Holy Paly - Raid cooldown status

[Deleted]

The combination of high movement fights in ToT and dropping the T14 4-set hurt paladin bad. Our throughput CDs are mostly wasted if we can't stand in place and spam away. Our smart heal is weak, with 522 ilvl ~22k int and raid buffs LoD heals under 20k noncrit + some 6k shield. That's nothing compared to Wild Growth or PoH. Even then we have to choose between powerful single target heal or weak raid heal. Jin'Rokh HC's lightning storm phase makes me feel utterly useless because LoD heals so little and only time you can reliably get some casts off is the 8s immunity with Divine Shield, which can be used once in the fight.

[Kyuuseishu]

paladins have more than enough tools already, guardian of ancient kings is one of your major healing cds, paladins are very strong healers both single target and aoe when handled properly, if paladins were to get a raid healing cooldown then the other heals would have to be brought down to balance this out. The other healers are balanced around these raid cooldowns and even with these a holy paladin has much more output than any other healer, healing cooldowns are designed to be used for maximum possible healing so there will be a high percentage of healing done. The only problem there is atm is currently absorbs are very strong which devalues other healers by a fair margin.

Its not all about the meters and if this is your primary concern then you have your priorities very wrong, i do agree that all utilities should be redesigned so that world of logs can measure how effective they are though.

All healers are in a good place, it does depend on the fight but Paladins and Disc is one of the best healing specs currently, in every fight there has to be a top healer and a bottom healer though.

GoAK is such small percentage of our healing, and you maybe get to heal 2-3 people with it?, by that point everyone else is topped and the last few charges of it go to waste. Realistically though DA is quite useless in its current form, with only niche appeal on some fights where there is a short burst of incredibly high magic damage. Whereas the healing raid CD's of a monk, druid and holy priest all have a wide appeal since they can be used in almost any situation of raid wide damage and have a lot more healing potential than DA does. I wouldn't say healers are balanced around the potential of their raid CD's though, since being able to potentially heal 3 million per Tranq, would mean without it, they're damn near useless when it comes to typical healing which isn't the case.

I would actually want DA to include physical, since I enjoyed switching my aura to give what type of damage reduction we needed when it was Aura mastery, maybe a slightly longer duration. I wouldn't enjoy it if it gained a healing component instead of damage prevention.

On the subject of healing meters, people here aren't overly concerned about them, but when you look at healing potential since 5.3 hit on raidbots, the nerfs to holy paladins have hurt them considerably in both raid sizes pushing them to roughly 2nd bottom whereas disc priests have stayed relatively constant. But this is the subject of another thread and I won't bring it here.

Tonight on a short wipe on Heroic Durumu, our monk did 1 revival.
3085550 healing done with 59.5 overheal. Had it all been effective it would of been 7618641 healing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2454&e=2806

These logs show 2 revival uses. When you do all the math it would equal 14425837.93 total output from two revivals. So about 7212918.965 for 1.
There, are those numbers better? Its not 9m but between 7-8m is still pretty damn good.

I hate to correct your maths with that log but considering the number of actual heals it does is 64, and the fact revival target cap is 15 in 25 man, it puts the use of revival at 5. Which makes the potential healing of each one at 2.89mil.

[Deleted]

Link me this log, this is theoretically impossible.

It is.... not

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4074&e=4210

If you cant see the log then ill take a screenshot for you, this is the last phase of this weeks Ra-den, a period of 137 seconds so he only managed to use 1 revival (not that I think anyone has ever done a 3min+ last phase of ra-den). For referance he is ilvl 534 and would obviously had done a lot more if he had been in full heroic gear + cloak.

[Kyuuseishu]

It is.... not

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4074&e=4210

If you cant see the log then ill take a screenshot for you, this is the last phase of this weeks Ra-den, a period of 137 seconds so he only managed to use 1 revival (not that I think anyone has ever done a 3min+ last phase of ra-den). For referance he is ilvl 534 and would obviously had done a lot more if he had been in full heroic gear + cloak.

Considering the number of direct heals being 38, with a target cap of 15, that's 3 revivals which puts it at roughly 3 mil per revival, unless somehow it hits past the target cap, and you suddenly have 38 bodies to heal.

[Deleted]

You can't tell much with that log since the healing numbers shown are for the entire fight even if you've restricted the graph. I can only assume since doing 36.7million (not including overhealing) over 137 seconds? and with the number of direct heals being 38, with a target cap of 15, that's 3 revivals which puts it at roughly 3 mil per revival.

