of Divine magic. During the Rebirth of the sunwell It was metnioned that "There is no Light without shadow" Then again the N'aaru that resparked the Sunwell was turned into a Void Lord before, which would then again suggest a connection to twisting nether and fel energies. so there seem many overlaps and similarities there, which make a clear separation of those energies nigh impossible.

    But from a roleplayers POV it might not even be necessary since it gives nice opportunities to discuss this in character. From what I have seen all opinions represented in this thread would be valid for an Ingame character to believe in.

  6. #6
    I'm with the mad god on this one, and the lore fanatics I've encountered tend to be on this questionably canon, RPG inspired, and nonetheless sensible page.

    There are a lot of different kinds of magic, more even than those that you listed. Unholy, for instance. There area lot of in world 'sources' described, too, such as ley lines, the Lich King, great relics, sunwell, well of eternity, the twisting nether, the emeral dream, elementals and their planes, and probably a bunch more I'm missing. There will be more added as time goes by, too.

    It's easier to think of them as two broad categories. Divine magic which is received, and Arcane magic which is taken. Divine magic comes from something tremendously larger than oneself, and is either consciously granted, or accessed by being in-tune with (or having great faith in) that source. In WoW, unlike D&D, divine magic doesn't just come from gods, and a paladin devoutly serving the light can commit objectively evil acts and not lose his powers (e.g. The Scarlet crusade). That's because moral relativism reigns in the WoW setting, and that has a huge impact on the definitive nature of Divine magic. It works a lot like Eberron.

    Arcane magic is classically the same as in a lot of D&D derived fantasy. It is a power anyone can learn, is not granted but taken and commanded with varying levels of skill and subsequent power, and in very broad terms is general corrupting and unwholesome. Plain ol' arcane arcane magic is the least harmful of the lot, but we've seen the wretched, entire societies becoming addicted, countless NPCs driven mad with power, the attraction of the burning legion to Azeroth by it's use, and it's wholesale prohibition in some parts. Also consider that many necromancers and warlocks start of as first as mages, then progress to the more harmful extremities of arcana.

    Broadly speaking divine magic is stable and wholesome, whereas arcane magic corrupts and is quite unstable. The line between who uses what isn't perfectly clear cut, either. Druids use both arcane magic and nature magic. Shamans are nominally commanding divine elemental magic, and paladins use divine light magic; but questions arise to the nature of Twilight Shamans and BC Blood Knights who shackled and forcibly took their divine magic (does that make it arcane? Or is it an exception? Or are they just forcibly gaining permission like other divine users?).

    Finally, there is quasimagic that we're not even totally sure is magic, and doesn't fit perfectly into this dichotomy. Rogues have a number of shadow-themed supernatural abilities, like shadowstep, which might be just a gameplay mechanic, or could be divine shadow magic, or something else entirely. Shadow magic is generally accepted as a dualistic and necessary counterpart to the light, but are shadow wielders accessing shadow magic in a traditionally divine way (with permission or attunement)? Is Troll Voodoo quasi-divine shadow magic, divine loa magic, arcane, all of these, or something else?

    There is no definitive answer, and isn't likely every to be one. Any total explanation would most likely contradict specific examples in lore, and thus Blizz is likely to keep it vague.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 06:16 PM ----------

    I'll add, though, that since this is so vague, I personally don't get tetchy with variant or even inventive personal explanations. If someone says they're a mage because they were born with weird powers, or claims that their troll druid commands nature magic not by devotion but as a witch doctor; I don't take issue. ICly I like to think of the indistinct mechanics of magic as being a matter of ignorance- maybe there is a simple and definitive explanation for it all, but we don't know what it is. In times past we knew hot iron ore became magnetic, but we didn't know what magnetism was, how it worked, and that it falls on the same spectrum as electricity and light. Just likie how now we don't know where gravity fits into a hypothetical grand united theory along side the established forces of physics and more hypothetical forces of quantum physics.

    Magic is an unusual and mysterious phenomena with many purported experts but few actual explanations. Ask an ancient greek doctor why you had a cold and he'd tell you that the 4 humours that made up your body were out of balance, possibly because of the moon, then apply a sensible treatment based off this warped understanding which nonetheless worked.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirdamor View Post
    Hello, I've come the conclusion that this is canon. That these branches are set aside from each other and have no link between them in any shape or form.

    Light
    Fel Energies
    Nature
    Arcane
    Elements

    This quote describe my current standpoint on all this because it seems to make a lot of sense.


    So for example; there are beings which have, want or can control a force and with that power have the ability to do... stuff...

    Like e.g. a necromancer is in fact a being that control the... arcane to manipulate life force and therefor it has nothing to do with e.g. fel energies which a warlock control or nature magic... stuff... druids control.
    Another example: A mage who make a fireball can do it in two ways either he/she/it use the arcane to manipulate the raw form of fire, or commune with the elemental spirits for the ability(which could be done in many ways).

    So in short words we have these 5 forces which people choose to control in order to do stuff?
    and they have nothing to do with eachother.

    How much wrong am I?
    In Warcraft there are only two forms of magic. Arcane and Divine. The difference comes from the source. Nature/Holy is Divine Magic. Fire/Frost/Fel/Shadow?/Arcane is Arcane Magic. Arcane magic, in a sense, takes and forces the world around them. They use the ley lines around Azeroth to create magic. Divine magic is more of a "I will worship you, and I will prove that I deserve this." kind of deal.

    Arcane corrupts, is addictive. and is considered either intrinsically bad (warlocks, fel magic, demons), or is considered at best a grey area. Divine is more of a pure and good form of magic without any side effects.

    There is a huge difference between a mage using a fire spell and a shaman using a fire spell, even if both of the spells are fiery.
    Last edited by Larynx; 2013-05-29 at 08:18 PM.

  8. #8
    In a book I read called 'The Magic of Recluse' they use 2 "types" of magic Order and Chaos (black and white respectively) the intent of the magic is far more important than the source. Strengthening the bonds and increasing the order of a system is "healing". Adding chaos to a system destroys it.

  9. #9
    The Patient Mirdamor's Avatar
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    But... If divine magic is obtained by worshipping gods.

    From where come the god's magic... is it maybe so that the gods are beings who have ascended to godhood from it's power to handle the arcane.

    Every fact is so vague...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirdamor View Post
    But... If divine magic is obtained by worshipping gods.
    From where come the god's magic... is it maybe so that the gods are beings who have ascended to godhood from it's power to handle the arcane.
    Every fact is so vague...
    First of all divine magic doesn't come from worshipping gods. It can, but doesn't always. Shamans get it by cutting deals with elementals, druids get it by attuning themselves with the Emerald dream.

    Second of all, there aren't 'gods' in the Warcraft cosmos- the line is deliberately fuzzy and it's part of the tone of the setting. Sometimes beings are worshipped, such as the naaru, but they're not clearly divine or an echelon above someone like Kil'jaeden, who used to be just a regular eredar like Velen did. What about the Titans, are they gods, or just powerful aliens? What about the 'old gods' what makes them gods, and are they gods if they can be killed by mortal heroes?

    Alot of fantasy settings works as you describe, however; in the D&D forgotten realms campaign setting there are plenty of lesser gods who are former heroes (or villains, I'm looking at you Vecna) who have ascended. If you're wanting this level of specificity, though, I don't think you'll ever get it from Warcraft. It's not that this stuff hasn't been covered yet- it's that not covering it is part of Metzen's style.

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    if you use spirit, your spell type is divine.

    if you cannot use spirit, your spell tupe is arcane.

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