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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    The OP (hai!) realises that just fine.

    What I'm trying to say with the Icecrown and Dragon Soul models is that players aren't necessarily giving up prior to nerfs. If anything, they fundamentally prove that the gradual nerf system is largely successful because it shoots people over the smaller humps at a rate that doesn't trivialize what they're doing.

    The meat and drink of my post is to point out that players are flat out giving up on Mists of Pandaria raids. Not waiting for nerfs, not getting better, not mindlessly complaining, just giving up.

    This is inherently bad for the game, and I think we need to highlight:

    a) That it's happening.
    b) That catering all content to a tiny percentage at the top of the game is bad practice.
    You don't have any means of showing whether players gave up prior to the nerfs, since your data doesn't show pre-nerf progress and post-nerf progress. Your data doesn't take into consideration the extreme length of the tiers. Your data does not take the large number of alts clearing those raids into consideration. Your data doesn't consider T7-9 or T11-12, which are much more comparable to today's tier. Your data doesn't consider 10/25 for ICC. Are you double counting some who cleared both. Your data does not consider LFR.

    Having an LFR at all is the exact opposite of catering to the tiny percentage at the top of the game.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 05:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post

    This sentence doesn't make any sense. How can the game have high standing for something hardly anyone knows about?
    They knew about it, they didn't do it. Key difference. It's like me with pet battles. I know about them, but don't participate in them.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I'm starting to side with Osmeric inasmuch as this problem has always existed with raiders, but new ones came through to replace the ones that left.
    And also, that mediocre players require a certain amount of experience to realize they are mediocre, to properly calibrate what level of content they can and cannot do. New MMO players coming into Vanilla or BC may not have fully realized their possibility of raiding in BC was mostly illusory.

    Nowadays, more players have a good handle on how good they are (or are willing to become), so the game designers no longer have the latitude their self-ignorance had provided.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  3. #83
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post

    Having an LFR at all is the exact opposite of catering to the tiny percentage at the top of the game.
    I suspect that LFR is there to continue the production of raids. The game in general might be better off with just more 5 mans.
    They knew about it, they didn't do it. Key difference. It's like me with pet battles. I know about them, but don't participate in them.
    How would anyone know about something they never did? Makes no sense.
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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    How would anyone know about something they never did? Makes no sense.
    Because oddly enough people do tend to learn about things even without doing it (it's like we can learn by observation).
    I believe that i've participated once in Rated BG and that was enough for me to learn that i don't really want to participate in it.
    (Non wow example) I know about dota2, i can discuss dota 2, i can understand what's going on in dota2. But i've never played it and never will.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post

    How would anyone know about something they never did? Makes no sense.
    I haven't done the heroic raids this tier. Does that mean I don't know about them? I don't know the fight mechanics? I don't understand that players like them and want to run them?

    I'm not participating in them at the moment, but I don't know about them? I can't read? I can't watch videos? I mean, really, knowing that raiding exists and what the fights are/how they work does not mean that people did it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 06:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    And also, that mediocre players require a certain amount of experience to realize they are mediocre, to properly calibrate what level of content they can and cannot do. New MMO players coming into Vanilla or BC may not have fully realized their possibility of raiding in BC was mostly illusory.

    Nowadays, more players have a good handle on how good they are (or are willing to become), so the game designers no longer have the latitude their self-ignorance had provided.
    I'll be honest, I have no idea what you're saying.

    "new players...may not have fully realized their possibility of raiding in BC was mostly illusory"

    I don't know if it's an english thing, or what, but this sentence doesn't make any sense at all.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I suspect that LFR is there to continue the production of raids. The game in general might be better off with just more 5 mans.


    How would anyone know about something they never did? Makes no sense.
    LFR was created as a response to raid participation issues. Players weren't asking for more dungeons (this was back when token grinding was running heroics over and over again), they were asking for access to raid content.

    I like 5 man dungeons too but I think the easy dungeon model + LFR is good for WoW in particular, DDO does dungeons better and I don't really think that model works all that well for this particular game. I do suspect though that Blizzard will be taking dungeons a step further next expansion by making normal mode dungeons LFD only and heroic dungeons will actually feel heroic and server/realid specific, much like heroic scenarios now are.

