Page 29 of 38 FirstFirst ...
19
27
28
29
30
31
... LastLast
  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I understand, if we avoid the one shot mechanics, they don't one shot you. lol

    jesus H christ.

    t14 ofc is even worse.
    What things 1 shot you in t14?

    Honestly you're clutching at straws. There are in total 3 (2 from Durumu, 1 from Council as I'll give you that) 1 shot mechanics in ToT. Durumu is also regarded as one of the most fun fights in the instance. Perhaps my experience is a lot better than yours though because the people I play with aren't incapable of using their eyes? I'm not too sure. In our alt raid I scumbag DPSd on my Rogue on Tortos. I never moved out of Rockfall, never Feinted Quake Stomp and with 516 ilvl I didn't even die: Cheat Death procced twice but that's about it. I didn't actually die.

  2. #562
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Some of the results, tier to tier, are interesting; particularly the jumps in Cataclysm and, particularly, the jump from Cataclysm to MoP.

    The concentration is on MoP, however, because it’s the data set with the least number of variables.
    I would beg to differ. You are comparing current tier with previous tier. Comparing a current tier with a previous tier will always have the biggest variable of all tiers. You need to compare current tiers with stats from previous tier when they were current.

    Do you honestly believe that comparing a tier that is not even done yet with a tier that has been our 3x longer and has been nerfed several time is a legit process?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    “Stuck” and “gave up” are two entirely different things. The evidence clearly shows that guilds are giving up on the way to T15, and this is in direct contradiction to all prior trends.
    THAT is why your first to last comparison is irrelevant. We know guilds are giving up, and your choice of data isn’t highlighting where.
    We know guilds don’t give up if they can’t kill the final boss. We know that, because guilds that start a tier have (until MoP) tended to start the next one.
    I am sorry, but where is the proof that guilds are giving up? There is just no such proof. If guilds were giving up in such a huge number as you claim, then you would see a 50% drop off in raids participating. The current dropoff from T14 to T15 was lower than 10%. Which seems to be quite on-par with sub drops and the fact that the new expansion rush is over. In T14 everyone wanted to try the new expansion, now a lot of people have disappeared. This has been stated by GC to happen every expansion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    It’s obviously relevant – depending on the size of a tier, there might be multiple places where a guild get stuck, but they don’t give up. Your data doesn’t capture where guilds are giving up.
    Yes, normal modes. It count for the entirety of normal modes. This is what this discussion is all about isnt it? That normal modes are too hard? Or did I miss the discussion topic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    The main reason for using the T14 to T15 comparison is because it removes most of the variables that plague other tier to tier comparisons.
    Your data, for the simple reasons listed in this sole post, is less relevant than mine; objectively so because you’re drawing conclusions from data that has significantly more variables than mine.
    You cant possibly say that my data has more variables than yours.
    Yours have nerfs, tier duration, expansion duration, expansion item level growth, reasons to go back to clear old content such as gearing up, achievements.
    That is far more variables than mine have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    But it’s at this point, over the last couple of pages, where you’ve stopped contributing to the thread, and simply tried to close it with boorish reassertions of what has already been logically dismissed, while ignoring anything that’s contrary to your belief. Oftentimes, completely ignoring it and failing to even acknowledge that some of it was ever said.

    You know, full well, that was I’m saying is meted out by the evidence. And repeating what I said, just to look clever, is infantile.
    I have not ignored anything. I would never ignore anything that is contrary to my beliefs. I have just failed to see a compelling enough argument to consider as none of you got any weight behind what you say. You can stand there and make assumptions, theories, anecdotal experiences, however you got nothing to back up your claim with. If you prove yourself right, I have no problem with that. But right now the only thing you can do is attempt to bash me since you realised you cant fight for your own cause.

    Good to see that atleast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    It’s not been ignored, it’s been dismissed. It’s not relevant because:

    a) It doesn’t show where guilds are giving up and we know they are.
    b) Percentages getting stuck isn’t relevant when only better guilds are trying in the first place.

    You keep repeating it, without realising that your assessment is doomed to failure unless you can reliably account for the above (among other criticisms).

