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  1. #41
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Nope that isn't the issue at all. Our nerfs+the buffs other classes got made our numbers are consistently lower than the numbers other healers put out. No amount of "cheesing" HP generation is going to help you get it up to what it was and overtake the numbers of equally geared and skilled monks, priests, and in many cases druids. If you are outhealing your fellow healers of those classes, there is probably something in their play allowing you to do so.
    Thing is, I don't think it's nearly as awful as you make it out to be. I don't have the absolute best healers in my core (myself included), but I haven't seen much of a change in the scale of numbers with the changes to myself and the other classes I heal with.

    Now, I knew the 4pc change was going to push us to T15, so I jumped on early to the change and got re used to a 6 sec CD on HS. As far as mastery goes, I'm back at the pre nerf level between item upgrades and dropping spirit to roughly 11k. I had 15k spirit. I was ending fights at 50% mana. I now end fights at sub 25%.

    In all honesty, it's not as bad as everyone seems to make it out to be. You just have to adjust your style. (Note: I do 25s, so I'm not speaking for 10 mans and have no idea how this has affected them. I'm assuming that most of the negative feedback is from 10 mans, since it is the majority of raiding in the community these days.)

  2. #42
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    You say that now, because you spent the rest of MOP up at the top with disc :P - welcome to the middle. Christ be happy you aren't a shaman if all you care about is HPS - shamans have been scraping the bottom for quite some time.

    And like i said above, if you are only looking at HPS - you aren't getting the full picture - cause not everything shows up as HPS. DA during a latter head (4-6) Megaera rampage can easily prevent 3 million or more damage to a 25 man raid. Is that as much as a tranq/hymn? should it be? thats up to blizz - im sure CD's are not balanced in isolation but rather as part of an entire class's kit.

    I'm not saying pallie's in general couldn't use some tweaking, and DA in particular being buffed somewhat, but to hear you all B&M about no longer topping the HPS meter.../tiny violin. A legitimate concern about not being able to perform is one thing, but pallies are not at that point yet. Not being able to meter whore at the top is not a valid concern.
    What? Pallies spent the rest of MoP at the top?

    5.0-Monks
    5.1-Disc priests
    5.2-Disc priest, pallies and monks.

    It isn't just about "Topping meters", it is about being competitive and viable. And here is the difference between a paladin and a shaman. Shaman bring big raid cooldowns that no other class can match. They will nearly always have a spot simply for mana tide, spirit link, etc. Yea they need help in spread healing, no one is denying that. And they have not spent the whole expansion at the bottom, priests and druids were below them when the expansion first came out and just druids later.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-30 at 06:51 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    You say that now, because you spent the rest of MOP up at the top with disc :P - welcome to the middle. Christ be happy you aren't a shaman if all you care about is HPS - shamans have been scraping the bottom for quite some time.

    And like i said above, if you are only looking at HPS - you aren't getting the full picture - cause not everything shows up as HPS. DA during a latter head (4-6) Megaera rampage can easily prevent 3 million or more damage to a 25 man raid. Is that as much as a tranq/hymn? should it be? thats up to blizz - im sure CD's are not balanced in isolation but rather as part of an entire class's kit.

    I'm not saying pallie's in general couldn't use some tweaking, and DA in particular being buffed somewhat, but to hear you all B&M about no longer topping the HPS meter.../tiny violin. A legitimate concern about not being able to perform is one thing, but pallies are not at that point yet. Not being able to meter whore at the top is not a valid concern.
    I can care less about being middle of the road. My argument here is the throughput CD being too strong for other healers. Either nerf them down or give us something similar. When I say that I work my butt off to get decent HPS then get passed by a class using a HPS CD...my gripe is that it's a one button YOLO CD - and when complete, said healer gets to go about lulzing and doing their thing. That really grinds my gears (http://imgur.com/gallery/9Kwr6)

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    What? Pallies spent the rest of MoP at the top?

    5.0-Monks
    5.1-Disc priests
    5.2-Disc priest, pallies and monks.
    Sorry, i was thinking 10 man where they were top 2-3 with disc/monk for most of the expansion. edited original to clarify

  5. #45
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdell View Post
    Thing is, I don't think it's nearly as awful as you make it out to be. I don't have the absolute best healers in my core (myself included), but I haven't seen much of a change in the scale of numbers with the changes to myself and the other classes I heal with.

    Now, I knew the 4pc change was going to push us to T15, so I jumped on early to the change and got re used to a 6 sec CD on HS. As far as mastery goes, I'm back at the pre nerf level between item upgrades and dropping spirit to roughly 11k. I had 15k spirit. I was ending fights at 50% mana. I now end fights at sub 25%

    In all honesty, it's not as bad as everyone seems to make it out to be. You just have to adjust your style. (Note: I do 25s, so I'm not speaking for 10 mans and have no idea how this has affected them. I'm assuming that most of the negative feedback is from 10 mans, since it is the majority of raiding in the community these days.)
    No I do 25m, and most of the buffs to other classes were in 25m so the big fluctuation in numbers are in 25m.

