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  1. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    First of all, when comparing normal modes, you shouldn't be comparing them to anything pre-Ulduar.
    Erm, why? because you lose the argument if we do that?
    By doing that you're just shooting yourself in the foot. For example nothing in normal mode ToT beats out Sunwell/Naxx40 stuff.
    Agreed. However, this just proves the point about raid difficulty removing players from the raiding pool beyond all doubt. Sunwell didn't have low participation levels because no one wanted to go, it had low participation levels because it was rock hard.

    Also note, this is also proof that fireflys methodology is worthless. Of all the guilds that went into sunwell, you'll see whatever completion rate. Lets say sunwell had a 98% first boss/last boss completion rate. Does this mean sunwell was easy? No, does it bollocks. Equally you might see that 90% of those who killed 1 boss in MC never got to go on and kill raggy - does this mean that MC was rock hard? Again, does it bollocks.

    Other than that, normal mode ToT in 496(?) gear surely doesn't beat out Ulduar 25man in 213 gear, Icc no-buff in 245 gear or tier 11 in 346 gear. I'm inclined to say that Icc/tier 11 beats out any MoP normal mode difficulty.
    Well as only 4 guilds in the world got past pre nerf horridon in less than 500 ilvl we'll never have any data that proves it. lol

  2. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Erm, why? because you lose the argument if we do that?
    Tracking things pre-Ulduar is simply very difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Agreed. However, this just proves the point about raid difficulty removing players from the raiding pool beyond all doubt. Sunwell didn't have low participation levels because no one wanted to go, it had low participation levels because it was rock hard.
    I think most top guilds agree that Arthas, Ragnaros and Lei Shen on heroic were all tougher than M'uru or Kil'jaeden; but don't forget the attunements that required clearing, as well as a complete lack of any catch up mechanic allowing players to skip tiers. We've got to factor that in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Also note, this is also proof that fireflys methodology is worthless. Of all the guilds that went into sunwell, you'll see whatever completion rate. Lets say sunwell had a 98% first boss/last boss completion rate. Does this mean sunwell was easy? No, does it bollocks. Equally you might see that 90% of those who killed 1 boss in MC never got to go on and kill raggy - does this mean that MC was rock hard? Again, does it bollocks.
    If we want this debate to develop, we need to move on from this. The "first boss = last boss" methodology has been objectively discredited more than enough times now, it's as dead as a doornail.

    Assuming we can accept that raids are now harder than ever (and reasonable people have accepted it), and the raiding community is dying as a result, it's time to start asking more important questions:

    1) Why is raiding now considered so challenging?
    2) How can the raiding community be revived?

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Well as only 4 guilds in the world got past pre nerf horridon in less than 500 ilvl we'll never have any data that proves it. lol
    That fact, in itself, proves a point.

    Remember, though - the developers don't actually believe the content, as it is now, is too hard. They only admitted that 10-man was overtuned, NOT that the content was too hard by design. My original post was designed to point out why such a belief is not only delusional, but is also killing the raiding community from the bottom. Whatever else people have argued about in this thread (or others), it's surely obvious that raiding numbers are at a critically low point and something really has to be done about it.

  3. #523
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Tracking things pre-Ulduar is simply very difficult.
    Tracking the data of clears is, looking at the mechanics and so on isn't so much. but I take the point.

    I think most top guilds agree that Arthas, Ragnaros and Lei Shen on heroic were all tougher than M'uru or Kil'jaeden; but don't forget the attunements that required clearing, as well as a complete lack of any catch up mechanic allowing players to skip tiers. We've got to factor that in.
    Oh, absolutely, but the top guilds really don't matter in this discussion, imo. While the difficulty of the very top tier last boss might go up and down, for this investigation we want to know about what average raiders were up to.

    If we want this debate to develop, we need to move on from this. The "first boss = last boss" methodology has been objectively discredited more than enough times now, it's as dead as a doornail.
    Yep. But it's fun to do....
    Assuming we can accept that raids are now harder than ever (and reasonable people have accepted it), and the raiding community is dying as a result, it's time to start asking more important questions:

    1) Why is raiding now considered so challenging?
    I have a sneaking suspicion it has to do with timing. Tot is pretty doable at 510 ilvl, even if it is on the heavy side as far as mechanics go. The thing is, the gearing wasn't available really for most players until 5.3 launched. Now, even if you were paying close attention you'd probably not know the gear was "in the post" so to speak and so might just see this wall in front of you with no help coming to help you climb over it.