    You can’t.

    Therefore, it’s been dismissed.
    In the same matter, everything you said has been dismissed because you can not account for

    1. Tier duration
    2. Nerfs
    3. Gear inflation
    4. Expansion duration
    5. 10/25 split causing fewer pugs and fewer experienced pugs
    6. Server population declining
    7. Reasons to go back to clear old content

    I am not claiming any method to be perfect, but my method got far less variables than yours.
    Until you come up with a better method, anything you say is completely irrelevant.

  3. #563
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    What things 1 shot you in t14?
    lol
    Honestly you're clutching at straws. There are in total 3 (2 from Durumu, 1 from Council as I'll give you that) 1 shot mechanics in ToT. Durumu is also regarded as one of the most fun fights in the instance. Perhaps my experience is a lot better than yours though because the people I play with aren't incapable of using their eyes? I'm not too sure. In our alt raid I scumbag DPSd on my Rogue on Tortos. I never moved out of Rockfall, never Feinted Quake Stomp and with 516 ilvl I didn't even die: Cheat Death procced twice but that's about it. I didn't actually die.
    there are three one shot mechanics on jinrokh alone!

    No more responses to you, silly man. You don't deserve them.

  4. #564
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    there are three one shot mechanics on jinrokh alone!

    No more responses to you, silly man. You don't deserve them.
    Nothing on Jin'rokh one shots you. The orbs are close though, so could almost be considered 1.

    You have been proven wrong. Move on.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    lol

    there are three one shot mechanics on jinrokh alone!

    No more responses to you, silly man. You don't deserve them.
    ... No?

    From the dungeon journal:

    Focused Lightning does 175k damage. It'll do 40% more damage in Conductive Waters for a total of 245k damage.
    Implosion does 250k damage. It'll do 40% more damage in Conductive Waters for a total of 350k damage.

    I fail to see how either of these 1 shot you considering that my 516 Rogue has 440k hp unbuffed, and buffed will most likely be 500k~ hp.

  6. #566
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Nothing on Jin'rokh one shots you. The orbs are close though, so could almost be considered 1.

    You have been proven wrong. Move on.
    One of the moves will kill the whole raid!

    lol

  7. #567
    Deleted
    I dont think there is any sense trying to argue with him. I tried. It is impossible. Talk about the stubborn donkey from family guy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 01:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    One of the moves will kill the whole raid!

    lol
    Had it explode several times without killing the raid. It is bad, but not an instant raid killer.
    Still, I give you that. Orbs could "almost" be considered a raid wiper.

    Though, where is your proof that this is more common in T14/T15 than ever before.

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    One of the moves will kill the whole raid!

    lol
    Exploding a Focused Lightning in the electrified waters will deal 750k damage to everyone in the raid. I fail to see why someone would be running towards electrified waters though? Has this actually happened to you because I don't see how people could be that stupid.

  9. #569
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Exploding a Focused Lightning in the electrified waters will deal 750k damage to everyone in the raid. I fail to see why someone would be running towards electrified waters though? Has this actually happened to you because I don't see how people could be that stupid.
    Yes, like I said if you ignore all the one shot mechanics, there aren't any.

    However, if you look at all the one shot mechanics, there are loads. The fact that you consider them "easy" to avoid in no way shape or form removes them from the game or makes them easy for anyone else.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, like I said if you ignore all the one shot mechanics, there aren't any.

    However, if you look at all the one shot mechanics, there are loads. The fact that you consider them "easy" to avoid in no way shape or form removes them from the game or makes them easy for anyone else.
    Do you raid with people who are blind? I'm not being mean here I'm just curious. There was a British army soldier who was blind and playing WoW in Dragon Soul and he managed to raid, and do competent DPS, totally fine. Perhaps the real reasoning is that (and this may hurt to say) your raid is actually really unskilled compared to the average player?

