Holy Paly - Raid cooldown status

[Deleted]

I also find it cute that you think you should be able to top the healing meters while fistweaving.

I never said that now did I ^_^

---------- Post added 2013-06-03 at 06:36 PM ----------

The hps effect on 10s isn't the same (speaking as someone who raids 10s). These raid cooldowns up the hps of the other healers a lot in 25s and like it or not the capabilities of classes gets judged by world of logs and hps etc.

Your argument is literally it's bad because of big numbers, do you even understand how this game works?

[Freia]

I never said that now did I ^_^[COLOR="red"]

You never used thunder focus tea, the priests used spirit shell 2 times... You guys are basically dps healing and then you post the paladin beating you on an attempt as proof that paladins overpowered sustained healing. You are giving him the meters. Move along.

[Deleted]

You never used thunder focus tea, the priests used spirit shell 2 times... You guys are basically dps healing and then you post the paladin beating you on an attempt as proof that paladins overpowered sustained healing. You are giving him the meters. Move along.

This is what I'm reading right now;

"He's doing well but..."

Take it for what it is, it's a log showing holy paladins are capable of competitive numbers even when a large majority of their spells are overhealing well into the 60/70th percentiles. It's almost like being humble is taboo on these forums haha. I stand by my point that paladin sustained is fine and their cooldown is what needs looked at though

[Freia]

This is what I'm reading right now;

"He's doing well but..."

Take it for what it is, it's a log showing holy paladins are capable of competitive numbers even when a large majority of their spells are overhealing well into the 60/70th percentiles. It's almost like being humble is taboo on these forums haha. I stand by my point that paladin sustained is fine and their cooldown is what needs looked at though

If that is what you are reading, read harder. What I am reading from you on your log, "Look at our Holy paladin top healing on an attempt where all the other healers are focusing on dpsing! See they are good!"

You can stand by that all you want. It is pretty laughable though.

[Floopa]

I don't know what Reglitch is arguing. Paladin sustained is good on fights where sustained... isn't needed basically. Ra-den p2 is the "ultimate sustained champion's league" of healers, that phase tells you which healers have the best sustained and it goes MW > Priests > Shaman > Paladins > Druids. It really does.

[Deleted]

The problem with Paladin mastery is, on easy content you will see high numbers (honestly 40-50%) and on harder content you'll see lower numbers (around 20-30%). Its just the nature of the stat. If you are 3 healing fights that should be 2 healed or 5/6 healing fights that can be 4 healed you are going to see high numbers done by Illuminated Healing.

It's the reverse of druids Rejev. When doing the harder fights and mana is tight you will easily see Rejev doing 50% of a druids total healing, but do the easier fights or use too many healers and it'll do very little.

As for the log, after seeing it that is less an issue with Paladin Mastery and more an issue with the other healers. The Paladin was able to do what he wanted and it isn't a healing intensive fight as it is (bar final phase) so it isn't surprising so much of it was Illuminated Healing. When doing 25 heroic modes and using less healers to meet DPS requirements you will find Illuminated Healing does a far smaller portion of his total heals.

That said, I have never been a fan of absorbs that don't come as a result of actually proactively absorbing (Ie Divine Aegis and Illuminated Healing suck imo) and would much rather those go from the game. I would much rather Holy Paladins get Exorcism (when cast on friendly party it heals, also useful for Ret PvP then too) which also generates Holy Power and have Mastery do something like increase the potency of Holy Power generating/consuming spells by X%.

As for Paladin cooldowns. Holy Paladins bring some useful abilities sure, but most of those can be taken from Prot or Ret and there is no real reason to bring a Paladin that's actually Holy, might aswell just go Prot and tank it. Devo Aura is in need of a buff to bring it up to par with other healer CDs. It does not need to be a 'heal' but it does need to affect all kinds of damage. When glyphed it should last for 8 seconds, have a larger range and reduce magical and physical damage by 30%. The negative effect of this glyph (to stop it being too strong in PvP mainly) is that it'll no longer provide silence immunity.

Finally Hand of Sacrifice needs to not transfer damage in a raid environment.

[Raugnaut]

Holy paladins have the ability to nullify many tank-swapping mechanics. Granted, all paladins have this ability, but in terms of healers, only paladins have this capability.

