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  1. #21
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    any ideas how I can improve, anyone?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    Why would any Guardian pick soul of the forest over Incarnation ?
    SOTF brings more RPS, rage we can use on SD and FR. Thats why I use SOTF before Incarnation.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    SOTF brings more RPS, rage we can use on SD and FR. Thats why I use SOTF before Incarnation.
    Incarnation gives you more dps, more rps, more utility and a grest survivability SotF can never reach. Since with the crit build you dont have problems keeping up SD and using Fr when needed.

    If you would reforge the right way like expertise (Hit if you get another trinket) you would gain alot of haste, and with that haste will bring you more than SotF does right now.

    Incarnation is almost mandatory for guardians, and CW is the worst of the three tier 2 talents. In no way SotF wins over Incarnation. Especially not in 10m

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    SOTF brings more RPS, rage we can use on SD and FR. Thats why I use SOTF before Incarnation.
    Incarnation >>>>>>>>>>>> SoTF, even for the reasons you listed above. Viromand explained it even further.

  5. #25
    Definitely farm some valor and get more 522 pieces, run lots of ToT LFR to try and get more 502's as well (but don't waste your coins unless you're going to cap out).

    I don't often run raids undergeared like you are, but when I do, I just run max stamina builds because it will do more to smooth out my damage intake, and help my healers keep me alive, than anything else. Getting more Rage stats is great and all, but if you're hoping to gear your way into the content by running it, the bosses are just going to hit you hard until you die. Leave the DPS to the DPS and keep yourself alive above all; our DK had to learn that.

    For more specific advice on Horridon: We also run a DK and Druid tank. I'm the Druid. On Horridon, they have me on the adds until the last phase by using our Paladin's Clemency to HoP the DK. Druids aren't great at gathering loose adds, so we have the raid gather close to me. That way we can cleave them all down, interrupt the casters, and slowly kite away from ground effects. Also, use Incarnation on the fourth door or let the DK handle it with his Gorefiend's; you will get overwhelmed with spawning adds and will need to chain-taunt a bunch of them. I still have to pick up the dinosaur at some point, though; typically I take him at the very end when he does the highest damage. That's when Savage Defense is really strong, because it prevents bigger, and faster, hits and makes that phase much easier to heal. When the DK died on one progression attempt, I tanked him up to 19 stacks of Triple Puncture before I finally ran out of cooldowns and got one-shotted.

  6. #26
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    we tried horridon a few times this evening and got a little further than before.
    maybe someone could look at the logs if there's something to improve?
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-7i8crn36yi9xxbib/

  7. #27
    I looked at a few logs. A few additional comments. Most of your dps have 30%+ of their DPS on Horridon. If you are having issues killing trash in a timely manner then there is no reason for the damage on him to be so high except their are trying to pad the meters. Our first kill we spent almost no time on Horridon until the end. Ranged would DoT while running to next gate. But once trash is down no one except tanks should be hitting the boss unless there is absolutely not trash up.

    You take less overall damage than your dk, but more from triple puncture. I assum this is from him timing his blood shields just for that. If you are gibbed from tripple puncture then maybe use the clemency strat, but if it is healers going oom or the trash getting out of control or being able to stack multiple rounds of the debuffs, then it is more your DPS' issue then yours. Tell them to ignore boss completely if any trash is up and get to the next door fast.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaiara View Post
    we tried horridon a few times this evening and got a little further than before.
    maybe someone could look at the logs if there's something to improve?
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-7i8crn36yi9xxbib/
    I don't think you are using an optimal AoE rotation. If you have more than 2 targets up, you should just cycle Thrash, Swipe, and Mangle. This would definitely improve your Thrash uptime, which is very, very important as a bear. If your target doesn't have Weakened Blows, and your DK doesn't have Blood Plague on it, then its melee attacks are hitting for 10% more. Your DK's disease uptime wasn't very good either, by the way. He needs to learn how to use Outbreak and Pestilence properly and get in the habit of always applying diseases on a new target without even thinking about it.