No? Unless there is a bug with revival on WoL this is not true. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3782&e=4212 that is the log of the entire kill. You can obviously see that spells like Uplift did 316 hits (full kill) vs 202 (last phase), all heals are the same story except for Revival which means that he only used it once but you are right the number of hits (38) is a lot more than the supposed target cap, maybe it doesnt have one?

The 38 bodies as you put it would have to be pets of course.

[Kyuuseishu]

No? Unless there is a bug with revival on WoL this is not true. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3782&e=4212 that is the log of the entire kill. You can obviously see that spells like Uplift did 316 hits (full kill) vs 202 (last phase), all heals are the same story except for Revival which means that he only used it once but you are right the number of hits (38) is a lot more than the supposed target cap, maybe it doesnt have one?

I did edit my post for the healing numbers part, I'm too used to 10man numbers I apologize. It is supposed to have one since its 6 in 10 and 15 in 25 so I'm not entirely sure what has gone on, but all the other logs I've looked at puts its healing power at about 3 million per cast on average

But from the full log revival is identical in the full fight and in the restricted time zone, so trying to determine its healing power during that specific part will be quite difficult.

[Deleted]

But from the full log revival is identical in the full fight and in the restricted time zone, so trying to determine its healing power during that specific part will be quite difficult.

As I said thats just because he used it once or there is a bug with Revival on WoL as it is the only spell that has the same amount of hits over the entire fight, my own cds such as Holy Avenger show 3 for the entire fight and 2 for the last phase. His Renewing Mists, Uplift, Spinning Crane Kick, Chi Torpedo, Chi Burst etc etc all have higher number of hits over the course of the fight than just in the last phase.

If there was a bug with Revival on WoL the number of hits should be far higher as we also did lei shen and he used a lot more than 3 revivals (as you think it is) in the course of that night. On Lei Shen for comparison his revival did a total of 13.2 million which is 6.6 million per revival and is closer to the average 25 player revival.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that there is no target cap on revival or he somehow managed to bug it to get no target cap.

[Kyuuseishu]

As I said thats just because he used it once or there is a bug with Revival on WoL as it is the only spell that has the same amount of hits over the entire fight, my own cds such as Holy Avenger show 3 for the entire fight and 2 for the last phase. His Renewing Mists, Uplift, Spinning Crane Kick, Chi Torpedo, Chi Burst etc etc all have higher number of hits over the course of the fight than just in the last phase.

If there was a bug with Revival on WoL the number of hits should be far higher as we also did lei shen and he used a lot more than 3 revivals (as you think it is) in the course of that night. On Lei Shen for comparison his revival did a total of 13.2 million which is 6.6 million per revival and is closer to the average 25 player revival.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that there is no target cap on revival or he somehow managed to bug it to get no target cap.

I'm not trying to argue against its strength, the maths just didn't add up for me sorry. But considering you have a lot more 25man experience than I have I'm going to take your word on its average healing power in a 25man environment.

[Freia]

I hate to correct your maths with that log but considering the number of actual heals it does is 64, and the fact revival target cap is 15 in 25 man, it puts the use of revival at 5. Which makes the potential healing of each one at 2.89mil.

Explain how he can use 5 revivals(a 3 minute cooldown) in 5 minute 51`second fight? Even if he popped revival at the pull he could only get 2 uses out of it in that time. The graph also is a very good indicator of when he used it, you see 2 huge jumps in heals, no more

Considering the number of direct heals being 38, with a target cap of 15, that's 3 revivals which puts it at roughly 3 mil per revival, unless somehow it hits past the target cap, and you suddenly have 38 bodies to heal.

It is showing 33 hits on the logs for our monks on a 3 minute attempt. Only possible to do it once. It was showing 64 on the logs of Kmy's paladins when it was only possible to do 2(5 minute something fight). Pacer is linking a segment of the fight showing one revival use. If it is capped at 15, it is showing as more hits in WoL. As for more than 25 people, pets are part of the raid as well. If you look at the who he healed you see multiple pets in gray. And having more than the 15 target cap is consistent in all the logs I have looked at for revival. It is very possible there is a bug somewhere. It is not like it would be the only one this patch.