  7. #87
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Because oddly enough people do tend to learn about things even without doing it (it's like we can learn by observation).
    I believe that i've participated once in Rated BG and that was enough for me to learn that i don't really want to participate in it.
    (Non wow example) I know about dota2, i can discuss dota 2, i can understand what's going on in dota2. But i've never played it and never will.
    So even though when most players didn't raid the game was fine, you are in agreement that the fact the raids existed was the reason they carried on playing?

    really?

    hmmm
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    So even though when most players didn't raid the game was fine, you are in agreement that the fact the raids existed was the reason they carried on playing?

    really?

    hmmm
    Honestly ? For a lot of them : yes.
    Being able to raid was the golden carrot, i know a tons of people who would farm bg's for that season 2 gear, for a chance to raid. Not for a chance to kill KT or Vash, but for a chance to to try to kill alar.
    Then people would farm heroics (which i'd say were harder than current normal mods, lol 1shotcleavetotheface) to get the gear for a chance to raid.
    You weren't entitled a boss kill, you weren't told "sure come on it, and kill at least a few bosses" you actually had to earn that right. And it was annoying, and it was a PITA, but for many players it was a goal.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    I'll be honest, I have no idea what you're saying.

    "new players...may not have fully realized their possibility of raiding in BC was mostly illusory"

    I don't know if it's an english thing, or what, but this sentence doesn't make any sense at all.
    Sorry, I'll try to be more clear.

    Many players who were new to MMOs, who were playing BC, didn't realize that they didn't have a realistic shot at raiding, given how the raids were designed and tuned. And indeed, most never made it past Karazhan, if they even got that far. The idea that they'd be raiding in T5 and T6 was, for them, just an illusion.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    So even though when most players didn't raid the game was fine, you are in agreement that the fact the raids existed was the reason they carried on playing?

    really?

    hmmm
    Raids is not the only content in the game. Some people simply do not want to raid. I know people who do nothing but fishing in WoW. They love fishing, and fishing is their content. I have friends children that have characters that they use to run around and look at the pretty animals. They would never ever be interested in raiding. Making the assumption that the entire playerbase wants to raid is a huge assumption.

  11. #91
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Honestly ? For a lot of them : yes.
    Being able to raid was the golden carrot, i know a tons of people who would farm bg's for that season 2 gear, for a chance to raid. Not for a chance to kill KT or Vash, but for a chance to to try to kill alar.
    Then people would farm heroics (which i'd say were harder than current normal mods, lol 1shotcleavetotheface) to get the gear for a chance to raid.
    You weren't entitled a boss kill, you weren't told "sure come on it, and kill at least a few bosses" you actually had to earn that right. And it was annoying, and it was a PITA, but for many players it was a goal.
    You know that in TBC about 50% of all players never got to level 70, right?
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Sorry, I'll try to be more clear.

    Many players who were new to MMOs, who were playing BC, didn't realize that they didn't have a realistic shot at raiding, given how the raids were designed and tuned. And indeed, most never made it past Karazhan, if they even got that far. The idea that they'd be raiding in T5 and T6 was, for them, just an illusion.
    Ok, thank you. I see what you're saying.

    I disagree completely. I think the time commitment was the biggest sticking point.

    When a Large number of people never got to max level during Vanilla and BC I don't think their goal was raiding, if it was they would have finished the process.

    Also the old raids were much much much easier, mechanically. The problems in Vanilla and BC, as far as I can tell from what I read, as I started playing in wrath, was one of grinding gear and attunements. The difficulty was the time commitment, not the content.

    Here's one way to show that: Naxxramas was brought back in wrath, how many people cleared it as opposed to in Vanilla? Was it nerfed that much? or were the mechanics simply easy and, once people had enough gear to survive, easily cleared.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You know that in TBC about 50% of all players never got to level 70, right?
    A) i would love to see stats that show how many accounts had level 70s vs total accounts, and how many of them quit before level 20 (30). Aka data that's not poluted by twins / alts or people who were never serious players.
    B) And ? For it's true that for some people end game was never their objective, for some it was question, for some it was fishing, for some it was Goldshire inn on Moonguard.


