WotLK to MoP: A Trend Analysis of Raiding Difficulty.

[Brodeo]

While that may be true, given the timetable of patch content the strain is on completing it in-time, rather than the vanilla/BC model of just complete it. The rushed feeling of getting everything done before the next patch comes as a casual-to-mid-level guild is a lot of strain and many simply don't find it worth it anymore.

I agree. From wrath on back it was possible to farm the tier on 1 raid night and do alt runs other nights. I liked how it was nose to the grindstone for a while then relax and do old/current content with alts or guild pvp. Full-throttle from patch to patch really is only going to serve to burn people out in the long run.

[Akraen]

this forum is a psychological goldmine

I just don't see how we could ever step up to 4 raid types. Where does that mentality end? LFR would be much higher quality if there was no "Normal" mode because a lot more people would simply run LFR, even in groups and guild groups. LFR can be a little more challenging and not simply be rewarding of bully mentalities, thus encouraging people to enter with friends. Normal mode can be progressive, easy to hard with optional hardmodes for the super elite guilds.

[NeverStop]

Ooo! I love "Jeopardy"!

"Why will people walk away from the expansion after killing the final boss once?"

By "final boss" I assume you mean "final boss on the highest difficulty?" Personally I didn't quit after killing LFR Madness of Deathwing, but I did quit after killing the Heroic version. Lot of raiders quit the game after killing Heroic Madness because why farm Heroic Dragon Soul for 416 ilvl gear when that gear is completely useless for next tier raid progression?

It's no surprise final tier raids of the expac have the most attrition at the hardcore level because a gear reset with the next expansion means there's no incentive to complete that raid more than once.

[Osmeric]

By "final boss" I assume you mean "final boss on the highest difficulty?"

No, I mean the final boss in the last tier on LFR difficulty.

If you are consigned to LFR, as most people who previously raided are, then there is no guild cohesion keeping you going. You have no obligation to anyone else, no raid spot to preserve. There is gear from the last raid, but what do you need it for?

I think if Blizzard is counting on people transitioning from LFR -> normal -> heroic via progressive nerfs in T16, they are in for a very rude surprise.

[Brodeo]

this forum is a psychological goldmine

I just don't see how we could ever step up to 4 raid types. Where does that mentality end? LFR would be much higher quality if there was no "Normal" mode because a lot more people would simply run LFR, even in groups and guild groups. LFR can be a little more challenging and not simply be rewarding of bully mentalities, thus encouraging people to enter with friends. Normal mode can be progressive, easy to hard with optional hardmodes for the super elite guilds.

Four difficulties makes the least amount of sense. I dont understand where people get the idea that this is a good idea.

I'd rather see LFR go 10 man and ramp up difficulty to force communication/cooperation. It SHOULD bridge the gap between heroic dungeons and normal raiding.

But im sure people would complain and quit until it was reverted.

[artemishunter1]

Four difficulties makes the least amount of sense. I dont understand where people get the idea that this is a good idea.

I'd rather see LFR go 10 man and ramp up difficulty to force communication/cooperation. It SHOULD bridge the gap between heroic dungeons and normal raiding.

But im sure people would complain and quit until it was reverted.

I do not know why the 10 and 25 man separation of Lich King was undone. Was it casuals who complained?

[Glorious Leader]

The answer is LFR.

An answer to what exactly? Increasing complexity? No it's not. Eventually you'll see such a huge gap that even heroic raiders will now be relegated to lfr and the only people raiding outside of lfr will be method and dream paragon. A correction will have to occur.

[artemishunter1]

Right so the game is to hard for the majority of people playing it. I mean theirs a certain degree of arrogance and presumption on your part but even if their wasn't you aren't gonna change the gamer mentality and guess what clearly blizzard isn't. You are a dying minority. It is all Blizzards fault. They know where their bread is buttered and if people like you leave the game will survive. Let's put it this way if content is made easier their will be some one to replace you. If content is made harder their is less likely to be some one to replace you or anyone who leaves for any reason. The increase in difficulty is actually unsustainable regardless of what era of gaming you lived in. The harder it gets the less people will accomplish it (the point of increasing challenge and complexity if I'm not mistaken), the less people accomplishing is the less people you have to recruit from. It cannot simple go up and up and up without some consequence and your seeing the consequences now. So in the end a correction will have to be made and that correction WILL NOT involve further delineation and further stratification (via some new theoretical difficulty mode) because that's not really a solution that will get people into normal raiding. They absolutely can and must backpeddle on boss design. The ONLY solution that has any hope of working is in my signature. Swallow it up. Love it. Live it. Or leave.