    Blizzard employees of course are well aware of the fact that gear is on it's way, and so theres a perceptual gap there.
    2) How can the raiding community be revived?
    Weirdly I think it's by having more non raid based things to do. The HC scenarios that need a pre made team are great, but it's only 3 people. 5 mans are better because everyone has their assigned role and so on, you can try out new guys etc. Ofc this requires that they be of a decent standard and not just faceroll. While challenge modes are good stuff, with the amount of VP farming and other things I find I don't have time to do them and get all my "keep up to date for raiding" stuff done as well. Or, another way, the lack of a tangible reward means that they are lower down my list of priorities than the pure gameplay they provide would otherwise lead me to.

    That fact, in itself, proves a point.

    Remember, though - the developers don't actually believe the content, as it is now, is too hard. They only admitted that 10-man was overtuned, NOT that the content was too hard by design. My original post was designed to point out why such a belief is not only delusional, but is also killing the raiding community from the bottom. Whatever else people have argued about in this thread (or others), it's surely obvious that raiding numbers are at a critically low point and something really has to be done about it.
    I think they might also be looking at raids and player control difficulty as two different aspects. The point has been made on here and the official forusm in some excellent posts about working memory and so on. With a priority button mashing system, more player attention needs to be expended on just player control, leaving less for paying attention to raid mechanics. This might be overloading lots of players. Such a difficulty wouldn't be noticable at all however if you had the baseline cognitive abilities to handle it (which lets face it, the blizzard design staff are highly likely to have, being high IQ geek types.)

    Like touching your toes, it's easy if you can and impossible if you can't and the two experiences don't translate accross via anecdote. You just get one guy saying it's easy and one guy saying it's impossible in a circular argument. (A bit like these threads...)

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Erm, why? because you lose the argument if we do that?


    Agreed. However, this just proves the point about raid difficulty removing players from the raiding pool beyond all doubt. Sunwell didn't have low participation levels because no one wanted to go, it had low participation levels because it was rock hard.

    Also note, this is also proof that fireflys methodology is worthless. Of all the guilds that went into sunwell, you'll see whatever completion rate. Lets say sunwell had a 98% first boss/last boss completion rate. Does this mean sunwell was easy? No, does it bollocks. Equally you might see that 90% of those who killed 1 boss in MC never got to go on and kill raggy - does this mean that MC was rock hard? Again, does it bollocks.



    Well as only 4 guilds in the world got past pre nerf horridon in less than 500 ilvl we'll never have any data that proves it. lol
    I acknowledge your point regarding hotfixes to difficulty. And I know that it is hard to compare in between tiers.

    To retun to my point about tier 11 and Icc normal modes being more difficult than ToT:

    I checked up on the numer of normal mode clears during the first week (the week before access to heroic modes) for Icc, tier 11 and ToT. First I have to say that it is not easy to compare between tiers. First of all Icc had something like 10-12(?) weeks before normal mode Lich King was released before guilds had access to him, giving them plenty of time to farm Icc gear in between. Second of all, guilds had a clear ilvl advantage going into both ToT and Icc, whereas tier 11 had all gear reset from previous expansion. There were also far more raiding guilds during both Icc and tier 11.
    These dates are made from a European reset pov seeing as most top raiding guilds are European, and it would be too difficult to include 2(3) different resets:

    Icc (3rd of February 2010 - 9th February): 45 normal mode 25man Lich King kills.
    Tier 11 (8th of December 2010 -14th of December 2010): 13 normal mode Nefarian kills (technically 17 if you include past midnight kills+Stars Asian kill)
    ToT (6th of March 2013 - 12th of March): 442 normal mode Lei Shen kills.

    I think it's safe to say that Icc and tier 11 was generally a harder normal mode tier. My semi casual guild managed to kill Lei Shen before the first reset (12 hours a week). A guild like Vodka didn't even manage to kill Nefarian during first week of tier 11. Remember all the crap about Ensidia using saronite bombs in Lich King? That was normal mode. A guild like Blood Legion rushed down Lich King 10man, not 25man, to be the first guild in the world to kill him. And that was with 10 weeks of normal mode Icc loot and previous heroic tier gear.
    Today you're seeing guilds killing normal mode end bosses on release day, and top guilds farming them with several raid groups to gear up their members. None of this happened in tier 11 and Icc.

