[Guardian] Horridon 10N, healers complaining

[Viromand]

have all your dps stand on one side so the adds run through you when a dps pulls aggro on newly spawned

[Deleted]

just watched a few videos of the fight and found this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=Jhoe1t1MpPE#!
these people are standing way more in the center of the area; we always try to keep horridon close to the doors (like halfway between the center and the door).
would it be helpful if we gathered more in the center, or would the adds do too much damage on their way towards us?
any ideas?

[Deleted]

Make sure your guild does positions properly at doors. Ranged and healers should literally hug tanks/melees at start of the each doors. Seriusly, no healer or ranged should be outside melee range of your add tank, yell them if they are away because they cause random fixate mobs to run all around which is big raid dps loss and makes tanking hard.
Then when big adds start to cast poisons/frost traps/whatever, move slowly towards next door, ranged and healers can go bit ahead towards next door but no more than like 10-20 yards away from tanks/melee. That way all adds (also random fixate ones) stay nicely in cleave range and your dps, especially melees can cleave effectively. Boss is kept moving side of group so when boss does charge, charge target just runs 20 yards sideways forward of boss. This is especially for heroic horridon but surely helps normal too. When doing like this all adds come to you as tank automatically, all "small" mobs in doors 1-3 are melee so they come to you anyway even if you leave door and are halfway towards next door. Good time to start moving towards next door is around time pair of big adds spawn, interrupt/taunt big add pair and start moving slowly as needed by bad stuff on ground.

[Deleted]

we tried that yesterday, to move horridon (with his belly facing the group) in a small circle around (or from door to door), and the healers and dps stayed together, but then the sand traps and poison effects covered most of the ground and hindered us from moving freely..
as I said, the add management seemed to be one of the biggest problems, with adds running around and hitting whoever is closest.. we're still trying to find the best way to stand/move..

[Tarazet]

thanks for the informative post, navoan

my healers confirmed that it was much easier to keep me alive when I used SD as much as possible (when needed, of course), and I didn't feel that squishy (except for the last gate..). so I used FR only when I feared being trampled to death and my SD was still running

last night the dps didn't feel like a huge problem as we got so far that jalak came down, but then we were just overrun by adds, unfortunately we only got so far in one try >_>
so we still need to improve the whole strategy, dps, dispells, interrupts, threat etc.. (we even tried positioning horridon differently as one of the randoms already has horridon on farm and we got some uselful advice from him)

hopefully we will down it soon

You got Jalak down and still had adds up? Once Horridon is down to 40%, you should absolutely stop DPS on him until the last door is finished. Jalak comes out when Horridon is at 30%. If you get the fourth door down before you burn Horridon, it is so much easier. It's your option whether you even want to kill Jalak at that point. The AoE hurts, but Rampage really hurts so it's pretty much six of one, half dozen of the other.

[rated]

Its interesting, I have played around with Incarnation and I dont see that DPS-increase people talk about. Even less so when its on a fairly long cooldown, SOTF has been working well for me. And CW is underestimated IMO, with its short cooldown and paired with the Frenzied Regeneration-buff it has proven very useful for me.

Different people different playstyles, what works for you might not be what someone else prefers and vice versa.

How can you not see the DPS increase ? It's 30 seconds of non stop mangling. It will provide more rage than that extra 1 rage you get with SoTF. This is not a case of "different play style blah blah blah etc" though. Incarnation is better than SoTF and that is fact.

[Tarazet]

How can you not see the DPS increase ? It's 30 seconds of non stop mangling. It will provide more rage than that extra 1 rage you get with SoTF. This is not a case of "different play style blah blah blah etc" though. Incarnation is better than SoTF and that is fact.

It's not quite nonstop Mangling, because with Incarnation active, it's still a DPS loss to let Thrash or Weakened Armor drop. SotF does indeed do nothing for damage output, but the talents provide about the same average RPS gain; it's just a question of whether you want it in the form of a cooldown that has 1/6 max uptime, or consistently improved generation throughout the entire encounter. Given that very few encounters in ToT have 100% tanking uptime, Incarnation is going to be the standard pick, but on one-tank encounters like the Wind Lord, there is good reason to prefer SotF.

