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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    If we want this debate to develop, we need to move on from this. The "first boss = last boss" methodology has been objectively discredited more than enough times now, it's as dead as a doornail.
    Oh my, people can never accept defeat.

    Okay, here is one for you then, come up with a better methodology. Checking some instances stats 1.5 years after they have been released is simply not viable. Checking first - last boss shows the average difficulty of the instance.

    If you check the average % of guilds wiping on normal mode bosses. You get these results after 1 month of progress.

    from easiest to hardest (lower number = less % of guilds wiping on bosses = easier raid)

    T9 10: 5%
    T14: 7.27%
    T9 25: 7.38%
    T8: 7.4%
    T15: 7.93%
    T10 10: 8.34%
    T11: 8.5%
    T13: 8.57%
    T10 25: 8.67%
    T12: 10.62%
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #542
    I just do LFR instead now, because it doesn't feel rewarding to go through something 10x harder for 6 ilvls.

  3. #543
    Stood in the Fire rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, because you were looking at the first week.

    First week after expansion most players are still levelling. Hell, first month is more like it if you include gearing.

    i was lvl 90 within 2 days of release, and fully geared in blues and crafted epics after 4 days of release, so pray tell why it took most decent raiders a month to get lvled up and geared?, granted it took most of the other ppl in my guild the full week to get sorted so we were just about ready when blizz unlocked the instances after the 1 week break.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    If you're going to prove that normal mode difficulty is as hard as ever, you may have to put in some effort yourself. Because so far I haven't seen a single proof that it is true.
    That is because they have no proof. They are trying to win an argument with 0 data to back it up.

    As you say, anyone that raided both T11 and T14 will know that the T11 normals was far harder.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #545
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    How else do you intend on judging difficulty?
    Number of mechanics, need for 3rd party support to complete stuff, clearance rates for the whole tier before it is over, that sort of thing.
    My guild back in tier 11 had a lot of heroic kills within top 300, and generally had a much better guild structure and more skilled raiding roster. We killed normal mode Nefarian within 1 month of release. In MoP we cleared Mogu'shan Vaults within first week of release.

    I think everyone who raided in the same guild in tier 11 and tier 14 will tell you that tier 11 normal mode was harder.
    Except me and my guild. We almost got nefarian down before the nerf patch but had everything else deaded, cleared toes with time to spare.

    Of course, if you were raiding together for that length of time, you'd be better raiders yourselves by the time T14 launched as well, so it still doesn't mean much.
    If you're going to prove that normal mode difficulty is as hard as ever, you may have to put in some effort yourself. Because so far I haven't seen a single proof that it is true.
    Harder than ever. 75% failure rate to clear T14 before it was over. More one shot mechanics. Impossibility of raiding without using voip and add ons, complete lack of pugs on most servers, sky high DPS and HPS requirements for even the most simple of fights, more extraneous in game stuff like gems and reforging to get your head around.
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  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    While it was easier, I can't recall being able to ignore all non oneshot mechanics and zerging through shit.
    People only remember 30% nerfed ICC.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #547
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i was lvl 90 within 2 days of release, and fully geared in blues and crafted epics after 4 days of release, so pray tell why it took most decent raiders a month to get lvled up and geared?, granted it took most of the other ppl in my guild the full week to get sorted so we were just about ready when blizz unlocked the instances after the 1 week break.
    Grats, you've just taken your own personal experience, and then claimed everyone else was exactly the same as you. On the same basis - I was on holiday for one of the launches, therefore wow must have been like, completely dead with no one playing until I got back, right?

    You have won the "failed universality clause" prize. Take one, pass it on.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 11:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    People only remember 30% nerfed ICC.
    because that was the difficulty most people cleared it on, and is the true difficulty that should be looked at.
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  8. #548
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Except me and my guild. We almost got nefarian down before the nerf patch but had everything else deaded, cleared toes with time to spare.
    So you're saying that you couldn't kill Nefarian before 4.2, but you cleared all of tier 14 before the release of tier 15. How does that exclude your guild?

