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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    @ op:
    Have you ever asked yourself if maybe, just maybe, the decline in numbers of players doing normal raiding isnt beacuse of the difficulty?
    With lfr being so easy allowing any1 to see all content, what incentive is there really for new players to devote any considerable amount of time on nomral mode?
    So, you're saying LFR is easier than normal, but that the problem isn't difficulty?

    What?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Well, except for the statistics, which totally contradict your lie, and the fact you are basically proposing the Blizzard implement the Cure for Stupid.

    Yeah, your conclusion is totally reasonable. [/sarcasm]
    Every single guild stucked in normal fails at the very basics of raiding. Logs are there for everyone to see. Clearing normal don't ask for superb reflex or strategies. Only for basic rotations, movement and use of CDs, with margin for quite a few of errors. Stupid, as you call them, is something very different of ignorant. Normal raiding is something that anyone clearing Super Mario World can do. A 10 year old boy can, a 60 year old man can They just need to learn 20 buttons instead of 2.

    The logic, if you still don't see it, is: a) put the means to teach the basics (additional content, it won't be too extensive, truth be told) b) People clears normal effortessly (even more additional content). Ta-chan.

    Yes, you are still going to say that people are stupid. Don't be so subjective.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Every single guild stucked in normal fails at the very basics of raiding. Logs are there for everyone to see. Clearing normal don't ask for superb reflex or strategies. Only for basic rotations, movement and use of CDs, with margin for quite a few of errors. Stupid, as you call them, is something very different of ignorant. Normal raiding is something that anyone clearing Super Mario World can do. A 10 year old boy can, a 60 year old man can They just need to learn 20 buttons instead of 2.

    The logic, if you still don't see it, is: a) put the means to teach the basics (additional content, it won't be too extensive, truth be told) b) People clears normal effortessly (even more additional content). Ta-chan.

    Yes, you are still going to say that people are stupid. Don't be so subjective.
    You've defined the situation in such a way that failure to finish content can never be the fault of the raid itself, only of the players. This is obviously ridiculous.

    The players have a range of abilities, competencies, and attitudes that are a boundary condition that the game designer cannot change. If the raid is beyond the limits of these, it is the fault of the raid designer.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  4. #404
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    @ op:
    Have you ever asked yourself if maybe, just maybe, the decline in numbers of players doing normal raiding isnt beacuse of the difficulty?
    Of course, but no other explanation comes close to explaining the crashing numbers we're seeing. LFR should not be considered a replacement for normal mode raiding because it takes too many otherwise developing players out of the mix, which results in the horrendous numbers we now see raiding the Throne of Thunder.

    No other explanation for people dropping off into LFR really fits other than the content has become much harder or, as Ghostcrawler seems to hint, people are still stuck in the gearing pipe (a pipe that's lasted... three months?).

    Either way, the attrition rate is too high for this to go on.
    Last edited by Zell the Stormbreaker; 2013-05-31 at 03:52 PM.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    No other explanation for people dropping off into LFR really fits other than the content has become much harder or, as Ghostcrawler seems to hint, people are still stuck in the gearing pipe (a pipe that's lasted... three months?).
    As I said before, GC's explanation is absurd. My highest ilvl character right now is at ilvl 512, and hasn't been in a normal or heroic raid at all this expansion (except for some world bosses).

    If people aren't geared for ToT Normal at this point, it's because they gave up. GC is whistling past the graveyard.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You've defined the situation in such a way that failure to finish content can never be the fault of the raid itself, only of the players. This is obviously ridiculous.

    The players have a range of abilities, competencies, and attitudes that are a boundary condition that the game designer cannot change. If the raid is beyond the limits of these, it is the fault of the raid designer.
    No, I haven't. Where and how have I? Normal modes are very well within the abilities of the players. Again, they are very lenient on reflexes or strategy. Attitudes as "I don't want to go to learn, is too hard" are toxic to the durability of the game and game designers should seek to solve them offering fun and engaging content that let people learn how to play the very game at a basic level. Only heroics require going a step forward. The competencies derive from a) +b). Of course the game designer can and should change them.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-05-31 at 04:32 PM.

  7. #407
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    It's funny how in this thread there's almost a mocking, sarcastic tone to quoting "Glorious Leader"

  8. #408
    Very well done presentation OP, though it would have presented a clearer picture if you included Firelands and the tier prior as well.

    I didn't read this entire thread, but surmise that LFR + 10/25 lockout have more to do with those numbers than difficulty on its own. 84k killed Marrowgar, but only 55k killed Morchuk, and that number steadily does decline. Less people aren't trying and failing, less people are trying to begin with.
    Last edited by melodramocracy; 2013-05-31 at 05:09 PM.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Less people aren't trying and failing, less people are trying to begin with.
    I think people have more experience now and mostly know how a tier is going to turn out, so if they have a good idea it's going to be frustrating and hard, they don't bother starting.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  10. #410
    I followed the numbers in Cata a good bit and there are two links out there for earlier numbers. I'm new here so can't post links yet, but search inanage dot com for "raid numbers" and they should come right up.