[Arielle]

It's not quite nonstop Mangling, because with Incarnation active, it's still a DPS loss to let Thrash or Weakened Armor drop. SotF does indeed do nothing for damage output, but the talents provide about the same average RPS gain;

No they don't, at least not past 50% crit (which is really easy to get). Math Time!

# of Mangles in a 3 minute period (approx assuming hit&exp cap) = 0.2175*180 = 39
39 * 3 = 117 Rage for SotF.

# of Mangles in a normal 30 second period (approx assuming hit&exp cap) = 6.5
# of GCDs in 30 seconds = 20
- 1 for Thrash = 19
- 1 for FFF (if required) = 18
- 1 for Lacerate = 17
17-6.5 = 10.5 extra Mangles
10.5*5 = 52.5
10.5*.5*15 = 78.75
52.5+78.75 = 131.25

And the gap only gets bigger as you get more Crit. SotF is terrible for anything beyond a starter talent.

[Tarazet]

I'd call ~15 Rage difference over 3 minutes within the margin of error/RNG, and not by itself worthwhile to choose one talent over the other. It's not even one extra Maul over the course of that period. The choice is more about what kind of gain you're looking for. The main thing Incarnation brings is the flexibility to bring the Rage when you want it, or chain taunt adds if the encounter calls for it (Horridon).

[Arielle]

I'd call ~15 Rage difference over 3 minutes within the margin of error/RNG, and not by itself worthwhile to choose one talent over the other. It's not even one extra Maul over the course of that period. The choice is more about what kind of gain you're looking for. The main thing Incarnation brings is the flexibility to bring the Rage when you want it, or chain taunt adds if the encounter calls for it (Horridon).

That's also before considering the huge DPS gain, especially when combined with NV/Pot or say a Feed Pool/Jin'Rokh puddle.

SotF is pretty bad when compared to Incarnation.

[Deleted]

It has worked well for me until I stopped raiding, guild disbanded because gm and his gf stopped playing and officers x-ferred the guild.
But, been reading what you've said and it makes sense, if/when I take up raiding again I will use Incarnation as a choice instead.

[Deleted]

Its interesting, I have played around with Incarnation and I dont see that DPS-increase people talk about. Even less so when its on a fairly long cooldown, SOTF has been working well for me. And CW is underestimated IMO, with its short cooldown and paired with the Frenzied Regeneration-buff it has proven very useful for me.

Different people different playstyles, what works for you might not be what someone else prefers and vice versa.

Also for cenarion ward... it's not very good. What kills a tank (a guardian moreso) is burst damage. Ask your healers but noone gives a single shit about your average damage taken/average healing done. Healing a tank that is taking smooth damage is in the worst cases mana neutral. Cenarion Ward does a great chunck of healing, but it is a HoT. It will not save you from burst deaths and it will not save the healers mana - there is no reason to take it. Rather take a on activate heal which you can count on RIGHT NOW. Cenarion Ward is however good as a soloing cooldown (or without healer) as you will not die to burst damage and it won't be overheal.

[Viromand]

Also for cenarion ward... it's not very good. What kills a tank (a guardian moreso) is burst damage. Ask your healers but noone gives a single shit about your average damage taken/average healing done. Healing a tank that is taking smooth damage is in the worst cases mana neutral. Cenarion Ward does a great chunck of healing, but it is a HoT. It will not save you from burst deaths and it will not save the healers mana - there is no reason to take it. Rather take a on activate heal which you can count on RIGHT NOW. Cenarion Ward is however good as a soloing cooldown (or without healer) as you will not die to burst damage and it won't be overheal.

Yeah all that is true but you didnt even consider that we have FR which is almost the same. You already have a heal that heals you when you take dmg, especially with the 2piece. So why would you need another heal that heals you when you take dmg. CW would be a good talent for other tanks that take more dmg over time but druids take dmg or they dodge. And if they take dmg you just use FR.