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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    You should be saying that. I am pretty sure the only time our EF healed for 140k/tic is on Tsulong(more on that fight likely).

    Shamans 1 button healing cooldowns were actually not buffed.
    Yeh, good point. They still have a one button CD...and to be honest - I'd be fine with them getting a buff over the other healers. They need it!

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Please explain to me why a paladin should have less output than a monk? Please seriously explain why our heals+absorbs should end up doing less healing than yours in raid environments. Because we have BoP and sac, salv and AM? So does every other paladin. Have them do it and bring healers that heal more. Need more absorbs. Bring in disc priests. Who can bring some dps at the same time.
    It would look like this then, paladin/d priest;

    [-Heals-][-Absorbs-][-RCD-]

    any other healer;

    [- Heals [-RCD-] -]

    Simply put paladins can't be the best at healing output and still have DA. As we've seen the past tier, when paladins and discipline get both, the only two classes that got brought to progress were holy paladins and discipline priests with a single support healer. I understand your argument and spec exclusivity is somewhat of a problem but as is you can't have both slices of the cake.

    As for discipline priests... for some reason they still refuse to decimate atonement until it's in the realm of even beginning to be okay. I don't see how it isn't agreeable for a holy specific buff to aura mastery in the realm of 5%, which also extends to physical damage which would basically make it a raid wide barrier. Essentially the trade off being between the two specs being a meagre amount of dps for a 40 yard radius barrier.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 03:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm a pretty competent healer (play all 4 classes in fact, and pretty well).
    My point is: The Druid/Priest/Shammy and especially Monk 'one button' throughput CD's got buffed a little too much.
    It's disappointing to see us work so hard with our lousy toolkit to watch another class YOLO by pressing one button which then becomes their #2 or #3 hps ability.
    Why should it matter, if you could see the gain you get from pressing DA would you be happy?
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  3. #23
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Revival and Devo have the exact same cooldown. Devo mitigates 20% of magical damage while Revival, Tranq, and Hymn can heal that damage and more. And the healing cooldowns work on all types of damage, not just Magic. Try using another excuse for why you should be doing more healing. You should not be that far ahead at all, especially when Blizzard is insinuating they are going to nerf us more. They are basically making it so no raid team in their right mind will have more than 1 holy paladin and if all you need is Devo, you don't need one at all.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Revival and Devo have the exact same cooldown. Devo mitigates 20% of magical damage while Revival, Tranq, and Hymn can heal that damage and more. And the healing cooldowns work on all types of damage, not just Magic. Try using another excuse for why you should be doing more healing. You should not be that far ahead at all, especially when Blizzard is insinuating they are going to nerf us more.
    Which is why I'm arguing that devotion aura should be looked at instead of buffing your already powerful sustained healing.
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  5. #25
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Which is why I'm arguing that devotion aura should be looked at instead of buffing your already powerful sustained healing.
    Our sustained healing isn't that much more powerful than other healers. If you removed the absorb healers I'm pretty confident that monks, druids, holy priests could definitely heal through sustained damage and be happy because they aren't getting snipped by absorbs. The nerfs made it so we don't get anywhere near the amount of EFs we were able to, so sustained for other classes looks better now as well.

    Our sustained healing is also still being looked at for nerfing.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-30 at 02:47 PM.

  6. #26
    'already powerful sustained healing'...coming from a monk.
    that's funny

  7. #27
    One thing to keep in mind: DR effects are far better when dealing with huge spike hits. Think back to Nefarion with Electrocutes. PW Barrier, Spirit Link Totem or today's Devotion Aura - since the old AM didn't work on Nature, would be way better during progression to help the raid survive that huge hit. Whereas Tranq and Hymn healing wouldn't help if people didn't survive the blast in the first place.

    Granted, this tier there seem to be fewer of those single large raidwide hits...but who knows whats coming down the road. DA may not be the greatest, but it has its uses and advantages, being instant is nothing to scoff at: its a pain to get interrupted while channeling tranq/hymn, nor is being location independent, unlike barrier/SLT. You have 2 strong output CD's to help out as well.

    Maybe DA could be tweaked to also place a mastery bubble on each target in range worth X% of their health.

  8. #28
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    You have 2 strong output CD's to help out as well.

    I love how people always want to bring up our throughput cooldowns as if other healing classes do not have similar throughput cooldowns.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I love how people always want to bring up our throughput cooldowns as if other healing classes do not have similar throughput cooldowns.
    Cause not all of them do, certainly not baseline. Talented some specs are closer to having parity CD wise.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-05-30 at 04:13 PM.

  10. #30
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Most do and the ones who don't do not need them and/or have other burst healing cooldowns to make up for it.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-30 at 04:25 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    One thing to keep in mind: DR effects are far better when dealing with huge spike hits. Think back to Nefarion with Electrocutes. PW Barrier, Spirit Link Totem or today's Devotion Aura - since the old AM didn't work on Nature, would be way better during progression to help the raid survive that huge hit. Whereas Tranq and Hymn healing wouldn't help if people didn't survive the blast in the first place.

    Granted, this tier there seem to be fewer of those single large raidwide hits...but who knows whats coming down the road. DA may not be the greatest, but it has its uses and advantages, being instant is nothing to scoff at: its a pain to get interrupted while channeling tranq/hymn, nor is being location independent, unlike barrier/SLT. You have 2 strong output CD's to help out as well.