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Of course, if you were raiding together for that length of time, you'd be better raiders yourselves by the time T14 launched as well, so it still doesn't mean much.
    As I pointed out before: My guild was better structured and had an overall better skill level back in tier 11. I guess many guilds will be able to recognize this, as the recruitment pool was also much bigger back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Harder than ever. 75% failure rate to clear T14 before it was over. More one shot mechanics. Impossibility of raiding without using voip and add ons, complete lack of pugs on most servers, sky high DPS and HPS requirements for even the most simple of fights, more extraneous in game stuff like gems and reforging to get your head around.
    How is this any different from tier 11?

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Harder than ever. 75% failure rate to clear T14 before it was over. More one shot mechanics. Impossibility of raiding without using voip and add ons, complete lack of pugs on most servers, sky high DPS and HPS requirements for even the most simple of fights, more extraneous in game stuff like gems and reforging to get your head around.
    So wait. Recently the complete instance clear rate was irrelevant. Suddenly it isnt?

    Anyhow. Define one-shot mechanic. Something like not getting out of Gara'Jals spirit realm in time is obviously one-shot. How about Flanking Orders. That is survivable by all classes but can probably also kill someone from 100% to 0% if they are not prepared for it. Where do you draw the limit between one-shot and not. Also should falling of platforms count as one-shots?

    You have been disproven times and times again. You can raid without VOIP and addons. Both are tools, probably helps, but not impossible to raid without.
    Complete lack of pugs is because of 10/25 splitting causing less people raiding 25 man to do 10 man pugs and 10 man raiders doing 25 man pugs, people are gearing up through LFR instead of pugging, also the server populations are smaller, naturally calling for less pugs.

    DPS and HPS requirements is sky high on which "simple" fight?

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 11:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    because that was the difficulty most people cleared it on, and is the true difficulty that should be looked at.
    Okay, so if blizzard today would release a 50% nerf to T14, suddenly T14 would be the easiest raid tier ever? Good to know.

    Seems completely legit. Ofc you can not look at the nerfed raids. You gotta look at raids when they were current, since different raids recieves different nerfs.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-06-04 at 11:08 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #550
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So wait. Recently the complete instance clear rate was irrelevant. Suddenly it isnt?
    I did say clearance rate before the tier was over. yes, ICC and DS lasted a long time. But, they were designed to so that's fine.
    Anyhow. Define one-shot mechanic. Something like not getting out of Gara'Jals spirit realm in time is obviously one-shot. How about Flanking Orders. That is survivable by all classes but can probably also kill someone from 100% to 0% if they are not prepared for it. Where do you draw the limit between one-shot and not. Also should falling of platforms count as one-shots?
    Let me clarify, one shot is when you die and it means the raid will fail as a whole. Very, very few fights in modern wow will let you lose 1 or two people 40 seconds in and still complete them. Old wow had them in spades. There are ofc many one shot mechanics in their own right - lightning orbs on jinrokh, elegons floor, stone guard taunting order, wind bombs, the slice thing that nukes the whole raid you have to stack for etc etc they did sometimes exist in old wow, but usually on either bosses halfway into an instance or on optional bosses.
    You have been disproven times and times again. You can raid without VOIP and addons. Both are tools, probably helps, but not impossible to raid without.
    We are talking about average raids, average players. Not your hardcore buddies on the ost populated server in the known universe. One exception in this case does not disprove the rule.
    Complete lack of pugs is because of 10/25 splitting causing less people raiding 25 man to do 10 man pugs and 10 man raiders doing 25 man pugs, people are gearing up through LFR instead of pugging, also the server populations are smaller, naturally calling for less pugs.
    No, it's because the raids are pointlessly difficult and you know this.
    DPS and HPS requirements is sky high on which "simple" fight?
    All of them, relative to what the average player can put out.

    Okay, so if blizzard today would release a 50% nerf to T14, suddenly T14 would be the easiest raid tier ever? Good to know.
    No, because it's no longer current.
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  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, it's because the raids are pointlessly difficult and you know this. .
    Yeah, that is why people are pugging 14/14 heroic every week now with openraid...