  6. #46
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    No I do 25m, and most of the buffs to other classes were in 25m so the big fluctuation in numbers are in 25m.
    Maybe I'm just in a good situation. I just don't see the drop off on my end with a couple minor tweaks. Even with their healing CDs, most fights I have no change from previous numbers.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    When I say that I work my butt off to get decent HPS then get passed by a class using a HPS CD...my gripe is that it's a one button YOLO CD - and when complete, said healer gets to go about lulzing and doing their thing.
    And how high is your HPS getting when you pop DA, and then go about lulzing and doing your thing?...oh...right..it doesn't show up. So its not that you can't down the bosses or something mechanically deficient with your kit, its your CD doesn't show up as numbers on a meter and you want to top that meter, ok. So by your logic, the non-meter visible DR doesn't matter. Just trying to clarify.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-05-30 at 07:05 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdell View Post
    Maybe I'm just in a good situation. I just don't see the drop off on my end with a couple minor tweaks. Even with their healing CDs, most fights I have no change from previous numbers.
    I've noticed a slight drop in my #'s. I don't know - I'm only 11/13 Heroic (raid 25m).
    The change I dislike the most is the change to our healing style while dropping T14 4 piece.
    going to a full mastery build makes our holy power generation sooo slow, so we have to improvise and melee and CS (at least I do), on the fights that permit that.
    I am not happy with our current state or our current toolkit.

    That being said - The drop in my #'s might be related to the other healers increasing their throughput.
    I know I keep linking this:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111
    And..
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111

    There's definitely a drop off.

  9. #49
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Are we now arguing for DA to be included as "healing done"?

    Next on the list, we'll see demand for HoS and HoP to be included as well.....

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    And how high is your HPS getting when you pop DA, and then go about lulzing and doing your thing?...oh...right..it doesn't show up. So its not that you can't down the bosses or something mechanically deficient with your kit, its your CD doesn't show up as numbers on a meter and you want to top that meter, ok. So by your logic, the non-meter visible DR doesn't matter. Just trying to clarify.
    I think you're arguing for arguments sake because what your'e saying makes no sense.
    You can clearly see when we pop our CDs on World of Logs, and you can see the output it gives us. Most other classes have CDs as well. I'm not talking about our utility...not sure why this doesn't get through to you.
    I'm referring to the OPness of the currently healer's raid CDs compared to ours.

  11. #51
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    The change I dislike the most is the change to our healing style while dropping T14 4 piece.
    And this is the issue I think many H Paladins are facing.

    Sorry, but we all knew this nerf was coming. I don't like to point fingers and tell people what they should or shouldn't have done, but changing out of T14 beforehand could have solved most of these compliants.

    It's a change. Like any change, it takes getting used to. It also takes airing frustrations of the change and moving past. It's not going back, deal with it or re roll.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    You can clearly see when we pop our CDs on World of Logs, and you can see the output it gives us. Most other classes have CDs as well. I'm not talking about our utility...not sure why this doesn't get through to you. I'm referring to the OPness of the currently healer's raid CDs compared to ours.
    As you seem to not grasp that ignoring the healing Devotion Aura does by preventing damage, which doesn't show up on World of Logs - that you aren't making a fair comparison, since it is a raid CD afterall.

    How can you possible say, Tranq, Hymn and Revival are doing too much - using World of Logs as evidence, when the other side cannot look to see how much Devotion Aura is doing to get an accurate picture for the comparison.

    Its like saying Pallies have 15 dollars in their hand, and X hidden dollars in their pocket. Druids/Monks/Priests have 20 dollars in their hands, clearly they have more money than us, NERF! - its just not a fair and complete comparison because you don't have all the data.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-05-30 at 07:18 PM.

  13. #53
    First off, not all fights have a use for DA.
    2ndly, any paly can cast it. There's no difference in the magic mitigation if a healer/tank/dps casts it.
    3rd: I originally stated that DA is a good cooldown, my grief is that we don't have a HPS CD.
    My overall grief is how strong the HPS is on the new healer CDs.

    Take this challenge mode example:
    The tank pulls a group accidentally and the party takes a LOT of damage.
    What does a paladin do? Pop a cool down and heal normally, and pray that we can top off the group.
    What does a Druid/Priest/Monk/Shammy do? Pop a CD and KNOW that the group will be top'd. big difference.

  14. #54
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    Take this challenge mode example:
    The tank pulls a group accidentally and the party takes a LOT of damage.
    What does a paladin do? Pop a cool down and heal normally, and pray that we can top off the group.
    What does a Druid/Priest/Monk/Shammy do? Pop a CD and KNOW that the group will be top'd. big difference.
    At the same time, a Paladin can pop a personal CD multiple times in the span of a healing CD (3 mins) and cover more of those "oh Sh*t" moments. Other healing specs do not have that luxury.