  11. #571
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Do you raid with people who are blind? I'm not being mean here I'm just curious. There was a British army soldier who was blind and playing WoW in Dragon Soul and he managed to raid, and do competent DPS, totally fine. Perhaps the real reasoning is that (and this may hurt to say) your raid is actually really unskilled compared to the average player?
    Who the fuck said I was talking about MY raid? lol

    Just because you can't see past your own nose, doesn't mean everyone else suffers from the same cognitive failing, for fucks sake!

  12. #572
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, like I said if you ignore all the one shot mechanics, there aren't any.
    And if you ignore all mechanics in WotLK and Cata, then MoP got more mechanics...

    You cant just twist the stats into your favor. Still waiting for any relevant statistics from you to say that there are more one-shot mechanics now than before.

  13. #573
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    And if you ignore all mechanics in WotLK and Cata, then MoP got more mechanics...

    You cant just twist the stats into your favor. Still waiting for any relevant statistics from you to say that there are more one-shot mechanics now than before.
    Why are you waiting? I already told you i won't do any such thing for you because I think you will ignore them even if I did.

  14. #574
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Why are you waiting? I already told you i won't do any such thing for you because I think you will ignore them even if I did.
    The burden of proof is not on my end. You made the statement, not me.

    Thanks. Now we can completely dismiss that ToT raids got more one-shot mechanics then ever before until something else has been proven.

    You never stopped to think that why people ignore your opinion is that your opinion... is your opinion... You got nothing to back it up with.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The burden of proof is not on my end. You made the statement, not me.

    Thanks. Now we can completely dismiss that ToT raids got more one-shot mechanics then ever before until something else has been proven.

    You never stopped to think that why people ignore your opinion is that your opinion... is your opinion... You got nothing to back it up with.
    In all fainess its not ppl that ignore his opnion its you who does. In fact thats something you do consistently on every thread, you basicaly ignore ppls opinion and push your agenda, just my 2 cents.

    Not sure if there are more 1 shot mechanincs in MoP than other xpacs (there probably is, you get a boss like durumu and you have 4 on him alone) but theres surely more going on overall.

  16. #576
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    In all fainess its not ppl that ignore his opnion its you who does. In fact thats something you do consistently on every thread, you basicaly ignore ppls opinion and push your agenda, just my 2 cents.
    Because he does not back up his claim with anything.

    When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. "If this responsibility or burden of proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed". This burden does not necessarily require a mathematical or strictly logical proof, although many strong arguments do rise to this level (such as in logical syllogisms). Rather, the evidential standard required for a given claim is determined by convention or community standards, with regard to the context of the claim in question.


    When he comes with a reasonable proof to back up his claim, I will gladly agree with him.

    And to be completely honest, is that no exactly what both Injin and Zellviren is doing aswell? They ignore anyone who does not share their opinion and try to bash them down. The difference is that I come with data to back up what I claim, they do not.

    There is a difference to blindly ignore someones opinion, or disagree with that opinion with logical conclusions.

    If some argument is to hard for them to answer, they ignore it. I responded to everything they said.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-06-04 at 01:30 PM.

  17. #577
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    In all fainess its not ppl that ignore his opnion its you who does. In fact thats something you do consistently on every thread, you basicaly ignore ppls opinion and push your agenda, just my 2 cents.

    Not sure if there are more 1 shot mechanincs in MoP than other xpacs (there probably is, you get a boss like durumu and you have 4 on him alone) but theres surely more going on overall.
    There is a slight trend in the data pointing out the fact that Icc-no buff and tier 11 (both normal) was in fact harder than ToT normal. For example look at my post #533 and you will see an overwhelming difference in the normal mode clear rate during the first week.
    Injin is just blatantly dismissing these points while still claiming that normal mode difficulty is harder now than beforehand.

    In my opinion it isnt because of the difficulty that there is a low normal mode attendancy rate. I know plenty of people who could be raiding heroic modes if they wanted to, but they are just fine doing 1 clear of LFR and then not playing for the rest of the tier.

  18. #578
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Motonui
    Posts
    7,552
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The first rule of Tautology Club is the first rule of Tautology Club.
    I had a good laugh about that.