    Your uptime on Weakened Armor is low, as well. I typically have 90%+ uptime on any given fight just by using my basic rotation. It's easy to get tunnel visioned into DPS when using Incarnation or if you get a lot of Mangle procs in a row, but it's no good if you let important debuffs fall off and no one else can reapply them.

    Don't use Bear Hug in raid environments. It usually doesn't even work, so you can take it off your bar.

    Maul should only be used with a Tooth & Claw proc, and only on bosses. Don't use it on trash unless you absolutely have no other way to dump Rage. Glyph of Maul is incredible for Council if you're tanking Malakk and Sul, as any Druid should, but it's not that effective on Horridon.

  9. #29
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    the adds were one of my major problems, to pick everyone up and maintain threat on every single one (the dk had the same problem).

    we discussed the dps strategy as well because we noticed last sunday that some damage dealers did high damage to horridon, especially their pets. also our holy paladin kept attacking horridon for mana regeneration.

    but I'll look over my AoE rotation again and see that it'll improve, thanks for that advice

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaiara View Post
    the adds were one of my major problems, to pick everyone up and maintain threat on every single one (the dk had the same problem).
    At the start of your adds door, just do your normal tanking thing, pick adds up with taunt and FF, once you get a few adds going, use Incarnation and just rotate thrash and swipe and you shouldn't have any threat issues unless some dps is going balls to the wall on a new add, well that's a coaching issue more than a tank issue. Inc lasts for a long time, and will you give you a pretty amazing threat, after it runs out, using berserking for the 3 mob cleave on mangle is equally as amazing. *you can use them in the other order if you want, but you shouldn't need either for your horridon tanking doors*

    When it comes to adds, you actually don't need to tank them all. The basalisks on first door don't need tanking, they don't hit that hard. Effusions shouldn't last long enough to get tanked and venomp priests can be tanked by the dps assigned to interupt them if your healers are comfortable. Pretty much all of the drakkari door need tanking otherwise you have diseases running rampant and frost orbs in unexpected places. The amani door casters probably don't need to be tanked either.

  11. #31
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boochicken View Post
    snip
    ok, then I'll try that cd combo as well. might be I'm a little bit afraid of blowing cooldowns early as I still remember the huge amounts of damage I took in the phase with the frost orbs >_>
    and I'll ask the healers if it's possible to let a dps tank one of the venom priests. as we have only one melee it may be that's not a good idea for our raid comp as these adds will go rampart as well.. at least it would be less stressful for us tanks
    so thanks again

  12. #32
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    Bit annoying that people are saying your problem is gear, whenever we did a forfeit alt raid (i.e. getting drunk) on alts, most of which had below 480 iLev (I shit you not) and we manged to get horridon down. All you need is a good Strat, execution and DPS that don't pad meters, which is the biggest killer. In normal, with raiders geared 500-510+ iLev... adds should be going down, it's as simple as that. You should do an exercise to test the theory... Tell all of your DPS to simply never ever attack Horridon until all adds of the 4th gate are down. What you're really doing is telling them to only attack the adds and then you'll see if you can actually get them down.

    Ensure you're looking at recount and finding the baddies who are still attacking the boss, tell them off, tell them all again to not hit the boss, rinse and repeat. If you're only getting to the 2nd gate, you really really don't have to worry about 'killing' the boss just yet. Completely ignore Horridon from a DPS perspective and just get all the adds down on every gate. When you've gotten the 4th gate down you probably wont be able to kill Horridon, but you can from that point on just say to your raid... look what we did, we focused adds and we got this far! Now, you can attack the boss, but remember adds! Adds >>> Horridon. Hopefully they'll be smart enough to realise that killing the adds actually is that important and wont DPS the boss unless it's safe to do so (i.e. no/little adds).