Devotion Aura is 20% reduced magical damage for 6 seconds, as well as interupt/silence/pushback immunity for 6 seconds. Granted, the silence immunity is pretty redundant in raids without silences, but pushbacks do happen in raids these days while casting spells.

In a situation where the raid is taking about 55k magical dps, Devotion Aura will effectively heal/prevent 11k dps per target- in a 10 man, thats the equivalent of 110k heals per second. In a 25 man, thats a whopping 275k heals per second. The reason why the healing CDs for other classes got buffed? The damage reduction CDs from Paladins/Disc priests scales PER PLAYER. The healing CDs on other classes has the cap of players healed per second.

So, yes. While your raid CD won't appear on healing meters, you effectively PREVENT the same amount of damage that healing CDs HEAL. Certainly, there are situations in which Aura Mastery isn't as useful as a Tranq, or other cooldowns... But it is VERY useful on A) Jin'rokh during thunderstorms, B) Council during Sandstorms, should your strat feature them in any form, C) Tortos during Rockfalls, should your raid not handle the 20 yd movement very well, D) Meg during Rampage, HUGE amount of damage prevented there, E) Durumu during Light Spectrum (not so powerful here, but it does help to reduce damages), F)Ventral Sacs/Gas Bladder combo on Primordius, G)Interupting Jolt during Dark Animus (Not sure on this. Does Devotion Aura prevent the interupt? in that case, HUGE on Dark Animus), H)Storm on Iron Qon, I)throughout the entire fight on Twin Consorts, and J) Lei Shen Windstorm.

Essentially, there are only 2 fights in which Devotion Aura doesn't have a good amount of function as the healing CDs from the other classes, Horridon and Ji-kun, and even then, both have minor usefulness in certain situations as a mini-barkskin for a few targets.

So, yea. Devotion Aura functions perfectly as a raid CD in nearly ALL of the fights in Throne of Thunder.

[Kyuuseishu]

Holy paladins have the ability to nullify many tank-swapping mechanics. Granted, all paladins have this ability, but in terms of healers, only paladins have this capability.

Devotion Aura is 20% reduced magical damage for 6 seconds, as well as interupt/silence/pushback immunity for 6 seconds. Granted, the silence immunity is pretty redundant in raids without silences, but pushbacks do happen in raids these days while casting spells.

In a situation where the raid is taking about 55k magical dps, Devotion Aura will effectively heal/prevent 11k dps per target- in a 10 man, thats the equivalent of 110k heals per second. In a 25 man, thats a whopping 275k heals per second. The reason why the healing CDs for other classes got buffed? The damage reduction CDs from Paladins/Disc priests scales PER PLAYER. The healing CDs on other classes has the cap of players healed per second.

So, yes. While your raid CD won't appear on healing meters, you effectively PREVENT the same amount of damage that healing CDs HEAL. Certainly, there are situations in which Aura Mastery isn't as useful as a Tranq, or other cooldowns... But it is VERY useful on A) Jin'rokh during thunderstorms, B) Council during Sandstorms, should your strat feature them in any form, C) Tortos during Rockfalls, should your raid not handle the 20 yd movement very well, D) Meg during Rampage, HUGE amount of damage prevented there, E) Durumu during Light Spectrum (not so powerful here, but it does help to reduce damages), F)Ventral Sacs/Gas Bladder combo on Primordius, G)Interupting Jolt during Dark Animus (Not sure on this. Does Devotion Aura prevent the interupt? in that case, HUGE on Dark Animus), H)Storm on Iron Qon, I)throughout the entire fight on Twin Consorts, and J) Lei Shen Windstorm.

Essentially, there are only 2 fights in which Devotion Aura doesn't have a good amount of function as the healing CDs from the other classes, Horridon and Ji-kun, and even then, both have minor usefulness in certain situations as a mini-barkskin for a few targets.

So, yea. Devotion Aura functions perfectly as a raid CD in nearly ALL of the fights in Throne of Thunder.

The first sentence is moot since it isn't always the case that they allow tank swap mechanics to be removable via immunities, it just to happens this tier there happens to be quite a few of them, Qon, Durumuu etc.