Sorry the degree of patronizing bs is never ending with this argument. I hope the developers embrace it though. Game could stand to lose a million or two more subs. People want casual guilds and casual raid styles and it's up to the developer to provide them, not listen to guys on forums with wild expectations that the community will change itself because of their magic forum post. It's the stupid entitlement argument over again even though it's not really true and even if it was it wouldn't be really good development feedback. I mean can you imagine if the developers tmmrw turned around to the players who left and said "HEY did you guys know you were just entitled? What's wrong with you? Shouldn't you resub right now now that you know your an entitled child?". I mean I think they want to say it and GC comes close but they know where their bread is buttered. Even if we embrace your idea about the gaming community as a whole (which I don't for the record, it's more likely just your projection and your trying to add some moral world view to the topic that didn't require it) it wouldn't matter. The developers aren't changing anybodies mind on this issue and neither are you. Players can and do and will just leave theirs guilds and leave their raids and leave the game as a whole.

In summation increased difficulty and complexity is unsustainable. A correction MUST occur if you wish to see raiding survive. If you'd rather it die then by all means carry on fighting.

But does not the LFR fulfills the patchwork style raiding casuals want and need? Why is it still hated? Even the average raiders can't stand patchwork style raiding for long. Who will replace them?

[Osmeric]

But does not the LFR fulfills the patchwork style raiding casuals want and need? Why is it still hated? Even the average raiders can't stand patchwork style raiding for long. Who will replace them?

It fails because it's not a guild event, it's a randomly organized event with random "special" players. The game experience in LFR is hollow and unsatisfying.

[Glorious Leader]

But does not the LFR fulfills the patchwork style raiding casuals want and need? Why is it still hated? Even the average raiders can't stand patchwork style raiding for long. Who will replace them?

LFR is not suitable for a number of reasons. Social considerations don't exist in lfr. LFR is also to easy. Again we got easy hard harder. No medium, just a middle.

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 03:19 AM ----------

It fails because it's not a guild event, it's a randomly organized event with random "special" players. The game experience in LFR is hollow and unsatisfying.

Having said that I don't think simple making lfr que for 10 players or making an lfr 10 man mode will do the trick either. It has to be more challenging but not overtly challenging. It has to be more rewarding as well. It has to be an appropriate medium difficulty. I really don't understand why medium difficulty in starcraft or in diablo is relatively so fucking easy to what they expect out of normals in wow. It makes no sense. I mean how much of an insult is it to the player base.

[nekobaka]

The first presentation is a graphical look at how players progressed through Icecrown Citadel, taken from the numbers currently in use.

Are these current completion numbers or the numbers when ICC was current? I ask as it is possible for the number of players who went back after could skew the graph greatly and make it far more flat than the numbers I remember seeing and the general clearance I personally had been seeing on KJ. At least half of those I noted complaining that Cata raiding was too hard did not even clear ICC let alone clear 11/12 just to see Arthas.

I think if Blizzard is counting on people transitioning from LFR -> normal -> heroic via progressive nerfs in T16, they are in for a very rude surprise.

We might just get what happened with DS again with normal mode getting nerfed to the point that it is easier than LFR making the effort to reward ratio for normal mode far higher than LFR. Then the normal mode raiders move on to the heroics because the normals are severely underwhelming and they already got the loot. Or players just get lazy and then get burned out from rofl stomping things to just replace the gear in a few months anyways and quit.

[Zooch]

I have yet to understand why people use ICC as a comparative example with ToT. ICC and DS were the LAST TIERS of the expansions, and as a result received special nerfs over time that made them ridiculously easy for players to complete. I guarantee you will see similar completion percentages of SoO next tier, as the past two expansions have shown Blizzards desire to give all raiders access to final tier content. You should be comparing ToT to Ulduar and Firelands, which were both middle tiers and saw this sort of difficulty. Your pretenses for arguments are purposely skewed to begin with in order to further proliferate your biased opinion, and uninformed readers take your insisted upon facts as logic.

[Volitar]

The numbers on ToT are crazy. I felt the drop but holy smokes I didn't think it would be this big.

[Deleted]

Yeah, they've been trying too hard to add too many crazy complex mechanics to every boss. Individually they're all cool but when you stack too many difficult mechanics together it becomes a tad bit overwhelming. Combined with gear checks and it can become guild breaking. This kind of thing is fine, if not perfect for heroic, but normals should not be this face-melting.

Wait for a nerf patch and use the LFR gear to clear the old raids. It should be a privilege to do normal modes.

[Glorious Leader]

Wait for a nerf patch and use the LFR gear to clear the old raids. It should be a privilege to do normal modes.

LOL I mean can you imagine if it said on the box for d3 or starcraft BUY THIS GAME YOU MIGHT BE PRIVILEGED TO DO NORMAL! I mean can you imagine. Ghostcralwer sends out a tweet to everybody who left the game tmmrw "hey didn't you guys know normals are a privilege and you shouldn't have access to em so cut your whining and resub right away!"

[Brodeo]

I do not know why the 10 and 25 man separation of Lich King was undone. Was it casuals who complained?

Possibly. The core of our 25 man ran 10 man to supplement our gearing process. I feel like this was the case for a lot of guilds. A lot of the lower ilev gear was still BiS in heroic because arpen was still a thing.