    Again. I think your statement about normal mode difficulty being as hard as ever is far from true.
    Last edited by mmoca20fa69a21; 2013-06-04 at 10:18 AM.

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    I acknowledge your point regarding hotfixes to difficulty. And I know that it is hard to compare in between tiers.

    To retun to my point about tier 11 and Icc normal modes being more difficult than ToT:

    I checked up on the numer of normal mode clears during the first week (the week before access to heroic modes) for Icc, tier 11 and ToT. First I have to say that it is not easy to compare between tiers. First of all Icc had something like 10-12(?) weeks before normal mode Lich King was released before guilds had access to him, giving them plenty of time to farm Icc gear in between. Second of all, guilds had a clear ilvl advantage going into both ToT and Icc, whereas tier 11 had all gear reset from previous expansion. There were also far more raiding guilds during both Icc and tier 11.
    These dates are made from a European reset pov seeing as most top raiding guilds are European, and it would be too difficult to include 2(3) different resets:

    Icc (3rd of February 2010 - 9th February): 45 normal mode Lich King kills.
    Tier 11 (8th of December 2010 -14th of December 2010): 13 normal mode Nefarian kills (technically 17 if you include past midnight kills+Stars Asian kill)
    ToT (6th of March 2013 - 12th of March): 442 normal mode Lei Shen kills.

    I think it's safe to say that Icc and tier 11 was generally a harder normal mode tier.
    Based of people clearing it in the first week? Get real! most players might wander in to see how much they will get stomped, but mostly they'll be farming the new gearing system to get ready. The idea that average guilds are even vaguely considering clearing a raid in the first two months, let alone the first week is madness.

    If most players beat arthas at 30% off, that was it's real difficulty, not when blood legion finished with their 300 wipe 24/7 sit in.
    My semi casual guild managed to kill Lei Shen before the first reset (12 hours a week). A guild like Vodka didn't even manage to kill Nefarian during first week of tier 11. Remember all the crap about Ensidia using saronite bombs in Lich King? That was normal mode. A guild like Blood Legion rushed down Lich King 10man, not 25man, to be the first guild in the world to kill him. And that was with 10 weeks of normal mode Icc loot and previous heroic tier gear.
    Today you're seeing guilds killing normal mode end bosses on release day, and top guilds farming them with several raid groups to gear up their members. None of this happened in tier 11 and Icc.

    Again. I think your statement about normal mode difficulty being as hard as ever is far from true.
    I agree, 10 man is now harder than ever.

    please stop using top of the line guilds in a discussion about average raiders, or i'll start using people who struggle to log in as counterbalance to it. (Andf i'd be right to, as well.)

  6. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    While it's an interesting read, the issue here is that you're not distinguishing between 10 and 25 man's. Back in ICC, 10 man normal was equivelant to what LFR is today - the easiest game mode, could be done with most pugs, dropped the lowest Ilvl loot, etc, etc.
    This means that it was pugged, and thus tons of guilds would have killed the encounter, and alot of them with mains from more established 25 man guilds to carry them through it (because 10 man didn't lock 25 man).
    So you taking the numbers of guilds that's killed 10 man marrowgar is severely skewered, simply because of PuG's creditting more than one guild at a time.
    That all changed with T11 and 12, which really should be included in your statistics, at the very least because you'd see that the participation amount in T11 was far bigger than T13 - 71K guilds killing the first boss, and 50K finishing the tier.
    The reason for the drop in Dragon Soul normal mode participation can be accounted to a diminishing amount of raiders (84K->71K->64K->55K), but also to the fact that the DS normal modes were tuned to be slightly harder on the gear checks than any previous normal modes were, because LFR is / was supposed to change normal mode from "what everyone does when they're bored and have a little extra time, requiring no organization and no set raid schedule". Effectively adding a third difficulty mode that shaved away the bottom percentages of players, because the normal modes became harder.


    Also, wowprogress stops tracking kills when a new tier is released.
    While it was easier, I can't recall being able to ignore all non oneshot mechanics and zerging through shit.