But DA preventing the same amount of damage as the others heal? I don't think so, there has to be some pretty damn heavy magic damage going out for it to prevent similar healing numbers compared to a tranq or revival, which is the main argument, that the other CD's are quite damn powerful compared to it (esp in 25 man). Also considering its not unique to holy, and this is a thread on holy raid cooldowns, what would be the point bringing a holy paladin if all specs get it? something unique to holy would be nice, or at least an enhanced version.

[nightfalls]

Essentially, there are only 2 fights in which Devotion Aura doesn't have a good amount of function as the healing CDs from the other classes, Horridon and Ji-kun, and even then, both have minor usefulness in certain situations as a mini-barkskin for a few targets.

Devotion Aura is usable on Horridon but it's absolutely shit on by Revival (doh).

On Ji-Kun it's pathetic when anyone even says it's "minorly usable" - Hey! Did you guys know you can use SLT and PW:B as a 2-3 target cooldown/barkskin also?? Or OMG WE CAN USE REVIVAL AS A HEALTHSTONE!!11 TOO OP

So, yea. Devotion Aura functions perfectly as a raid CD in nearly ALL of the fights in Throne of Thunder.

And CD's such as Tranquility, Revival, and Hymn function perfectly as raid CDs in ALL fights (notice, no "nearly" there) on Throne of Thunder. With Revival being the biggest offender, it's (amazingly) useful on everything, whether the monk complainers here admit it or not.

On the weakest fights for Revival, it still far eclipses Devotion Aura on Horridon/Ji-Kun, and of course far eclipses stuff like barrier.

[mcbubble]

Devotion Aura is 20% reduced magical damage for 6 seconds, as well as interupt/silence/pushback immunity for 6 seconds. Granted, the silence immunity is pretty redundant in raids without silences, but pushbacks do happen in raids these days while casting spells.

In a situation where the raid is taking about 55k magical dps, Devotion Aura will effectively heal/prevent 11k dps per target- in a 10 man, thats the equivalent of 110k heals per second. In a 25 man, thats a whopping 275k heals per second. The reason why the healing CDs for other classes got buffed? The damage reduction CDs from Paladins/Disc priests scales PER PLAYER. The healing CDs on other classes has the cap of players healed per second.

So, yes. While your raid CD won't appear on healing meters, you effectively PREVENT the same amount of damage that healing CDs HEAL. Certainly, there are situations in which Aura Mastery isn't as useful as a Tranq, or other cooldowns... But it is VERY useful on A) Jin'rokh during thunderstorms, B) Council during Sandstorms, should your strat feature them in any form, C) Tortos during Rockfalls, should your raid not handle the 20 yd movement very well, D) Meg during Rampage, HUGE amount of damage prevented there, E) Durumu during Light Spectrum (not so powerful here, but it does help to reduce damages), F)Ventral Sacs/Gas Bladder combo on Primordius, G)Interupting Jolt during Dark Animus (Not sure on this. Does Devotion Aura prevent the interupt? in that case, HUGE on Dark Animus), H)Storm on Iron Qon, I)throughout the entire fight on Twin Consorts, and J) Lei Shen Windstorm.

Essentially, there are only 2 fights in which Devotion Aura doesn't have a good amount of function as the healing CDs from the other classes, Horridon and Ji-kun, and even then, both have minor usefulness in certain situations as a mini-barkskin for a few targets.

So, yea. Devotion Aura functions perfectly as a raid CD in nearly ALL of the fights in Throne of Thunder.

I never argued that DA wasn't bad. It's just not a good healer cooldown in terms of keeping a raid alive or sheer HPS (like tranq, revival, or hymn).

For instance, compare DA to a glyphed healing stream totem, which has 50% uptime. The glyph mitigates 10% magic damage.
So really, if DA is popped while a HST is down, we only mitigate 10% more than that. As our raid cooldown. Oh, and ours is up ever 3 minutes instead of 15 seconds every 30 seconds....oh and it doesn't heal. Now I know HST doesn't hit the raid...I'm just saying we're not a flat 20% magic reduction.

Druid/Priest/and especially monk CDs are so strong that they impacted not only our healing, but look at resto shammies.
They had no nerfs, and yet their healing dropped substantially. Why? Their mastery is almost useless because raids are being topped by these cooldowns, and they can't heal quicker than these CDs.