[Kyuuseishu]

Explain how he can use 5 revivals(a 3 minute cooldown) in 5 minute 51`second fight? Even if he popped revival at the pull he could only get 2 uses out of it in that time. The graph also is a very good indicator of when he used it, you see 2 huge jumps in heals, no more



It is showing 33 hits on the logs for our monks on a 3 minute attempt. Only possible to do it once. It was showing 64 on the logs of Kmy's paladins when it was only possible to do 2(5 minute something fight). Pacer is linking a segment of the fight showing one revival use. If it is capped at 15, it is showing as more hits in WoL. As for more than 25 people, pets are part of the raid as well. If you look at the who he healed you see multiple pets in gray. And having more than the 15 target cap is consistent in all the logs I have looked at for revival. It is very possible there is a bug somewhere. It is not like it would be the only one this patch.

Like I said the maths didn't add up and I've already apologised for this (Didn't pay attention to fight length also, sorry) when it has a 15 person target limit, and the log he linked shows revival at 38 regardless of the segment or the entire full length fight so that is something for the logs to sort out or their is something wrong with the target count of revival.

[Deleted]

As per my spreadsheet, if everything crit on a revival with 42k spellpower (roughly what you have at me and luq's ilvl) you're looking at a 8.1 million heal. Either one of three things is happening, Revival is bugged, Luq got lucky with his intellect procs with a jade serpent potion, or world of logs is bugged. It's the former though, Revival can be seen to be hitting pets and clearly isn't DRing on them which is resulting in an absurdly high overheal percentage in world of logs.

Regardless, it wouldn't matter if revival did 100 million, it's capped to the health deficit of the raid at time of pressing the button and you're pretty hard pressed to get a revival over 3/4 million if you're using it when you're told to.

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 01:03 PM ----------

The only conclusion that I can draw is that there is no target cap on revival or he somehow managed to bug it to get no target cap.

Revival hits every party and raid member, do you mean the player count it begins to meteor at?

[Raynette]

Like I said the maths didn't add up and I've already apologised for this (Didn't pay attention to fight length also, sorry) when it has a 15 person target limit, and the log he linked shows revival at 38 regardless of the segment or the entire full length fight so that is something for the logs to sort out or their is something wrong with the target count of revival.

There is no target cap on revival.
It just DR at 15 targets in 25 man.

[Kyuuseishu]

As per my spreadsheet, if everything crit on a revival with 42k spellpower (roughly what you have at me and luq's ilvl) you're looking at a 8.1 million heal. Either one of three things is happening, Revival is bugged, Luq got lucky with his intellect procs with a jade serpent potion, or world of logs is bugged. It's the former though, Revival can be seen to be hitting pets and clearly isn't DRing on them which is resulting in an absurdly high overheal percentage in world of logs.

Regardless, it wouldn't matter if revival did 100 million, it's capped to the health deficit of the raid at time of pressing the button and you're pretty hard pressed to get a revival over 3/4 million if you're using it when you're told to.

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 01:03 PM ----------



Revival hits every party and raid member, do you mean the player count it begins to meteor at?

Kind of reinforces the point (not the 9mil per revival one) that revival and other such CD's have such a high potential whereas DA's potential is somewhat diminished by limited situations in which it can shine. A physical damage reduction component on it and bit longer duration (1-2 seconds) and I would be happy with it.

There is no target cap on revival.
It just DR at 15 targets in 25 man.

Thank you for the clarification, I realised I took the target cap a tad too literally ^^

[Freia]

Revival hits every party and raid member, do you mean the player count it begins to meteor at?

He is responding to Kyuuseishu who was saying the logs couldn't possibly be 1 revival because it is capped at 15 people, obviously that is incorrect.

[Deleted]

DA should mitigate physical damage too, for starters.

I think a lot of the frustration (for me at least) is the spec simply 'feels' wrong, and other good healers (discs/monks) simply rape us, no matter what we do. Spamming HR is shit, HP gen feels all wrong, we're being 'punished' for our utility spells (which aren't even that gamebreaking), we have no burst aoe, and if we can't melee we're fucked further. A healers job is to save lives, our toolkit (other than LoH) doesn't seem to do that. We're support at best, but we can't do 70k dps like a mistweaver or holy/disc so meh anyway. I'm only 10/13H so it might be different on lei shen and ra'den, but it really doesn't feel like it will be. We shouldn't need to 'cheese' hp generation or constantly move beacon every cast either.