    You have a very different opinion of what is one-shot mechanics from what I have, but okay.

    Do you have any stats to back up your claim that current raid has more one-shot mechanics? Actual number of one-shot mechanics from previous raids? Until you come up with your stats you just have an empty claim. It is upon you to prove yourself right, not us you prove you wrong.

    +Can we give up this bullshit that you could 8 man bosses before but now you need 11 people.

    Enrage timers is pretty much non-existant in MoP. Heck, patchwerk in naxxramas required more dps from the average player than current raids needs. If you were good enough to 8-9 man bosses in WotLK/Cata, then you are good enough to 8-9 man bosses in MoP.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-06-04 at 11:25 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #552
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah, that is why people are pugging 14/14 heroic every week now with openraid...
    So what? That some people somewhere are doign that changes nothing as far as what the average raider can be doing. please, just stop making this argument or I will start saying that raids need to be clearable by people who can't even log in, because they occupy the same place on the bell curve.
    You have a very different opinion of what is one-shot mechanics from what I have, but okay.

    Do you have any stats to back up your claim that current raid has more one-shot mechanics? Actual number of one-shot mechanics from previous raids? Until you come up with your stats you just have an empty claim. It is upon you to prove yourself right, not us you prove you wrong.
    I don't actually, it is however on the forum somewhere.
    +Can we give up this bullshit that you could 8 man bosses before but now you need 11 people.
    No. Not likely to give up true stuff, sorry.
    Enrage timers is pretty much non-existant in MoP. Heck, patchwerk in naxxramas required more dps from the average player than current raids needs. If you were good enough to 8-9 man bosses in WotLK/Cata, then you are good enough to 8-9 man bosses in MoP.
    if ofc has moved. Which is the bit you don't want to hear about.

    it's odd, you simulataneously say you can't find good players AND ALSO at one and the same time claim that the game hasn't got harder for the playerbase.

    Who has it got easier for? the fairies at the bottom of the garden?
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  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I don't actually, it is however on the forum somewhere.
    You mean this thread
    http://www.restokin.com/2013/04/the-...tion-overload/
    that ignores a large part of the boss abilities and is completely biased?

    Also if it was that thread, it says nothing about one-shot mechanics. It just counts every mechanic available in the dungeon journal as a mechanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No. Not likely to give up true stuff, sorry.
    Sigh. Beyond words.

    The fact that you deny that you can kill MoP bosses with less than 10 people is hillarious.

    Guess what, you could 9 man bosses in WotLK, you could 9 man bosses in Cata, you could 9 man bosses in MoP. The only raid tier that actually involved a boss that was easier to 9 man than 10 man is MoP, which is stone guards heroic. Several guilds chose to 9 man that boss because it was easier than 10 manning it.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #554
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Oh my, people can never accept defeat.
    You haven't contested a single point of mine in the last two pages; instead, you've repeated diatribes like the above, then repeated what you've already said and has already been discounted for reasons you also, for some reason, haven't contested.

    I'll let you answer why that is.

    Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Okay, here is one for you then, come up with a better methodology. Checking some instances stats 1.5 years after they have been released is simply not viable. Checking first - last boss shows the average difficulty of the instance.
    First:

    We. Are. Talking. About. Mists. Of. Pandaria.

    How many times must I repeat this before you even acknowledge it? Your deliberate baiting, repetition and ignoring of counter arguments is becoming old. Why are you ignoring the Mists drop off?

    Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

    Second:

    The last boss does NOT show the average difficulty of the instance. We know this, because it does NOT show where people gave up. We DO know that people are giving up, because the drop since Mists launched is against all previous trends that we've seen, and is out of kilter with the subscription drop. Why are you ignoring this?

    Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You get these results after 1 month of progress.
    You keep using the one-month metric, and it's hopelessly flawed for reasons already explained (multiple times) to you. Why do you keep ignoring them?

    Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

    So, to summarise Firefly, these are the questions I want you to answer or admit you don't have an answer to them:

    1) My recent commentary about the drop in normal raiders, in Mists of Pandaria alone, is uncontested. Why?
    2) You are prattling about "1.5 years since release", when I'm not. Why?
    3) You are claiming that the last boss provides an average difficulty of an instance when it doesn't. Why?
    4) You keep using the one-month metric, even though it's almost irrelevant. Why?

    Seriously, cut the shit. You're now trying to choke all debate in what I deem to be an important topic by continuously posting irrelevant data, and ignoring everyone who's correcting you on it. You're also baiting other posters while doing so, in order to present some semblance of authority on a topic you're grossly misunderstanding.

    It's starting to annoy me.

    Either answer the questions above and take them into account in any future commentary, or leave the thread to people who want to discuss why normal raiders are ditching so quickly from T14 to T15, and what can be done about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Enrage timers is pretty much non-existant in MoP. Heck, patchwerk in naxxramas required more dps from the average player than current raids needs. If you were good enough to 8-9 man bosses in WotLK/Cata, then you are good enough to 8-9 man bosses in MoP.
    This is true, but it's entirely intentional. It's been stated a few times that they prefer to have your inability to execute the fight mechanics blocking your progress rather than lack of gear. The only exceptions this tier were Garalon and to some degree Elegon (who became quite a bit harder if you couldn't down him to certain percentages before a certain number of adds spawned). Sha was also gear check of sorts, but most had got their gear by then so it wasn't so bad.

    Difficulty from my perspective.

    7: Very easy. First week clear. 25 man had so much room for error that it was actually easier than 10 man. Puggable.
    8: Hard. We didn't down YS until ToC had come out. I don't think I ever saw a pug that did anything past the first few bosses.
    9: Every boss was killed in a few attempts. The weekly limit didn't help either. I don't think there was a single guild who wasn't trying heroic modes the day the last boss came out (only to discover a bullshit RNG-fest within). 10 man was being pugged from the start.
    10: Initially hard. Although this was mostly down to LK, and a number of people being unable to get the fight right. 10 man became fully puggable later on.

    11: We moved to 10 man at this point. This tier was fairly hard, and we took a while to clear it. We ditched our old guild, and made a lot faster progress later on.
    12: This was a nicely paced tier. We got a new boss every week or so, and finally got Rag down a week before the nerfs. After that we made similar progress on the heroics, up to 6/7. The nerf was controversial, but it worked out very well for us in terms of our enjoyment.
    13: Way too easy. Cleared it on the second week, and most of that was figuring out the best platform order for Madness.

    14: Hard. We got stuck on a couple of bosses for quite some time.
    15: Challenging. Some nice fights, with an emphasis on doing things right, rather than perfect rotations.

    Completion time.

    Longest - 10 > 8 > 14 > 11 > 15 > 12 > 13 > 7 > 9 - Shortest

  16. #556
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You mean this thread
    http://www.restokin.com/2013/04/the-...tion-overload/
    that ignores a large part of the boss abilities and is completely biased?

    Also if it was that thread, it says nothing about one-shot mechanics. It just counts every mechanic available in the dungeon journal as a mechanic.
    Doesn't look like a forum line to me.


    Sigh. Beyond words.

    The fact that you deny that you can kill MoP bosses with less than 10 people is hillarious.

    Guess what, you could 9 man bosses in WotLK, you could 9 man bosses in Cata, you could 9 man bosses in MoP. The only raid tier that actually involved a boss that was easier to 9 man than 10 man is MoP, which is stone guards heroic. Several guilds chose to 9 man that boss because it was easier than 10 manning it.
    ok, so lets go back this question -

    You say that the playerbase is now unable to raid properly, but you also say that raids are easier. They can't both be true.

    Pick one.
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  17. #557
    My guild has been stuck on Horridon for like 8/9 weeks now. This week we have pretty much thrown in the towel and have given up. We gave horridon 8 week of tries but could never get him. This week no raid scheduled and we are down two more raiders. Don't do LFR. Only want to run normal. Oh well my sub runs out in 2 weeks anyway. Before MoP my guild could historically clear 95% of all normal content. This expansion has pretty much killed the guild.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    You haven't contested a single point of mine in the last two pages; instead, you've repeated diatribes like the above, then repeated what you've already said and has already been discounted for reasons you also, for some reason, haven't contested.