  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Based of people clearing it in the first week? Get real! most players might wander in to see how much they will get stomped, but mostly they'll be farming the new gearing system to get ready. The idea that average guilds are even vaguely considering clearing a raid in the first two months, let alone the first week is madness.

    If most players beat arthas at 30% off, that was it's real difficulty, not when blood legion finished with their 300 wipe 24/7 sit in.


    I agree, 10 man is now harder than ever.

    please stop using top of the line guilds in a discussion about average raiders, or i'll start using people who struggle to log in as counterbalance to it. (Andf i'd be right to, as well.)
    So you're just going to dismiss my point about tier 11 entirely? Sure, Icc was nerfed. Tier 11 was not. You're just denying facts if you're blindly accusing difficulty alone as the reason for the fall in normal mode activity. Tier 11 was a lot harder tuned, yet far more players were raiding back then.

  8. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    So you're just going to dismiss my point about tier 11 entirely?
    Yes, because you were looking at the first week.

    First week after expansion most players are still levelling. Hell, first month is more like it if you include gearing.

  9. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Also note, this is also proof that fireflys methodology is worthless. Of all the guilds that went into sunwell, you'll see whatever completion rate. Lets say sunwell had a 98% first boss/last boss completion rate. Does this mean sunwell was easy? No, does it bollocks. Equally you might see that 90% of those who killed 1 boss in MC never got to go on and kill raggy - does this mean that MC was rock hard? Again, does it bollocks.
    Or you know, I did not use said methodology on said bosses because it would be worthless?

    Did you see me attempting apply said logic on attuned instances? No.

  10. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, because you were looking at the first week.

    First week after expansion most players are still levelling. Hell, first month is more like it if you include gearing.
    How else do you intend on judging difficulty?

    My guild back in tier 11 had a lot of heroic kills within top 300 world, and generally had a much better guild structure and more skilled raiding roster. We killed normal mode Nefarian within 1 month of release. In MoP we cleared Mogu'shan Vaults within first week of release.

    I think everyone who raided in the same guild in tier 11 and tier 14 will tell you that tier 11 normal mode was harder.

    If you're going to prove that normal mode difficulty is as hard as ever, you may have to put in some effort yourself. Because so far I haven't seen a single proof that it is true.

  11. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    While it's an interesting read, the issue here is that you're not distinguishing between 10 and 25 man's. Back in ICC, 10 man normal was equivelant to what LFR is today - the easiest game mode, could be done with most pugs, dropped the lowest Ilvl loot, etc, etc.
    This means that it was pugged, and thus tons of guilds would have killed the encounter, and alot of them with mains from more established 25 man guilds to carry them through it (because 10 man didn't lock 25 man).
    So you taking the numbers of guilds that's killed 10 man marrowgar is severely skewered, simply because of PuG's creditting more than one guild at a time.
    That all changed with T11 and 12, which really should be included in your statistics, at the very least because you'd see that the participation amount in T11 was far bigger than T13 - 71K guilds killing the first boss, and 50K finishing the tier.
    The reason for the drop in Dragon Soul normal mode participation can be accounted to a diminishing amount of raiders (84K->71K->64K->55K), but also to the fact that the DS normal modes were tuned to be slightly harder on the gear checks than any previous normal modes were, because LFR is / was supposed to change normal mode from "what everyone does when they're bored and have a little extra time, requiring no organization and no set raid schedule". Effectively adding a third difficulty mode that shaved away the bottom percentages of players, because the normal modes became harder.


    Also, wowprogress stops tracking kills when a new tier is released.

    while very true, and the OP was a good read, the best way to accurately compare would be from the post cata pre patch (october 2010) because that is when the "intelligent" raid lockout system was added, and after that patch, if u ran icc10 u couldn't run icc25, so it basically removed teh whole "mains boosting noobs in 10" arguement, since if u did icc10 on ur main u were removed from the raid team for 25 progress, so taking a look at the numbers from that point on would be alot more accurate for the whole debate in question.

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    If we want this debate to develop, we need to move on from this. The "first boss = last boss" methodology has been objectively discredited more than enough times now, it's as dead as a doornail.
    Oh my, people can never accept defeat.

    Okay, here is one for you then, come up with a better methodology. Checking some instances stats 1.5 years after they have been released is simply not viable. Checking first - last boss shows the average difficulty of the instance.