    As of 28 June 2011 (pre Firelands)

    BWD:
    Magmaw - 59k
    Omnotron - 56k
    Maloriak - 52k
    Atramedes - 47k
    Nefarian - 23k

    BoT:
    Halfus - 57k
    Val and Ther - 52k
    Council - 44k
    Cho'gall - 34k

    TotFW
    Conclave - 46k
    Al'Akir - 26k

    As of 29 Nov 2011 (pre Dragon Soul but post nerfs)

    Beth - 43k
    Rhyolith - 42k
    Aly - 40k
    Shannox - 45k
    Baleroc - 42k
    Majordomo - 40k
    Rag - 32k

    Could be useful to add that to your analysis.

  11. #411
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    As I said before, GC's explanation is absurd. My highest ilvl character right now is at ilvl 512, and hasn't been in a normal or heroic raid at all this expansion (except for some world bosses).

    If people aren't geared for ToT Normal at this point, it's because they gave up. GC is whistling past the graveyard.
    Even if GCs suggested reason is true guess who ruined gearing this expansion? Seriously more players are caught up in the gear pipeline well who designed that pipe line? Their gearing blog was cumbersome and inelegant at best..

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 06:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The devs seem to really want to provide content for their favored customers, the best players. They probably even have this codified as a design principle, perhaps even driven directly from the top (Morhaime). I am hoping, but not really expecting, that the disastrous performance of MoP will lead them to question this dogma.
    What I would give to be a fly in the wall... I suspect somewhere they do very much have a principle written in stone like moses and the 10 commandments "though shalt favor the chosen ones..."
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    No, I haven't. Where and how have I? Normal modes are very well within the abilities of the players. Again, they are very lenient on reflexes or strategy. Attitudes as "I don't want to go to learn, is too hard" are toxic to the durability of the game and game designers should seek to solve them offering fun and engaging content that let people learn how to play the very game at a basic level. Only heroics require going a step forward. The competencies derive from a) +b). Of course the game designer can and should change them.
    Haha in your world everyone must life in a palace with thousands of servants [aargh not since even those servants should own a palce!]... Sure! The possibility that Bob from africa shemes to conquer the whole world and succeeds exists. BUT does Bob even thinking of doing that? What hurdles could prevent anyone from being the superstar of this world? Damn yes, we are frakkin humans and no machines you can calculate with potentials. If players quit the game before even thinking of getting better than that's fine. As developer you can now ask "do I want money from dumb fucks who will put no effort in the game at all or not?" even though that's already ironic in itself, yes he might just creates the content for these people and becomes more successful...
    Nobody demands that you have some sociological insights about what's going on but you should at least get, that there are actually people here who function as proxy for a whole lot of other people who pay money for the game and might do that for not much longer resulting in a "do it or let it" of the developers.
    There are people who say "we are a great group of people who cleared raids in wotlk and tbc 10m but fail at mop raids - we broke up or braking up or still throw ourselves against the bosses...". These people once enjoyed wow with raids. They would pay money for a game where they can do this again in the SAME MANNER they did it in the past. So you are saying "screw them since they don't want to change!11" what makes no sense if you want money from those people...
    Even though GC seems to share your sight I still have not lost hope that there is someone in blizzard who remembers how the game got popular.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    As I said before, GC's explanation is absurd. My highest ilvl character right now is at ilvl 512, and hasn't been in a normal or heroic raid at all this expansion (except for some world bosses).

    If people aren't geared for ToT Normal at this point, it's because they gave up. GC is whistling past the graveyard.
    The only possible explanation for that comment I can think of is he is using "gearing up" as code for "self nerfing" and is including getting Exalted with the Shado-Pan Assault and upgrading all your valor gear (hence even dedicated LFR players are still gearing up). Which would be insane.

  14. #414
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    So I saw this and thought I'd contribute some graphs.