    Maybe DA could be tweaked to also place a mastery bubble on each target in range worth X% of their health.
    1)Most of players will never face an encounter that has an ability that hits for a high % of one's health. Maybe ~300 players had to face a 475k Dark Animus Interrupting Jolt ability this tier and the ability got hotfixed to 400k even before the boss got killed

    2)Even in those cases a 1 minute Spirit Shell is much stronger in 10 man.


    As for the monk above. You heavily overestimate Paladin utility. If anything Druids have much higher utility(in the form of Rebirth,Ironbark,Stampeding Roar,Mushrooms and Symbiosis). And tbh neither matters in high end raiding unless it provides a quick counter to a boss mechanic. What matters is output.
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-05-30 at 04:48 PM.

  12. #32
    ^ That's Method's holy paladin folks...g'head and argue...

  13. #33
    I understand why they made the change - in 10 man they feel like a raid cooldown when in 25 man they didn't. In theory they've just scaled them up proportionally but they haven't really thought about the HPS ramifications in 25 man. One button press a few times a fight goes from 10 million healing to 22 million - 12 million healing for free. Much as people say they don't care about hps it is a benchmark used.

    It's the price we pay for being mitigation healers. Disc and Paladins don't get a healing raid cooldown but we should be the better healers outside of that cooldown.

    That said, I raid 10s mainly. Those cooldowns have always been as proportionally strong as they are now, it just didn't equate to so much hps.

  14. #34
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    I think the issue here is that most paladins got accustomed to the 4 sec HS CD. Play with something long enough and you get into a rhythm with it. I personally don't have an issue with the "changes", I've just re statted to make up for it and have gotten back to cheesing HP generation.

  15. #35
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Simply put paladins can't be the best at healing output and still have DA.
    And, this might be true if DA were the only mitigation cooldown in the existence of the game and the universe of Azeroth.

    But you're conveniently (yet again) ignoring the mitigation abilities others have. Yes, some of these abilities other healers have do have "limitations" - as I'm sure you'll point out - but DA is also limited by range (a lot less, by the way, than Revival), and the fact that it's only magical damage.

  16. #36
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdell View Post
    I think the issue here is that most paladins got accustomed to the 4 sec HS CD. Play with something long enough and you get into a rhythm with it. I personally don't have an issue with the "changes", I've just re statted to make up for it and have gotten back to cheesing HP generation.
    Nope that isn't the issue at all. Our nerfs+the buffs other classes got made our numbers are consistently lower than the numbers other healers put out. No amount of "cheesing" HP generation is going to help you get it up to what it was and overtake the numbers of equally geared and skilled monks, priests, and in many cases druids. If you are outhealing your fellow healers of those classes, there is probably something in their play allowing you to do so.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Our nerfs+the buffs other classes got made our numbers are consistently lower than the numbers other healers put out.
    The problem with solely looking at numbers, is that Devotion Aura, Hand of Sacrifice, Barrier, Pain Suppression, Ironbark, and SLT 10% DR, don't show up on meters/logs. So you aren't getting a complete picture of true output (which means disc is even more OP than it appears with numbers alone :P )

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    The problem with solely looking at numbers, is that Devotion Aura, Hand of Sacrifice, Barrier, Pain Suppression, Ironbark, and SLT 10% DR, don't show up on meters/logs. So you aren't getting a complete picture of true output (which means disc is even more OP than it appears with numbers alone :P )
    There are a lot of things that don't show up on meters. I don't see how your argument is valid concerning the topic of throughput raid cool downs.
    I'm not talking about a healer's toolkit...i'm talking about a raid wide cool down...and how ours is weak in terms of other classes 'one button HPS CD'.
    Don't get me wrong - DA (devo aura) is strong (though it can be useless on some melee only fights)...but a tank or dps can use that ability to the same affect that a holy paly can. I don't know...5.3 really has me not liking my HPaly, and the way GC is talking, I'm dreading 5.4.

    It's also very disappointing to work your butt off only then to see a druid/monk/priest or even a shammy use their raid CD and pass you in HPS. It's happening way too much.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    It's also very disappointing to work your butt off only then to see a druid/monk/priest or even a shammy use their raid CD and pass you in HPS. It's happening way too much.
    You say that now, because you spent the most of MOP up at in top 3 along with disc and monks :P - welcome to the middle. Christ be happy you aren't a shaman if all you care about is HPS - shamans have been scraping the bottom for quite some time.

    And like i said above, if you are only looking at HPS - you aren't getting the full picture - cause not everything shows up as HPS. DA during a latter head (4-6) Megaera rampage can easily prevent 3 million or more damage to a 25 man raid. Is that as much as a tranq/hymn? should it be? thats up to blizz - im sure CD's are not balanced in isolation but rather as part of an entire class's kit.

    I'm not saying pallie's in general couldn't use some tweaking, and DA in particular being buffed somewhat, but to hear you all B&M about no longer topping the HPS meter.../tiny violin. A legitimate concern about not being able to perform is one thing, but pallies are not at that point yet. Not being able to meter whore at the top is not a valid concern.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-05-30 at 06:52 PM.

  20. #40
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    Don't get me wrong - DA (devo aura) is strong (though it can be useless on some melee only fights)...but a tank or dps can use that ability to the same affect that a holy paly can. I don't know...5.3 really has me not liking my HPaly, and the way GC is talking, I'm dreading 5.4.
    I don't think we're overly bad (though the numbers are very worrying) yet, but definitely not what can be called "good"

    And like you said, there's nothing better Blizzard likes to do than nerf a spec down, then give it the final boot into the ground. I'm really, really dreading 5.4 as well.

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