    I read through and I'll just mention it again, SD >>> FR in most situations. If you were saving all of your rage to pop an FR right after a TP you've already taken almost as much dmg from the bosses autoattacks as the TP would have done already, meaning you'd be severely straining healers and would probably be low for the TP. Use SD whenever possible (unless you see the boss is away doing a swipe or something, feel free to delay it). You can use FR right after a TP if you're below 50% ofc (or simply have spare rage). Guardian healing is... well lets put it at extremely effective in short bursts. Using FR to 'keep yourself alive by helping healers' will never work. You aren't a prot pally, you will never be competative on healing done. FR is simply for a time where you have high vengeance, spike dmg and low health. FR after a TP or breath on Magaera or something is perfectly fine, using it whenever you feel like will make you dead.


    As for DPS pulling aggro on adds etc, at some point you're going to simply have to, as a raid, completely understand what is happening during the encounter. Exactly(ish) where the adds are spawning, and in what order. That way you can pre-designate priority kill targets. For example, for each gate you will get 3 'big' adds, and plenty of constantly spawning smaller adds. The bigger ones come in this order: 1, comes a few seconds after the first spawn of small adds, will always spawn at the center of the gate (quite a bit away from the gate, but in the middle). This should immediately the add DPS are focusing on, it needs to go down to stop bad shit happening (of most significant notice on the 2nd gate, because if you have too many Venommancers up without a very very good system of interupting you're screwed). The 2nd and 3rd big adds spawn at the same time, usually after 1-2 spawns of smaller adds. They spawn to the sides of the gate, and where they land is 100% predictable, on all gates they spawn in the exact same place relative to the gate.

    What you should aim to do is remember which side the dinomancer will spawn on each gate. Aim to kill the 1st big add before the 2nd+3rd spawn. When you pick up the 2nd and 3rd you should be standing on the spawn point of one of them (so they land on top of you = instant pickup), the one you pick up should be the side where the dinomancer spawns. Use taunt+FF on the other one the spawned and it'll come to you, ensure you get aggro. The DPS should know to DPS the one you picked up first, that way even a passive thrash after your initial taunt+FF should almost ensure aggro. 1st add > Dinomancer to 50% (Dont even bother DPSing it after this point! It's harmless) > 2nd add > 3rd add >> Small adds (for the 3rd gate small adds have much more prio, the DoT is substantial dmg at high stacks, so don't ignore them completely).

    As you look at each gate, the dinomancers spawn: 1st gate, right side. 2nd gate, left side. 3rd gate, right side. 4th gate, left side. Right, left, right left, simple.

    For the 2nd gate, I would HIGHLY recommend that you get Incarnation. It allows you to use taunt every 1.5secs, and makes picking up adds immensely easier to do. One trick we used, on the 2nd gate, was to get a melee with a taunt to grab the 3rd add (spawns on the right side as you look at the gate). That way it wouldn't immediately go for the Horridon tank and you can take it off the DPS at your leisure.

    As others mentioned... Incarnation >>>>>> SotF. It can't be said enough, anyone who thinks otherwise simply doesn't know what they are talking about. I can't think of a single boss fight where SotF > Inc. The raw DPS / RPS / utility of Incarnation cannot be underestimated. Timed with trinket procs+pot+Nature's Vigil you can do downright silly dmg with Incarnation.

  13. #33
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    thanks for the informative post, navoan

    my healers confirmed that it was much easier to keep me alive when I used SD as much as possible (when needed, of course), and I didn't feel that squishy (except for the last gate..). so I used FR only when I feared being trampled to death and my SD was still running

    last night the dps didn't feel like a huge problem as we got so far that jalak came down, but then we were just overrun by adds, unfortunately we only got so far in one try >_>
    so we still need to improve the whole strategy, dps, dispells, interrupts, threat etc.. (we even tried positioning horridon differently as one of the randoms already has horridon on farm and we got some uselful advice from him)

    hopefully we will down it soon

  14. #34
    To be 100% honest, 3 healing Horridon is significantly harder than 2 healing it, in fact most bosses in ToT are like that. I've done it both ways, and 2 healing it makes trash die significantly faster, which means less damage from adds and triple puncture doesn't stack as high on the doors. If one of your healers has a DPS spec you might wanna try 2 healing it instead, the faster the adds die the easier the entire fight gets. We were 3 healing it for a while at first and it was just kind of a disaster, we kept wiping on like the second door and then the fourth door (lusted on third door to make it easy), once we swapped to 2 healing it the second door was literally never a problem, and the fourth door was easier as well. And once all the adds are cleaned up you basically win the fight as long as the two tanks are both still alive.