    Here's one way to show that: Naxxramas was brought back in wrath, how many people cleared it as opposed to in Vanilla? Was it nerfed that much? or were the mechanics simply easy and, once people had enough gear to survive, easily cleared.
    TBH it was nerfed that hard.
    For example loatheb : level 60 - health pool of around 5k --> auto attack for ~1.5k , level 80 - health pool of around 25k --> auto attack for ~3k.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    Here's one way to show that: Naxxramas was brought back in wrath, how many people cleared it as opposed to in Vanilla? Was it nerfed that much? or were the mechanics simply easy and, once people had enough gear to survive, easily cleared.
    Really....

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    A)

    TBH it was nerfed that hard.
    The mechanics were still amazingly simple when compared to today's fights. The problem was not that most people weren't skilled enough to raid, the problem was it took so long to get ready to raid and you had to go through every single prior tier to be able to raid vanilla naxx.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 06:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    Really....
    Just comparing old mechanics to current mechanics my friend.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    The mechanics were still amazingly simple when compared to today's fights. The problem was not that most people weren't skilled enough to raid, the problem was it took so long to get ready to raid and you had to go through every single prior tier to be able to raid vanilla naxx.
    What's your point? Really terrible players in lvl 90 gear are also able to kill lich king heroic. That's exactly how hard it was nerfed. Even then several mechanics were also changed/removed.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Can i see the same graphs before the nerfs went out (mostly since it was the final content patch unlike what we're looking at now).
    Can i see the same graphs for Uld / T11 / Firelands (also before the nerfs), and just for the sake of discussion BT (or even TK/SSC).
    You're trying to compare apple to oranges. On one hand we have final patch raids which have been nerfed hard (to the point when at the end of the patch normal mode DS seemed to be easier than LFR) on another hand we content that is still sort of relevant and very relevant.
    The graphs for Icecrown and Dragon Soul highlight, pretty clearly, that staggered nerfs work as a means of keeping people moving.

    The entire point is in Mists of Pandaria and on.

    I'm not entirely sure why people are skipping the most important part of the post and concentrating on the least, especially when I specifically stated it was riddled with imperfections and would have my own confirmation bias behind it.

    Oh, wait - I do know.

    Because it's easier to argue with the latter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    The mechanics were still amazingly simple when compared to today's fights. The problem was not that most people weren't skilled enough to raid, the problem was it took so long to get ready to raid and you had to go through every single prior tier to be able to raid vanilla naxx.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 06:39 PM ----------



    Just comparing old mechanics to current mechanics my friend.
    I'm sure that's why all the top guilds that were top in vanilla took soo long to clear it, must've had a bunch of baddies and this had nothing to do with content being nerfed by :
    Being nerfed, better gear itemization, better talents.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    I'm sure that's why all the top guilds that were top in vanilla took soo long to clear it, must've had a bunch of baddies and this had nothing to do with content being nerfed by :
    Being nerfed, better gear itemization, better talents.
    Sigh, No, It took so long because they had to grind a shit ton of other stuff to get there. You're missing my point, I think I stated it the wrong way.

    If mechanics, and not numbers, were what was hard about Naxx, those mechanics would have made it still fairly difficult in Wrath. Instead the mechanics, which were remarkably simple, when compared to today's raiding environment, were relatively easily overcome by a more sophisticated raiding populace.

    Yes, better talents and itemization helped. Mechanically, though, the fights were not hard. They were hard precisely because they were gear checks.

    Fights like LK, T11 fights, Firelands, T14/15 are much more difficult mechanically than virtually any of the Vanilla and BC fights, with very, very, very few exceptions. Some of these fights still are capable of wiping groups that are not careful, like LK and Rag, particularly on HC. They are much easier now, of course, but the mechanics still must be kept in mind or the group, even at lvl 90, will wipe. I can think of very few mechanics in NAXX which could still wipe a group

    The barrier to raiding in Vanilla and BC was not that it was too hard, but that it took too long to get started.

  20. #100
    Why is it a problem if these guilds still haven't killed Lei Shen or are stuck midway through ToT? If you are a normal raider heroics do not matter for you, so when normals are done you have completed your tier why would you want that to be over 2+ months before it ends? The more gear drops + valor ilvl upgrades you get the easier it will get. For those stuck on Horridon it is only their lack of looking up what they are doing wrong that's stopping them a nerf wont do anything to help them.

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