I had the time to do all that on multiple toons back then, but if i was a 2-3 night a week raider, it would be too much.

---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 11:36 PM ----------

LOL I mean can you imagine if it said on the box for d3 or starcraft BUY THIS GAME YOU MIGHT BE PRIVILEGED TO DO NORMAL! I mean can you imagine. Ghostcralwer sends out a tweet to everybody who left the game tmmrw "hey didn't you guys know normals are a privilege and you shouldn't have access to em so cut your whining and resub right away!"

Have you ever played a game that you felt entitled to finish without actually needing to overcome the diffculty?

I've never purchased a game that i felt i deserved to beat if it was too hard. Why is WoW different?

[Exoblade]

Well think about it, first off their are far less raiders / guilds still going compared to LK days. I know nearly every oceanic player from Blackrock / Frostmourne and 90% or so don't raid anymore. And yes this is a small sample overall but its a valid point.

This is caused by a number of reasons, firstly the game is old and people just get sick of it. Many people only played because of their friends and MoP caused allot of people to quit and of course that causes a ripple effect.

Whats the point of normal mode guilds anymore? I know that all the normal mode guilds i have been in were not that great of players and when you can just LFR everything you are going to eat away at guilds.

[Glorious Leader]

Have you ever played a game that you felt entitled to finish without actually needing to overcome the diffculty?

I've never purchased a game that i felt i deserved to beat if it was too hard. Why is WoW different?

Usually the difficulties in games are much better suited however. Trust me you don't want to start comparing to other games. It's a losing argument. Their are but a few RARE titles that challenge the crap out of people on normal (ninja gaiden, demon souls) Especially comparing other blizzard games. Sc2 and D3 normal are jokes...

[Osmeric]

We might just get what happened with DS again with normal mode getting nerfed to the point that it is easier than LFR making the effort to reward ratio for normal mode far higher than LFR.

But by that point, why bother? I don't plan to do normal final tier regardless of how much they nerf it. I've already seen the story on LFR, and there's no prestige or guild obligation to keep me going after that. I'm not going to raid for the purpose of accumulating meaningless numbers and purple pixels.

[Mormolyce]

This statement alone automatically discounts your opinion on the matter. I'm sorry you might find this funny but your to good to have an opinion on what is to hard or not, certainly not an authoritative one. Like I don't expect that as a human being I should have much relevant perspective (enough to form a decent opinion at any rate) on the trials and tribulations of ants.

Yet people clearing normals in the first week come into the thread and protest that they aren't hard and that they know better and that heres all these other reasons. I'm sure somewhere some ant colony is dying to, I guess they just couldn't get organized?

Every progression raiding guild clears NM the first week it opens every single tier. They really aren't that good, when I was raiding my guild was about 5th on the server. They're now 1st - we had some great recruitment in MoP and we have a really strong core now but really what happened is that all those other guilds disbanded.

A major problem "lesser mortals" have is this massive inferiority complex where you think progression raiders have some kind of god-given gift you lack. There really isn't that big a difference between you and them. I'm personally not even an awesome raider, I'd characterise myself as "pretty good". Tendency to get lazy and die to stupid things :P

In my raid group there were people who pulled amazing DPS sure, I don't even know how some of them did it. But that wasn't what got us through content - not even in HMs. Really 99% of raiding is teamwork, practice and determination. Really ridiculous amounts of determination. If you had 100 wipes on a boss per week you'd down it too.

In fact I remember we were stuck on HM Spine for absolutely forever back in DS progression. If you remember, the big thing was getting enough burst into the tendons each phase to lift the plates. Now one of our other players was a Rogue who could thrash me in the meters with one hand behind his back - and I was further up the legendary chain than he was! He was one of those guys who's obsessed with ranks and would get serious world ranks on WoL. Needless to say he was doing a massive amount of damage on those tendons, had all his CDs and procs planned out perfectly. But when we finally got that fight down, it was on a night when he wasn't there. Because our problem actually wasn't that we lacked amazing DPS like he could do, it was that our ranged team was sloppy on breaking the grips. We just improved our teamwork and coordination, broke grips better and wham, it was down. If ever there was a fight that depended on DPS that was it, but actually the real thing holding us back wasn't anything elitist at all. We downed that boss with LESS DPS than the previous weeks.

Anyway, moral of the story is, raiding isn't about being god's gift to recount. Not unless you're in Paragon/Method/etc and trying to beat everything on heroic in the first week. And even those guilds REALLY beat bosses by gluing themselves to their computers 24/7 until it's dead.

P.S. Personal note: I only raided in progression raiding groups for 3 tiers myself. Before that I played casually, was in guilds with IRL friends or in-game friends and just did NMs if anything. A week or so after HoF came out I quit due to the huge time investment taking a toll on my outside life and other game-playing. I've seen WoW from a casual end as well as a "high" end. Gotta say I prefer the casual end... if only playing with friends didn't have nightmarish logistical/attendance issues :P