The proof is in the pudding.
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111
or
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111

[Deleted]

Don't think anyone is saying revival isn't amazing (it's a cooldown, it should be), just that it can't heal every fight from now until next expansion with one press of a button. Just like nobody has said they think DA is completely fine atm.

[Pasture]

I never said that now did I ^_^

---------- Post added 2013-06-03 at 06:36 PM ----------



Your argument is literally it's bad because of big numbers, do you even understand how this game works?

If you're arguing that no one cares about the numbers then you don't understand how real life works. I'm aware it's more than a numbers game. But when WoL etc numbers start dropping off you're going to see Holy Paladins in raids drop off. Just because you're above looking at numbers doesn't mean other people won't judge based on it.

Either way, I raid 10s, so none of this really effects me. It doesn't change the fact that healing raid cooldowns have become too strong.

---------- Post added 2013-06-03 at 11:38 PM ----------

Holy paladins have the ability to nullify many tank-swapping mechanics. Granted, all paladins have this ability, but in terms of healers, only paladins have this capability.

I think they're going to nullify that next tier. Either tank swaps will be needed for reasons other than stacks or they'll just make the dots magic to avoid any BoP shenanigans. I can't see BoP getting the use is has done so far this expansion.

---------- Post added 2013-06-03 at 11:41 PM ----------

I don't know what Reglitch is arguing. Paladin sustained is good on fights where sustained... isn't needed basically. Ra-den p2 is the "ultimate sustained champion's league" of healers, that phase tells you which healers have the best sustained and it goes MW > Priests > Shaman > Paladins > Druids. It really does.

And tbf that is an ideal Paladin situation. It doesn't get better than the entire group stacked together with constant AoE. Our weakness is spread AoE. We should be very strong at clumped AoE. That's a situation where the Paladin / Shaman should always win out and something is wrong if they aren't.

[Freia]

Just like nobody has said they think DA is completely fine atm.

Actually multiple people in this thread have said exactly that. See raugnaut's post above? There is an example of one. Anyone who actually thinks Devo mitigates as much as healing cooldowns heal now need a reality check.

[Deleted]

Just like nobody has said they think DA is completely fine atm.

I actually do think Devotion Aura is more than fine, it is our toolkit overall that is not. We have 5 cooldowns if we spec into it (6 if you count Lights Hammer) and only Devotion Aura is instant or close to being it. Our highest throughput cd requires the raid to be stacked for 15 seconds only to do 1/4th the healing of revival and healing cooldowns like it.

We do not have anything that can save a raid if shit goes wrong, in 10 man guardian could potentially save the raid if its a tank dying and the other tank suddenly have to tank two or more bosses (like on council) but for the most part our cooldowns will not save the raid from a wipe.

The key to good game design is not to make all abilities do the same so I dont think they should change Devotion Aura, it is fine that it has 40 yard range as the only damage reduction cooldown while maintaining the 20% spell damage reduction. There is no need at all to add physical damage reduction as we have Hand of Sacrifice for saving tanks although this ability is completely useless on a lot of encounters if you dont bubble as it will kill you but thats for another discussion.

Preferably they should just buff guardian in some way as it is already quite unique but the healing it currently provides is just garbage.

[Deleted]

If you're arguing that no one cares about the numbers then you don't understand how real life works. I'm aware it's more than a numbers game. But when WoL etc numbers start dropping off you're going to see Holy Paladins in raids drop off. Just because you're above looking at numbers doesn't mean other people won't judge based on it.

Either way, I raid 10s, so none of this really effects me. It doesn't change the fact that healing raid cooldowns have become too strong.[COLOR="red"]

I don't know how real life works? Is that some (terrible) attempt at an insult? I know some people care about the numbers, those people are drastically uninformed.

Also, you raid 10's? So you've never had a raid leader say, "Sorry, we'd rather have a druid with tranq heal because it tops the raid." The change was intended to make cooldowns scale with difficulty, something which was already innately happening with percentage based cooldowns such as DA and PWB. Unfortunately the side effect is that AOE damage in 25 doesn't scale up as much as they new cooldowns do. Hence the difference, there's absolutely no point in creating an arms race for HPS.