    All I'll say about one-shot mechanics is that more people seem to be dying than ever before, and we have an interested corollary to this in the fact that (since Cataclysm) Blizzard have increased the number of classes that can resurrect a player in combat. There's undoubtedly a reason for that, though I'm sure the counter argument will be something along the lines of "bring the player, not the class".

    Besides, I think "threatening mechanic" is a better way of viewing the subject than "one-shot mechanic".

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I would beg to differ. You are comparing current tier with previous tier. Comparing a current tier with a previous tier will always have the biggest variable of all tiers. You need to compare current tiers with stats from previous tier when they were current.
    We did a bit of that with the look from tier 11 to tier 12 (where there were view variables) and the comparison to MoP. There are far less variables in that than using a model that doesn’t account for any of the things mentioned to you, multiple times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Do you honestly believe that comparing a tier that is not even done yet with a tier that has been our 3x longer and has been nerfed several time is a legit process?
    Can you build me a TARDIS so I can compare it when T15 is complete?

    No?

    Then let’s go with what we have for now, call the trends on what they are, and see who makes it into the Siege of Orgrimmar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I am sorry, but where is the proof that guilds are giving up? There is just no such proof. If guilds were giving up in such a huge number as you claim, then you would see a 50% drop off in raids participating. The current dropoff from T14 to T15 was lower than 10%. Which seems to be quite on-par with sub drops and the fact that the new expansion rush is over. In T14 everyone wanted to try the new expansion, now a lot of people have disappeared. This has been stated by GC to happen every expansion.
    You literally can’t be serious with this comment.

    You can’t be.

    The proof that guilds are giving up is absolutely fucking overwhelming; SURELY you can see this? The number of guilds making it into T15, from those starting in T14, is dramatically smaller – the percentage is already posted.

    Why are you arguing about this?

    Seriously?

    Everyone can see it’s happening, except you. Where did this “lower than 10% drop” come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yes, normal modes. It count for the entirety of normal modes. This is what this discussion is all about isnt it? That normal modes are too hard? Or did I miss the discussion topic?
    Wait, you’ve been arguing that guilds aren’t giving up then telling me the place they’re giving up is… Normal modes?

    What?

    I’d re-read the section you’ve quoted and get a grip of the context before responding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You cant possibly say that my data has more variables than yours.
    Yours have nerfs, tier duration, expansion duration, expansion item level growth, reasons to go back to clear old content such as gearing up, achievements.
    That is far more variables than mine have.
    Find a mathematician who knows something about the topic, and ask them what they think.

    Looking at the ditch of guilds in MoP has the least variables by default. The only other relevant comparison is probably tier 11 to tier 12 (for the outlier), and this is for the following reasons:

    1) The playerbase behaviour is likely to be similar.
    2) The content length (when T15 is complete) will likely be similar.
    3) The gear catch-up mechanics were similar (very few).
    4) LFR status was similar (either both had, or both didn’t have).
    5) All raids spoken about have similar lockouts.

    Now, look at the data you’re presenting. Essentially, change every “similar” to “different” and you’re there.

    Between T11 and T12, guilds that didn’t complete final bosses still made it to the next tier; in general, they didn’t give up. Between T14 and T15, guilds that didn’t complete the final bosses DID NOT make it to the next tier. The only explanation is that they’ve given up, because no other explanation is rational. I’ve no doubt the numbers will go up by the time T15 finishes, but do we honestly think it’ll go up by a lot?

    Tell you what.

    Do the counts I’ve done, but filter the results to show the same amount of time done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I have not ignored anything. I would never ignore anything that is contrary to my beliefs. I have just failed to see a compelling enough argument to consider as none of you got any weight behind what you say.
    You’ve consistently ignored perfectly compelling arguments, particularly over the last two pages, and simply repeated previous diatribes while proclaiming “nobody can prove me wrong”. It’s just flat denial. This entire thread started on an assumption, was proven by the evidence, and hopes to find a reasonable solution.

    The difference between you and I is that I’ve moved the discussion on from my original point, to a stage where the numbers are more meaningful. You’ve stuck to your dogmatic approach because you don’t like where the results take you, and have tried your hardest to make sure nobody can move on with the discussion and see that what you’re saying is deeply, deeply flawed.