    It also looks like your group is taking a ton of damage for no real reason on some of the attempts, Blazing Sunlight is doing some high damage and so is the Poison, Sunlight is easy to MD with a Priest in the group, and if you're going to 3 heal it then you have 3 dispels so it should be removed instantly anyway and the poison should be interrupted every single time, the only DPS you have that can't interrupt is the SPriest, so that shouldn't be a problem to get every interrupt. The Plague damage seems high too, even though you have 3 Decurses (Druid healer can get it from Paladin with Symbiosis, only useful Symbiosis for the fight so it should be taken, and that isn't counting the two mages), which means that Plague should always be dispelled rather quickly and really not do any damage at all.

    I think you'd have an easier time if you two heal it and make sure everyone cleanses and interrupts properly. Adding that extra DPS was huge for us, and it really isn't all that hard to two heal at all because there's so much less damage going out since all the adds die faster. Also on the fourth door target down the flame caster people before anything else, they hurt real real bad but are insanely squishy.

    Once all the adds are dead the fight is basically won, so make sure that's a priority above all else, trying to kill Horridon if there's even one or two adds up will make it a lot harder.

  15. #35
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    The best way we found to position Horridon was a little towards (not all the way!) the middle of the room, alongside each gate, point of reference is that Horridon should be far enough away from the gate that the add spawns to the side of Horridon, but not inside his model. This ensures the tank is in range of healers, but far enough away that the boss doesn't interfere with picking up adds etc.

    Whatever works for you is best

    Btw, if you're tanking Horridon for the first gate, have your DK pick up Horridon to start with. Get him to move/position the boss, take the first TP, swipe and the TP directly after the swipe, then you taunt and he goes to pick up adds. This means you have 2 less stacks on you, and his will drop well before the 2nd gate. Just a way to save you a couple of stacks

    Also, feel free to stand in the first Swipe. The dmg is extremely low tbh and you'll get some free vengeance (your DK can probably do the same even though he tanking at that point). I do it on HC with no problems at all. We use a pally on Horridon and I make him simply soak most of the swipes simply to increase his dmg on Horridon. If you have SI on at some point you should definitely take the swipe, essentially free dmg.

  16. #36
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    @ Rucati
    hm ok, I didn't consider only taking two healers. I suppose we have three healers because of the dispels (they dispell as much as they can and as long as they have enough mana to spare) and because of the (at times) huge incoming damage. I remember they mentioned yesterday on teamspeak they kept their dispels on cooldown but people got new stacks as soon as the last ones were taken off.
    but I guess I'll suggest to our raid lead to at least try it with 2 healers if it's not working, then we have to improve in other ways
    thanks for that hint, honestly didn't think of that >_>

    ---
    @ Navoan
    the pull works fine so far with the hunter misdirecting horridon to me, I then pull him to the right side of the door (with the door in my back), wait for the first swipe and then turn him around so he stands parallel to the wall and the peple at the door face his belly. this way the dps and healers can move freely towards the second gate without getting hit by his TP or his swipe.
    also I usually pop at least Barkskin for that time so he doesn't hit me too hard (and of course he never sees my beautiful back :P)
    Last edited by Vaiara; 2013-06-05 at 08:54 AM.