    For Ulduar only 25 man data was available and individual boss kills were not. Therefore "First boss" is the achievement Siege of Ulduar and "Last boss" is the achievement Descent Into Madness. Everything else is the actual first boss of the instance and actual last boss. Just wanted to point out that Ulduar saw similar lack of completion rates to what ToT is showing now.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    Haha in your world everyone must life in a palace with thousands of servants [aargh not since even those servants should own a palce!]... Sure! The possibility that Bob from africa shemes to conquer the whole world and succeeds exists. BUT does Bob even thinking of doing that? What hurdles could prevent anyone from being the superstar of this world? Damn yes, we are frakkin humans and no machines you can calculate with potentials. If players quit the game before even thinking of getting better than that's fine. As developer you can now ask "do I want money from dumb fucks who will put no effort in the game at all or not?" even though that's already ironic in itself, yes he might just creates the content for these people and becomes more successful...
    Nobody demands that you have some sociological insights about what's going on but you should at least get, that there are actually people here who function as proxy for a whole lot of other people who pay money for the game and might do that for not much longer resulting in a "do it or let it" of the developers.
    There are people who say "we are a great group of people who cleared raids in wotlk and tbc 10m but fail at mop raids - we broke up or braking up or still throw ourselves against the bosses...". These people once enjoyed wow with raids. They would pay money for a game where they can do this again in the SAME MANNER they did it in the past. So you are saying "screw them since they don't want to change!11" what makes no sense if you want money from those people...
    Even though GC seems to share your sight I still have not lost hope that there is someone in blizzard who remembers how the game got popular.
    Ok, I give up to both of you, you are right. People that don't clear normal raids are lazy dumb fucks, and I'm lucky enough to live surrounded by beings of light, both ingame and IRL.

    Be more respectful without generalizing everyone. -Azshira

    Edit: Er... I should have added a /sarcasm or something. I know mods have to read posts too fast, but you will have noticed reading the quote and my previous two posts what was going on.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-06-01 at 10:52 AM.

  16. #416
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    For Ulduar only 25 man data was available and individual boss kills were not. Therefore "First boss" is the achievement Siege of Ulduar and "Last boss" is the achievement Descent Into Madness. Everything else is the actual first boss of the instance and actual last boss. Just wanted to point out that Ulduar saw similar lack of completion rates to what ToT is showing now.
    I love that, and it certainly implies that both Arthas and Yogg-Saron were challenging in their day. It's a shame it doesn't show the statistics for where things start to drop off heavily (though, I expect it'd be at the Keepers).

    Also, I've added some more Ghostcrawler tweets from today.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 09:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Ok, I give up to both of you, you are right. People that don't clear normal raids are lazy dumb fucks, and I'm lucky enough to live surrounded by beings of light, both ingame and IRL.
    That made me laugh, I must admit.

    A bit of light-heartedness in a post that got too heavy, too fast, is very much appreciated.

  17. #417
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I love that, and it certainly implies that both Arthas and Yogg-Saron were challenging in their day. It's a shame it doesn't show the statistics for where things start to drop off heavily (though, I expect it'd be at the Keepers).

    Also, I've added some more Ghostcrawler tweets from today.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 09:08 PM ----------


    That made me laugh, I must admit.

    A bit of light-heartedness in a post that got too heavy, too fast, is very much appreciated.
    yea i read those tweets and tweeted him back. Traditional raiders pressed one button and didn't stand in fire. I don't see how he can square the statements made that the fights are more complex than in the past and have alot mroe going on but also say traditional raiders are fine at the same time. Guess what? Traditional raiders spend 20 hours a week in a raid but by and large only pressed one button and moved out of the ocassional patch of fire. Hyjal was the EASIEST raid ever made.

    He's just done the forum trick of moving the goal post but used the word "traditional" instead of "bad". Bad players can't do the content because well if they could do it they wouldn't be bad. "Traditional" players aren't struggling because we've moved the goal post of what we consider a "traditional" raider. ipso fuckoffo the raid is fine because we just moved the definition of who we think should be doing it...
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-31 at 08:15 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #418
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I love that, and it certainly implies that both Arthas and Yogg-Saron were challenging in their day. It's a shame it doesn't show the statistics for where things start to drop off heavily (though, I expect it'd be at the Keepers).

    Also, I've added some more Ghostcrawler tweets from today.
    If you look at Wowprogress, there is a pretty consistent drop of around 15% for each achievement, but the Keepers are the biggest drop. Antechamber -> Keepers is a 16% drop, compared to 15% from Siege to Antechamber and 11% from Keepers to Descent. The bigger thing that really got left out here is that Flame Leviathan was very much the Jin'rokh of its day, being a freebie boss everyone could kill before struggling on any of the next three that were available, but because there is no data for individual bosses, I can't represent it accurately.

  19. #419
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    ipso fuckoffo
    Signature material, right there.

    Who are you on Twitter? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to say publicly.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    If you look at Wowprogress, there is a pretty consistent drop of around 15% for each achievement, but the Keepers are the biggest drop. Antechamber -> Keepers is a 16% drop, compared to 15% from Siege to Antechamber and 11% from Keepers to Descent. The bigger thing that really got left out here is that Flame Leviathan was very much the Jin'rokh of its day, being a freebie boss everyone could kill before struggling on any of the next three that were available, but because there is no data for individual bosses, I can't represent it accurately.
    The next three after FL (Ignis, Razoscale, XT) were quite hard to start, but quickly got hefty nerfs that brought them down.

    Most 25 man raiding guilds failed to down YS before the tier ended.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

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