---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 12:14 AM ----------

Actually multiple people in this thread have said exactly that. See raugnaut's post above? There is an example of one. Anyone who actually thinks Devo mitigates as much as healing cooldowns heal now need a reality check.

Let's pretend I said nobody with a clue about what these changes were intended to do and their actual effect. It's pretty obvious DA is lacking.

[Deleted]

So, yes. While your raid CD won't appear on healing meters, you effectively PREVENT the same amount of damage that healing CDs HEAL. Certainly, there are situations in which Aura Mastery isn't as useful as a Tranq, or other cooldowns... But it is VERY useful on A) Jin'rokh during thunderstorms, B) Council during Sandstorms, should your strat feature them in any form, C) Tortos during Rockfalls, should your raid not handle the 20 yd movement very well, D) Meg during Rampage, HUGE amount of damage prevented there, E) Durumu during Light Spectrum (not so powerful here, but it does help to reduce damages), F)Ventral Sacs/Gas Bladder combo on Primordius, G)Interupting Jolt during Dark Animus (Not sure on this. Does Devotion Aura prevent the interupt? in that case, HUGE on Dark Animus), H)Storm on Iron Qon, I)throughout the entire fight on Twin Consorts, and J) Lei Shen Windstorm.

Devotion Aura prevents the raid from taking 2 million damage in ideal situations (Dark Animus, Megaera and Ra den) while revival heals for 6 million (not counting healing on pets). You also have to keep in mind that revival is the "worst" one of the healing cds in terms of pure hps.

Despite being 1/3rd as powerful as revival on every fight except for Dark Animus where revival does not prevent 1 shots but Devotion Aura does, I do agree that Devotion Aura is fine and it is other parts of our toolkit that needs fixing. Guardian of Ancient kings most notably which averages out at arround 500k healing per fight, really really pathetic considering it is a 5min cd and you can use it twice on most fights. Another ability that needs fixing is Hand of Sacrifice although not a raid cooldown but something that should save tanks, often ends up killing us if we dont combine it with bubble.

[Floopa]

Another point to bring up is that healing CDs and damage reduction CDs both have their moments in the sun.

Ra-den is a perfect example(as I used it previously to argue Paladin throughput HPS lacked compared to MW/Priest). The first anima orb you kill will cause your raid to take 720k damage unmitigated. Now that's going to 1 shot anyone in your raid if they don't use a personal. Barrier is a 20% reduction, DA is a 20% reduction. Does Revival help the raid which takes 720k damage unmitigated? It does not.

Both have their uses. I feel DA could extend to physical damage but I think Blizzard don't want to do that purely on the basis of the strength of Protection Paladins. Perhaps it could be made a Holy-only thing? Your short-comings (in this regard) happen because Prot Paladins are pretty damn strong at the moment. It's sad but true. It's the same reason the PTR version of Chi Wave, Zen Sphere and Chi Burst (which were all originally buffed) got nerfed by 50%.

[Malthanis]

Let's remember to keep it civil, please.

[Deleted]

Both have their uses. I feel DA could extend to physical damage but I think Blizzard don't want to do that purely on the basis of the strength of Protection Paladins. Perhaps it could be made a Holy-only thing? Your short-comings (in this regard) happen because Prot Paladins are pretty damn strong at the moment. It's sad but true. It's the same reason the PTR version of Chi Wave, Zen Sphere and Chi Burst (which were all originally buffed) got nerfed by 50%.

The reason why they cant extend it to be physical is that the moment they do that a thread will appear in the priest and shaman forum with a title just like this one and then they will be mad that our damage reduction cooldown is better than theirs. Ours being 40 yard spell damage and theirs being 10 yards all damage is as balanced as it gets.

[Floopa]

The reason why they cant extend it to be physical is that the moment they do that a thread will appear in the priest and shaman forum with a title just like this one and then they will be mad that our damage reduction cooldown is better than theirs. Ours being 40 yard spell damage and theirs being 10 yards all damage is as balanced as it gets.

That's also true but then Priests have Spirit Shell (if we're talking about Disc) as well as Atonement. If Priests would think they're being screwed over because Paladin's DA now reduces physical damage then I think they're just crying for no reason.