  17. #37
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    Triple Puncture just gives Druids a bad day since you really can't argue with it. (No no puncture don't hit me please! *Stab*)

    There's still the option of pooling Rage to Frenzied Regen in response to Punctures, but personally since you're running 3 healers I'd tell them to suck it up and deal. If you keep good maintenance on SD you're doing about as well as I could ask for from a healer PoV. Lifeblooms and Earthshield should both be on you the moment you pick up Horridon and the paladin tank can easily beacon the OT and just light heal you non stop to keep a rolling mini shield from mastery.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaiara View Post
    hm ok, I didn't consider only taking two healers. I suppose we have three healers because of the dispels (they dispell as much as they can and as long as they have enough mana to spare) and because of the (at times) huge incoming damage. I remember they mentioned yesterday on teamspeak they kept their dispels on cooldown but people got new stacks as soon as the last ones were taken off.
    but I guess I'll suggest to our raid lead to at least try it with 2 healers if it's not working, then we have to improve in other ways
    thanks for that hint, honestly didn't think of that >_>
    It's important for healers not to waste dispels at pointless times. They'll run OOM if they don't. The Blazing Sunlight needs to be dispelled instantly, to be honest I'd probably just have your SPriest use Mass Dispel to remove it because SPriests aren't going to run out of mana anyway and it saves your healers mana. If you're 2 healing it without Mass Dispel that can be a little tricky (Our Disc Priest MD's it, I hardly ever dispel on the first door on my Druid) Sunlight can be kind of a pain though since you can't stop it, but it's also the only real damage on that door. I usually finish that door with 95-100% mana on my RDruid, and the Priest is at like 50% from MD, but then he just heals less on the second door to regen his mana and I heal more on that door, then we both move onto the third door with like 70%.

    As long as your DPS can interrupt the venom priests on the second door there's nothing to dispel, and honestly if there's only 1 stack sometimes I just leave it on, the damage is really minimal. Or I just dispel it from people with the bleed dot, since both debuffs at once can start doing some damage. But if it's only at 1 stack and there's no bleed dot I usually just leave it, the damage is minimal at best.

    On the third door it's important not to dispel too early, if someone only has 1-3 stacks it's not doing much damage, and once you dispel them it'll instantly go back to 1 stack anyway 90% of the time (at least in my experience, in the heat of the fight it's hard to tell which mobs are attacking who and which ones are dying fast) so it's not worth dispelling until it's at about 4 stacks. But if you run with mages it doesn't really matter since they can dispel too, but don't rely on it too much because they still need to do damage. But still, it's worth remembering.

    Healing this fight is mainly about not wasting mana on nothing, spending 8k mana to dispel 1 stack of the poison DoT is a waste of mana, and if you dispel 10 people with 1 stack that's a waste of 80k mana. Dispelling too early on the third door is a waste of mana because if you dispel 1 stack by the time your dispel is off CD that same person has 3 stacks and you need to dispel them again anyway, I probably wouldn't let it stack past 5 though on the third door if you can help it, and with 2-3 dispels that shouldn't be a problem.

    I usually end the fight with 10-15% mana on my RDruid and all my mana CDs (Innervate, and the mana regen trinket) have about 30 seconds left on their CD, so I'd be fine if the fight lasted another 1-2 minutes probably. To be honest I didn't think swapping to 2 heals would work at all because of all the damage, but there's actually a lot less damage using 2 healers, so it's a lot more manageable.

  19. #39
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    sounds interesting, and honestly I have no idea at what point the healers dispell, if instantly or just when x stacks are applied..
    guess I'll just show this thread to my raid lead and see what he's willing to try xD

    but again thanks for all the advice

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Incarnation gives you more dps, more rps, more utility and a grest survivability SotF can never reach. Since with the crit build you dont have problems keeping up SD and using Fr when needed.

    If you would reforge the right way like expertise (Hit if you get another trinket) you would gain alot of haste, and with that haste will bring you more than SotF does right now.

    Incarnation is almost mandatory for guardians, and CW is the worst of the three tier 2 talents. In no way SotF wins over Incarnation. Especially not in 10m
    Its interesting, I have played around with Incarnation and I dont see that DPS-increase people talk about. Even less so when its on a fairly long cooldown, SOTF has been working well for me. And CW is underestimated IMO, with its short cooldown and paired with the Frenzied Regeneration-buff it has proven very useful for me.

    Different people different playstyles, what works for you might not be what someone else prefers and vice versa.
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