[Deleted]

There is no target cap on revival.
It just DR at 15 targets in 25 man.

This explains a lot as I know basically nothing about monks. Anyways going back to the 9 million revival, with 38 targets hit that is 13 pets which puts the healing done to players at 6 million where aprox 50% of it is overhealing.

DA should mitigate physical damage too, for starters.

I dont agree with you, Devotion Aura although lacking is "fine" when compared to SLT and Barrier. As many people has stated its our burst healing that lacks and its the burst healing cds of other classes that are too strong. Keep Devotion Aura as is but buff our guardian, buffing it to 20% healing or 30% healing spread to other players maybe increasing the range by 5-10 yards would put it more in line with other healers burst cds. Guardian is a 5min cd that is almost useless atm.

[Deleted]

I dont agree with you, Devotion Aura although lacking is "fine" when compared to SLT and Barrier. As many people has stated its our burst healing that lacks and its the burst healing cds of other classes that are too strong. Keep Devotion Aura as is but buff our guardian, buffing it to 20% healing or 30% healing spread to other players maybe increasing the range by 5-10 yards would put it more in line with other healers burst cds. Guardian is a 5min cd that is almost useless atm.

Both barrier and SLT only have positional requirements, and mitigate all types of damage. Barrier is 25% (so already stronger, but for all damage), and SLT+AV is simply awesome for actually stabilising a raid in times of 'oh fuck' - DA mitigates magic damage, has no positional requirement, but does less than a disc priests barrier (which can be combined with SS 100% of the time). It's lacklustre, and there's no reason for it not to mitigate physical damage to my mind. (I'll be honest, I don't even know how to use guardian in a way that it does more than about 300-500k healing)

[cakin]

While people say that DA shouldn't be looked at consider this. Both Resto and Boomkin druids bring tranquility. However Resto's is far superior as far as potency. So when we pop DA what benefit do we bring besides Prot and Ret.

I firmly believe in keeping classes different so please do not give us a huge HPS cd like tranq or DH. Holy needs to have DA looked at period. Having it affect physical damage would be very beneficial or make it like what someone else mentioned, something that that ties in with our mastery and shields.

[Freia]

This explains a lot as I know basically nothing about monks. Anyways going back to the 9 million revival, with 38 targets hit that is 13 pets which puts the healing done to players at 6 million where aprox 50% of it is overhealing.


I dont agree with you, Devotion Aura although lacking is "fine" when compared to SLT and Barrier. As many people has stated its our burst healing that lacks and its the burst healing cds of other classes that are too strong. Keep Devotion Aura as is but buff our guardian, buffing it to 20% healing or 30% healing spread to other players maybe increasing the range by 5-10 yards would put it more in line with other healers burst cds. Guardian is a 5min cd that is almost useless atm.

I don't really think increasing the spreading healing to 20-30% on guardian would help bring it in line with other cooldowns unless they change the fact that it only is spreading the the heals of the next 5 single target spells.

[Deleted]

While people say that DA shouldn't be looked at consider this. Both Resto and Boomkin druids bring tranquility. However Resto's is far superior as far as potency. So when we pop DA what benefit do we bring besides Prot and Ret.

I firmly believe in keeping classes different so please do not give us a huge HPS cd like tranq or DH. Holy needs to have DA looked at period. Having it affect physical damage would be very beneficial or make it like what someone else mentioned, something that that ties in with our mastery and shields.

Guardian is not some new cooldown, it is an almost useless cooldown that once used to be decent. Currently most people dont even use DL when they use guardian because it is a waste compared to HR + guardian haste buff but back in Cataclysm (or the start of it) all we had was DL spam so guardian was actually okay.

I don't really think increasing the spreading healing to 20-30% on guardian would help bring it in line with other cooldowns unless they change the fact that it only is spreading the the heals of the next 5 single target spells.

I dont think it needs to be "in line with other classes healing cds" as we already have Devotion Aura. Although guardian would probably have to scale like HR so it did a lot of healing if theres few people and a low amount of healing when there is a lot of people in the cluster.

On a boss fight where everyone is grouped up and you spam 5x Divine Light it currently does arround 10k to each person per heal, if you trippe that you will do a ton of aoe healing.

If anyone is wondering why I suggest buffing guardian, go have a look at Aladyas guardian healing done. His guardian did 3.7 million healing over the course of 10 boss fights, pretty pathetic if you ask me.