    All relative, I'll take 3-4 personal CDs over 1 3 min healing CD. Personally, I feel there is much more potential there.

  15. #55
    I can't really comment on their usefulness in 25H but on 10H, a holy paladin is practically required because of their Hand spells and excellent tank heals. Easily the best after discipline priests for 10 man.

  16. #56
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    I can't really comment on their usefulness in 25H but on 10H, a holy paladin is practically required because of their Hand spells and excellent tank heals. Easily the best after discipline priests for 10 man.

    Not really going to argue the viability of paladins for 10m but the hand spells can be brought by any paladin and paladins are not the only class that can tank heal well. And considering the biggest use of hand spells is to use Hand of Protection to remove tank debuffs, you are better off just having a prot paladin.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-30 at 07:28 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Not really going to argue the viability of paladins for 10m but the hand spells can be brought by any paladin and paladins are not the only class that can tank heal well.
    True, the hands aren't actually even that imporant. They just popped into my head straight off the bat.

    The tank healing is just on another level with Holy Paladins. Other classes can do it as well, but not nearly as well. For 25man it's a different story when you have dedicated tank healers and even multiple players for that. But again, this is the 10man perspective.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    First off, not all fights have a use for DA.
    Then you aren't trying hard enough - every fight this tier can make use of DA
    Ji Kun is prolly where it is weakest (puddles is the only magic damage i can think of on that fight)
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    2ndly, any paly can cast it. There's no difference in the magic mitigation if a healer/tank/dps casts it.
    Irrelevant, the fact that prot and ret have it does not mean Holy doesn't need to consider it. Its a tool in their Kit
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    3rd: I originally stated that DA is a good cooldown, my grief is that we don't have a HPS CD.
    Damage prevented is as good, if not better than HPS - only difference here is you can't see DA on the meter.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    My overall grief is how strong the HPS is on the new healer CDs.
    So their CD's scaling from 10-25, like DA already did (along with barrier and SLT) is a problem why? IF DA more than doubles in strength going from 10 to 25, why shouldn't Hymn/Tranq? Them healing for more hurts you how?...are you being threatened of being sat because of it? Then u have a shitty RL who doesn't understand healing if all he is going by is the meter.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    Take this challenge mode example: The tank pulls a group accidentally and the party takes a LOT of damage.
    What does a paladin do? Pop a cool down and heal normally, and pray that we can top off the group.
    What does a Druid/Priest/Monk/Shammy do? Pop a CD and KNOW that the group will be top'd. big difference.
    Too many variables.
    What kind of damage is the group taking? If its magical DA works fine. PoP DA, AW, DF, Guardian if you have too - lots of tools
    Are there any knockbacks or silences or interrupts or fears/cc's from the mobs? That will screw over an active Tranq of Hymn, not so for an active DA .

    You cant drop a ridiculous hypothetical like that and make a statement like, oh they just pop tranq/hymn/revival and the group will be fine. Ridiculous; and it has nothing to do with your previous statement: your beef is the CD's are too much HPS in raids as per WoL.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-05-30 at 07:44 PM.

  19. #59
    So their CD's scaling from 10-25, like DA already did (along with barrier and SLT) is a problem why? IF DA more than doubles in strength going from 10 to 25, why shouldn't Hymn/Tranq?
    Because the amount of healers doubles in 25 man while the amount of boss abilities don't.

    Then you aren't trying hard enough - every fight this tier can make use of DA
    Oh please, if you wouldn't see the buff up and no animation, you wouldn't even be able to tell when a paladin used DA.

  20. #60
    Okay, I regret bringing up an example because I knew it would derail talking about our raid CD.
    That being said, sure let's talk about our hand spells. Between the other clasess, most of our hands can be replaced by another class. If they can't - then a dps or tank brings the same utility.

    Hand of Salv - useful if a dps over-threat (mess up) or a tank CC occurs
    Priests can life grip away, but other than that, it's a pretty distinct ability.
    Hand of Sacrifice - useful - but potentially dangerous if a bubble isn't used. Has to be timed or used very carefully - not to kill the healer.
    Priests have Guardian Spirit or Pain Sup
    Druids have Ironbark (or Cenarion's Ward if spec'd into it)
    Shammies have nothing (well, they could spirit link, but meh)
    Monks have Zen Med or Life Cocoon.
    Hand of Freedom - other classes bring this but can be useful.
    Shammies can freedom a raid if talented with Windwalk Totem
    Monks have Tiger's Lust
    Priests have nothing (unless 4 piece pvp)
    Hand of Protection - we use this a lot when one tanking or to remove debuffs off the tank.. Great utility.

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