    I'll let you answer why that is.

    Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.
    Provide a question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    First:

    We. Are. Talking. About. Mists. Of. Pandaria.

    How many times must I repeat this before you even acknowledge it? Your deliberate baiting, repetition and ignoring of counter arguments is becoming old. Why are you ignoring the Mists drop off?

    Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.
    Why did you OP involve tiers other than MoP then? Obviously we are talking about other tiers aswell. Also you can not discuss MoP without taking other tiers into account, you have to compare MoP with something. I am not ignoring the MoP drop off. I am putting the blame on different sources than you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Second:

    The last boss does NOT show the average difficulty of the instance. We know this, because it does NOT show where people gave up. We DO know that people are giving up, because the drop since Mists launched is against all previous trends that we've seen, and is out of kilter with the subscription drop. Why are you ignoring this?

    Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.
    I have not been checking the last boss only. I have been checking the difference between the first and the last boss. That shows how many people gave up on the way to the last boss, and how many people are still stuck trying to reach it. That shows the instance as a whole. If 50% of the guilds get stuck on boss 4, well then that shows up on that data, as those guilds have killed the first boss, but not the last boss. Therefor they show up as a guild that killed the last boss.

    So yeah, checking last boss/first boss gives an idea of the instance as a whole. If 20% of the guilds got stuck on second boss and 30% of the guilds got stuck to the fifth boss, than naturall that is 50% of the guilds that did not kill the final boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    You keep using the one-month metric, and it's hopelessly flawed for reasons already explained (multiple times) to you. Why do you keep ignoring them?

    Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.
    I never claimed it to be perfect. I asked for what could be a better metric. Using the current data straight from WoWprogress like you did in the OP is beyond insane. Anyone with any experience in mathematical data would tell you that.

    We could check 2 months if that makes you more comfortable? I feel like 1 month contains the least corrupt data, the most even playing field.
    1 month is more than enough time for any guild to kill the first boss of a given instance. As long as a guild kills the first boss, the rest of their progress is irrelevant. Since then it would show up on that data if 80% of the guilds are stuck on 1/12.

    Do you have any reason to use any other metric? And for what reasons is that metric superior? Please answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Seriously, cut the shit. You're now trying to choke all debate in what I deem to be an important topic by continuously posting irrelevant data, and ignoring everyone who's correcting you on it. You're also baiting other posters while doing so, in order to present some semblance of authority on a topic you're grossly misunderstanding.

    It's starting to annoy me.

    Either answer the questions above and take them into account in any future commentary, or leave the thread to people who want to discuss why normal raiders are ditching so quickly from T14 to T15, and what can be done about it.
    So wait? Calling out your data with more relevant data (not saying it is the most relevant but far more relevant than any data you provided yourself). Asking people to have data backing up their claim, i.e. Injin saying there are more one shot mechanics than ever with 0 data to back it up with.

    I mean, geez. You can not even back your own points up. I can. This is getting old.

    The reason that I have to keep repeating myself, is that you keep ignoring the facts that completion rate is higher than ever before and less % of guilds are getting stuck on bosses in average than ever before. You have not yet answered that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    ok, so lets go back this question -

    You say that the playerbase is now unable to raid properly, but you also say that raids are easier. They can't both be true.

    Pick one.
    Why not? They are not mutually exclusive.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-06-04 at 12:15 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #559
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post

    Why not? They are not mutually exclusive.
    Oh good, you just agreed that your use of clearance rates is useless.

    Cheers.
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  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Oh good, you just agreed that your use of clearance rates is useless.

    Cheers.
    Fail to see how I did. You are getting sad now.

    I am starting to understand why people say
    "Dont go to the R&D forum, the trolls there will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience".

    Still waiting for your data to show that there are more oneshot mechanics than ever.

    You make claims with 0 data to back it up with. Come back when you got something real to say.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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