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  1. #421
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    If you look at Wowprogress, there is a pretty consistent drop of around 15% for each achievement, but the Keepers are the biggest drop. Antechamber -> Keepers is a 16% drop, compared to 15% from Siege to Antechamber and 11% from Keepers to Descent. The bigger thing that really got left out here is that Flame Leviathan was very much the Jin'rokh of its day, being a freebie boss everyone could kill before struggling on any of the next three that were available, but because there is no data for individual bosses, I can't represent it accurately.
    Mmm, that's a pain. Many might disagree, but I think Ignis could easily have been close to the Horridon of his day if he wasn't optional.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Mmm, that's a pain. Many might disagree, but I think Ignis could easily have been close to the Horridon of his day if he wasn't optional.
    He was quite hard initially, but got a substantial nerf.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  3. #423
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Furthermore if attempts really are low as he claims then he has really two options. Get rid of lfr or make bosses easier so people feel they are actually progressing and it's worthwhile to continue. The former is likely not on the table. The latter probably is. No matter how you square it ghostcrawler normals have to come down in difficulty. To bad so sad.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #424
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The next three after FL (Ignis, Razoscale, XT) were quite hard to start, but quickly got hefty nerfs that brought them down.

    Most 25 man raiding guilds failed to down YS before the tier ended.
    That's true. I don't remember exactly what nerfs there were, but I do recall there being quite a few and some of them being quite severe while the tier was current. Blizzard really doesn't seem to nerf things the same way anymore, even if they do occasionally nerf current content such as they did in ToT 10.



    I guess I should throw that out there too. T11, while not as extreme as T15 is currently, did drop around 20,000 guilds between Halfus/Magmaw and Nefarian/Al'akir. Keeping in mind that there are just fewer WoW players today than there were then, I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up seeing it look a little more like this one the tier meets its end as current.

    Also, when I made these I didn't realize you had specified 10 man normal and used composite data for Cata/MoP because it should represent more or less what 10 normal did in Wrath - All active guilds.
    Last edited by Nixx; 2013-05-31 at 08:53 PM.

  5. #425
    Lol'd at OP

    OP is 100% biased. People didn't give up because normal mode is hard, people gave up because of LFR, the numbers are small because people moved on to LFR and aren't bothering with other modes. If LFR is removed, people would do normal mode and you would have solid proof that normal mode is hard or not.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    Also, when I made these I didn't realize you had specified 10 man normal and used composite data for Cata/MoP because it should represent more or less what 10 normal did in Wrath - All active guilds.
    The other thing to watch out for is the numbers from Wrath include KR/TW. Current wowprogress numbers do not.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  7. #427
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    I did add in Asia for MoP. I don't remember if I did for Cata or if it's currently split.

    Worth noting the numbers from Asia are tiny. I think 1500 guilds killed Jin'rokh? Half of which killed Lei Shen.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Birkhoff View Post
    People didn't give up because normal mode is hard, people gave up because of LFR, the numbers are small because people moved on to LFR and aren't bothering with other modes. If LFR is removed, people would do normal mode and you would have solid proof that normal mode is hard or not.
    Pretty sure Cataclysm showed that your idea there is completely wrong. Even GC doesn't think LFR is to blame.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    He was quite hard initially, but got a substantial nerf.
    Horridon also got a substantial nerf, unless you'd like to argue 15% less HP on adds isn't significant.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8953693

    March 12
    Throne of Thunder
    Horridon
    Reduced the health of Farraki Wastewalkers, Gurubashi Venom priests, Drakkari Frozen Warlords, and Amani Warbears in the Horridon encounter by 15% for 10-player normal mode and 10% for 25-player Normal mode.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Horridon also got a substantial nerf, unless you'd like to argue 15% less HP on adds isn't significant.
    Evidently not significant enough.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Pretty sure Cataclysm showed that your idea there is completely wrong. Even GC doesn't think LFR is to blame.
    GC doesn't know jack shit

  12. #432
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    I'd be really surprised if LFR hurt organized guild raiding. I imagine the people that benefit most from it are the kind of people that spent all of Wrath pugging 100% of their progression.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    I'd be really surprised if LFR hurt organized guild raiding. I imagine the people that benefit most from it are the kind of people that spent all of Wrath pugging 100% of their progression.
    I'm benefiting from it, and I did 25 man guild raiding through most of Wrath. Lower end guilds that could function in Wrath have no place in the current scheme.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    I'd be really surprised if LFR hurt organized guild raiding. I imagine the people that benefit most from it are the kind of people that spent all of Wrath pugging 100% of their progression.
    LFR killed pugging

    It's not that LFR is hurting organized guild raiding, it's that it's making many players quit. Many guilds are disbanding because of LFR

  15. #435
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm benefiting from it, and I did 25 man guild raiding through most of Wrath. Lower end guilds that could function in Wrath have no place in the current scheme.
    Are we talking about them being killed by LFR though or by the increased difficulty of normal? It could be argued that they're one and the same, but I do think it's worth making the distinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birkhoff View Post
    LFR killed pugging

    It's not that LFR is hurting organized guild raiding, it's that it's making many players quit. Many guilds are disbanding because of LFR
    How? I mean I guess that's what I don't understand, is how LFR actually causes people to quit or a guild to die.

  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    Are we talking about them being killed by LFR though or by the increased difficulty of normal? It could be argued that they're one and the same, but I do think it's worth making the distinction.



    How? I mean I guess that's what I don't understand, is how LFR actually causes people to quit or a guild to die.
    Do you think that tmmrw if they removed lfr people would simple go back to beating their heads against the brick wall of difficulty or would they simple quit the game? Or better yet if LFR had never existed do you think normal raids would continue to exist at this difficulty and we wuld see such large raid tiers or do you think raid tiers would be smaller in favor of dungeons and normals would be easier to scope up more players?

    Hardcore raiders really ought to be all for lfr. If they knew what was good for them.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    Are we talking about them being killed by LFR though or by the increased difficulty of normal?
    The latter. LFR just determines if some of the players who were in the guild continue to play or unsub in disgust.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  18. #438
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Do you think that tmmrw if they removed lfr people would simple go back to beating their heads against the brick wall of difficulty or would they simple quit the game? Or better yet if LFR had never existed do you think normal raids would continue to exist at this difficulty and we wuld see such large raid tiers or do you think raid tiers would be smaller in favor of dungeons and normals would be easier to scope up more players?

    Hardcore raiders really ought to be all for lfr. If they knew what was good for them.
    In World of Accessibilitycraft (and I don't mean that as an insult), that is post BC WoW where Blizzard thinks everyone should be able to see the majority of content if they choose, I think Wrath is basically what you can and should expect from Blizzard if LFR either never existed or ceased to exist.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    In World of Accessibilitycraft (and I don't mean that as an insult), that is post BC WoW where Blizzard thinks everyone should be able to see the majority of content if they choose, I think Wrath is basically what you can and should expect from Blizzard if LFR either never existed or ceased to exist.
    Except that's not what we got in early Cataclysm, when LFR didn't exist.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  20. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Except that's not what we got in early Cataclysm, when LFR didn't exist.
    And it's not what we get in mists were normal modes are not very accessible in terms of difficulty at all.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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