    I’m sorry, but that’s been recognised. You were rumbled a while ago.

    Now, it’s just repetition and immature barbs such as these:

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    But right now the only thing you can do is attempt to bash me since you realised you cant fight for your own cause.

    Good to see that atleast.
    I’m sorry, but this is a troll tactic. Try to obscure the point as best you can, ignore further commentary, and drag the debate to the only logical standpoint where you might be right while ignoring all other forms of context or logic.

    I’ve seen it all before. The reason I’ve been so extraordinarily patient with you is because this subject matters to me, I take personal responsibility for my own threads, and I’d guess I’m a little older and more mature than you are.

    Take a look at the other posters who’ve disagreed with either my premises or conclusions. They’ve been able to maintain their disagreement without resorting to personal slights, random impudence, and the insistence that they must be right and everyone must be wrong. They’ve accepted that while their interpretation of the data is imperfect (as is mine), there are more ways than one to look at it and that other assertions could very well be common. If an impasse has been reached, they’ve moved on.

    You are the ONLY person that has shown an inability to behave like this. You’re the ONLY person that is insistent that nobody, except them, can possibly be right. And you’re the ONLY person that’s dismissing compelling evidence because you don’t like where it logically leads.

    I’m not a statistician, but I’m educated and bright. Unfortunately, I’m not gifted enough to know why you feel the need to put everyone through this crusade of yours.

    Whatever caused it, I’m very sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I dont think there is any sense trying to argue with him. I tried. It is impossible. Talk about the stubborn donkey from family guy.
    Honestly; what's this for? What do you think this behaviour proves? What type of image of you do you think it creates?

  19. #579
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    There is a slight trend in the data pointing out the fact that Icc-no buff and tier 11 (both normal) was in fact harder than ToT normal. For example look at my post #533 and you will see an overwhelming difference in the normal mode clear rate during the first week.
    Injin is just blatantly dismissing these points while still claiming that normal mode difficulty is harder now than beforehand.

    In my opinion it isnt because of the difficulty that there is a low normal mode attendancy rate. I know plenty of people who could be raiding heroic modes if they wanted to, but they are just fine doing 1 clear of LFR and then not playing for the rest of the tier.
    If you go even further and check 1 month / 2 months into the tier, there is not just a slight trend, there is an undeniable trend.
    Yet they blatantly dismiss these as they do not fit into their view of the world. Suddenly old raids become irrelevant when they realise the data do not support their own claims, even though they themselves have been comparing with old raids since page 1.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 01:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Everyone can see it’s happening, except you. Where did this “lower than 10% drop” come from?
    24000 guilds killed stone guards first month
    22000 guilds killed jin'rokh first month

    I really cant be arsed to answer anything else of your post since it is all irrelevant. You have 0 arguments left, so any more argumentation is pointless.
    Just dancing around in circles atm.

    Until 6.0 your method of data collection is completely, 100%, useless.

    Come back when 6.0 hit and post the same data again.

    Or come back with something relevant. At the moment you are just pointlessly wasting my time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 01:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I’m sorry, but this is a troll tactic. Try to obscure the point as best you can, ignore further commentary, and drag the debate to the only logical standpoint where you might be right while ignoring all other forms of context or logic.

    You do realise you are the one doing this? I am asking you to provide data and stop making attempts to ignore valid opinions that counter your claim.
    Please, back up your own claim. I am asking you, come with something convincing. Right now you are trying to debunk other people instead of proving your own standpoint. That is standard proof that you know your own standpoint is to weak to defend it, so you attempt to mindlessly attack other peoples standpoints instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I’d guess I’m a little older and more mature than you are.

    I’m not a statistician, but I’m educated and bright. Unfortunately, I’m not gifted enough to know why you feel the need to put everyone through this crusade of yours.

    Whatever caused it, I’m very sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Honestly; what's this for? What do you think this behaviour proves? What type of image of you do you think it creates?
    Oh the irony.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-06-04 at 01:43 PM.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I had a good laugh about that.
    Stolen shamelessly from xkcd.

    http://xkcd.com/703/
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •