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  1. #1
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    Question [Guardian] Horridon 10N, healers complaining

    Hey guys,

    my guild is no raiding guild, just to mention it, but we try to make some progress nonetheless, whenever we can find enough people to go for it.

    so last sunday we went to ToT and after the raid (we only killed jin'rokh and had some tries on horridon) one of the healers complained about me taking massive damage right after the pull on horridon.
    unfortunately I don't have any logs (as nobody records them due to us not being a raid guild), so I can just provide you with my armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...aiara/advanced
    maybe someone more experienced than me finds some weak point(s) with this, I'll try to save the log this sunday and upload it.

    we also had the discussion if I should spend my rage on frenzied regeneration or savage defense, but I'm not quite sure with that either so I tried to help the healers by using my self heal.

    just to mention it, I know I should get better gear, but I also consider the possibility that besides average gear I might be doing something wrong.

    so I'd be glad for any advice that helps me and my healers

    vai


    ps: the healers were paladin, shaman and druid, the other tank was a dk, no idea if that matters.


    (and sorry if my English is not that perfect, it's not my native language)

    ----

    edit: here's the link to the future logs: http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/269203/
    Last edited by Vaiara; 2013-06-02 at 12:33 PM.

  2. #2
    Savage defence is useless for triple puncture. From what I understand you have to fish for tooth and claw and use it right when he casts triple puncture. The puncture will ofcourse go throu, but next mellee attack will be weak and healers or you yourself (fr if enough rage or renewal) will have time to heal up. What I usually do is take 4 puncture with nothing but above mentioned and 5th and 6th with barkskin,boneshield. If it gets higher don't be afraid to use si or ask for external cds. For the rest of the time I try to use savage defence.
    Btw, on your weapon put windsong and reforge that mastery to crit, not haste to crit.

  3. #3
    Without logs it is almost impossible to see if there is a prob and where it stems from.

    You are almost 2% over hit cap but way under Exp hard cap (4.89%). You should at least run the exp soft cap of 7.5% but shoot for the full 15%. As it stand it looks like you enchanted/gemmed for crit while completely ignoring Exp and that will make your damage more spiky. Capping exp means your attacks will "hit" which gives you smoother rage generation which in turn allows you more active mitigation.

    Have you watched the various fight vids to make sure you are not taking unnecessary damage during the encounter?
    Last edited by Kioga; 2013-05-29 at 02:13 PM.

  4. #4
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    ok, I'll change that enchantment and reforging on my weapon, thanks

    I'll take a look at the videos, right now I can just say I'm not getting hit by the double swipe or sand traps, the damage comes from horridons normal attacks and his pucture.
    also I use healthstones, barkskin and try to keep the boneshield up, but the druid healer told me he used pretty much anything he had to keep me alive, and that was right after the pull and with the first gate open, that's why I thought there must be something wrong with my equip or usage of rage.
    in the next tries I also wanted to try savage defense instead of frenzied reg.

    as soon as I have some records I'll provide you with logs.

    but thanks so far

  5. #5
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    Go to www.worldoflogs.com and download the client and register on the site. Next time you do raid, log it ! It seriously would be so beneficial for you and easy for us to diagnose your problems.

    Could you also list your raid comp and who is tanking what door etc. I can't see how you're having problems just tanking Horridon...you just got to stand there and pop SD on cooldown and avoid the swipes...Is this all from the start of the pull that healers are complaining about your damage intake ? need more info!

  6. #6
    you already said it most of all its you gear. You have 489 equipped that is very low. You will get alot of dmg from puncture not alot of hp or armor, you should spend rage on T&C and SD. But yeah your gear is your main problem.

  7. #7
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    the raid comp was:
    tanks: blood dk, guardian druid
    healers: shaman, paladin, druid
    dps: mage, unholy dk, shadow priest, hunter, enhancer shaman (can't remember the specs of the hunter and the mage)

    I took the boss and the dk took the adds, for the next gate we switched (and didn't get any further as the adds lived too long and killed us).

    I already have the client installed and everything prepared, but I unfortunately can't say why I didn't log the last raid.. my fault -.-

  8. #8
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    If I'm just tanking Horridon use SD on cool down and use a frenzied regen right after you take a triple puncture. On the start of the pull (assuming you start the pull) just tank him in the middle until he does his first swipe then cat form + dash to the first door and reposition Horridon near there. Only reason I'm suggesting this is I'm curious if while you're kiting Horridon near to the first door on the start of the pull that you may also be facing your back to him taking full unavoidable hits a long the way. (theory crafting here, may be wrong lol)

    Is the DK the GM of your guild ? He needs to replace...all his gems...and reforges. Anyways you could have him tank all the doors and or boss (depending on who is stronger doing what) and have the pally spec into clemency and remove the triple puncture stacks off.
    Last edited by rated; 2013-05-29 at 02:33 PM.

  9. #9
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    I run towards horridon and walk backwards (strafing, but facing him) to a position where the dps and healers reach both the gate and me, also I try to position him so the dps face his side so only I have to take care of the double swipe.

  10. #10
    I occasionally heal Horridon 10N for my guild and we run with a Guardian tank. I can say a few things, first, our tanks will go from full health to dead in 2 seconds flat during a tank swap some times. I'm not sure if it's some swing timer thing due to the way they swap (e.g. Taunting Horridon from a distance rather than in melee range so he has to move). All I know is certain scenarios can cause major burst damage from Horridon and healers will need to be prepared to deal with it.

    Without logs though it's hard to say anything beyond that, it may be that you are standing in Double Swipe and taking that damage unnecessarily or any other number of things.

  11. #11
    Couple basic things:
    1) Do some dailies and get the 496-522 gear available.
    2) Run LFR - the 2 set is pretty awsome for Horridon self heals. You get 10 stacks of the Savage Def buff then have a massive self heal after puncture
    3) If the rest of the raid is about the same ilvl as you, that is your problem. My first time healing Horridon (I am Resto /OS guardian) i had 498+ ilvl and still was oom by the end of the fight. If your group is good, the major issue will be gear for everyone. If DPS isn't good enough then adds live longer and stack the magic/poison/disease/curse debuffs. If your heals aren't geared enough they spam heals and run oom cause they also have to dispell a lot, and if tanks are not geared enough they sponge all the healers mana from expensive heals.

    Yes the top guilds might be able to kill bosses with sub par ilvl, but for a casual group with less then perfect coordination, if you want to enjoy the fights and get some progress, then spend just a little time doing some dailies and LFR. You can get 200VP and your 50 lesser coins from 30-45 min worth of playing the new dailies. Then use the coins in LFR if you have to. Aim to use on bosses with the best upgrades and tier.

    TLR: It may not be your, just your gear level.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Feylor View Post
    I'm not sure if it's some swing timer thing due to the way they swap (e.g. Taunting Horridon from a distance rather than in melee range so he has to move)
    Taking a small detour to the druid forum for my alt and noticed this thread. I tank Horridon on my warr and can maybe give you some pointers about the swing timers. The most important thing to note in this regard is that Triple Puncture does not interact with the boss' melee swing timer. This means that you can basically take 2 melee swings and a puncture in very quick succession if none of the melee swings are dodged or parried, in particular when he enrages at the end.

    It is also important to note that the DBM timer only shows when Horridon's cooldown for the triple puncture resets, not when the skill is cast. This means in practice that Horridon will cast the puncture as soon as he is done doing something else (running, charging or channeling double swipe). As a melee swing usually comes at this point as well, they tend to overlap.

    You will get a feel for when he is about to actually cast it when u do the fight enough. As for mitigation, other druid tanks can give you better advice than me

  13. #13
    I'll answer for this in two ways, how you can improve, and what your raid group should do.

    You:
    Cap all tot lfrs every week until you have all the pieces you can use.
    Do dailies every week to get your 3 mogu runes of fate.
    Push for exp hard cap, it makes a big difference at least in my own experience.

    Your guild:
    If the gear level is similar to yours and progress is similar, it would be advisable that they go back and finish up HOF and TOES raids, for gear, and also to build up some co-ordination and practice. Horridon is a big jump compared to Jin'rok. You said yourself that you're wiping on the second door due to adds not going down fast enough, it would be nice to see the damage logs for Jin'rok as well as for Horridon attempts. You may not be a raiding guild, but you're really going into the deep end pushing for current content, when you haven't progressed fully in t14 yet. However, if you are happy to bang your head against the wall that is horridon, then feel free, but you will get bored of it quickly.

  14. #14
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    hi again

    thanks for all the answers.
    I tried to improve my gear a little bit and also got some new pieces, so I'm excited how things will go tomorrow evening.
    also I started logging the fights, so far I only logged some lfr content yesterday and uploaded it to http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/269203/
    the guild mates who were in the raid all have item levels of 500 to 510 for their main spec, so way better than me, but true, there wasn't enough damage to kill the adds fast enough. but we'll see how things go tomorrow

  15. #15
    Well, Guardians are VERY gear dependent due to the 50% bonus to haste and crit while in bear form( and ofc the EH).
    As for my self i have passive 50%~ crit rating and alot more with trinket procs. usually i'm getting rage cap due soul of the forset and consistent procs of T&C. My tanking is MUCH smoother with ToT gear. Wonder what blizzard have to say about it....

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackTheLad View Post
    i'm getting rage cap due soul of the forset
    Why would any Guardian pick soul of the forest over Incarnation ?

  17. #17
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    Get the Hunter to misdirect it to you so you don't have to drag it all the way over there at backpedal speed. That will also let the healers start pre-casting and hotting you so the impact of the first attack will be perceptually lesser. If you have SD glyphed (or even if you don't), you could always just pop it at the pull right before he gets into melee range to make sure everything's smooth until everyone can start their jobs. It will probably be back up for when you actually need it in the fight.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    Why would any Guardian pick soul of the forest over Incarnation ?
    I dont know, Incarnation is like three times as strong as SotF

  19. #19
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    ok, I've uploaded the logs of this evening.
    I tried to keep up Savage Defense and had the hunters misdirecting Horridon to me for the pull.
    the healer who complained last time said it was easier to heal this time, maybe there's still something I can improve?
    the logs can be found here: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/269203/

  20. #20
    What i can see from you jinrokh log you uptime very good on jinrokh your trash could be better but still you SD usage is good.

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