    If you check the average % of guilds wiping on normal mode bosses. You get these results after 1 month of progress.

    from easiest to hardest (lower number = less % of guilds wiping on bosses = easier raid)

    T9 10: 5%
    T14: 7.27%
    T9 25: 7.38%
    T8: 7.4%
    T15: 7.93%
    T10 10: 8.34%
    T11: 8.5%
    T13: 8.57%
    T10 25: 8.67%
    T12: 10.62%

  13. #533
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    I just do LFR instead now, because it doesn't feel rewarding to go through something 10x harder for 6 ilvls.

  14. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, because you were looking at the first week.

    First week after expansion most players are still levelling. Hell, first month is more like it if you include gearing.

    i was lvl 90 within 2 days of release, and fully geared in blues and crafted epics after 4 days of release, so pray tell why it took most decent raiders a month to get lvled up and geared?, granted it took most of the other ppl in my guild the full week to get sorted so we were just about ready when blizz unlocked the instances after the 1 week break.

  15. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    If you're going to prove that normal mode difficulty is as hard as ever, you may have to put in some effort yourself. Because so far I haven't seen a single proof that it is true.
    That is because they have no proof. They are trying to win an argument with 0 data to back it up.

    As you say, anyone that raided both T11 and T14 will know that the T11 normals was far harder.

  16. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    How else do you intend on judging difficulty?
    Number of mechanics, need for 3rd party support to complete stuff, clearance rates for the whole tier before it is over, that sort of thing.
    My guild back in tier 11 had a lot of heroic kills within top 300, and generally had a much better guild structure and more skilled raiding roster. We killed normal mode Nefarian within 1 month of release. In MoP we cleared Mogu'shan Vaults within first week of release.

    I think everyone who raided in the same guild in tier 11 and tier 14 will tell you that tier 11 normal mode was harder.
    Except me and my guild. We almost got nefarian down before the nerf patch but had everything else deaded, cleared toes with time to spare.

    Of course, if you were raiding together for that length of time, you'd be better raiders yourselves by the time T14 launched as well, so it still doesn't mean much.
    If you're going to prove that normal mode difficulty is as hard as ever, you may have to put in some effort yourself. Because so far I haven't seen a single proof that it is true.
    Harder than ever. 75% failure rate to clear T14 before it was over. More one shot mechanics. Impossibility of raiding without using voip and add ons, complete lack of pugs on most servers, sky high DPS and HPS requirements for even the most simple of fights, more extraneous in game stuff like gems and reforging to get your head around.

  17. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    While it was easier, I can't recall being able to ignore all non oneshot mechanics and zerging through shit.
    People only remember 30% nerfed ICC.

  18. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i was lvl 90 within 2 days of release, and fully geared in blues and crafted epics after 4 days of release, so pray tell why it took most decent raiders a month to get lvled up and geared?, granted it took most of the other ppl in my guild the full week to get sorted so we were just about ready when blizz unlocked the instances after the 1 week break.
    Grats, you've just taken your own personal experience, and then claimed everyone else was exactly the same as you. On the same basis - I was on holiday for one of the launches, therefore wow must have been like, completely dead with no one playing until I got back, right?

    You have won the "failed universality clause" prize. Take one, pass it on.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 11:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    People only remember 30% nerfed ICC.
    because that was the difficulty most people cleared it on, and is the true difficulty that should be looked at.

  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Except me and my guild. We almost got nefarian down before the nerf patch but had everything else deaded, cleared toes with time to spare.
    So you're saying that you couldn't kill Nefarian before 4.2, but you cleared all of tier 14 before the release of tier 15. How does that exclude your guild?

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Of course, if you were raiding together for that length of time, you'd be better raiders yourselves by the time T14 launched as well, so it still doesn't mean much.
    As I pointed out before: My guild was better structured and had an overall better skill level back in tier 11. I guess many guilds will be able to recognize this, as the recruitment pool was also much bigger back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Harder than ever. 75% failure rate to clear T14 before it was over. More one shot mechanics. Impossibility of raiding without using voip and add ons, complete lack of pugs on most servers, sky high DPS and HPS requirements for even the most simple of fights, more extraneous in game stuff like gems and reforging to get your head around.
    How is this any different from tier 11?

  20. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Harder than ever. 75% failure rate to clear T14 before it was over. More one shot mechanics. Impossibility of raiding without using voip and add ons, complete lack of pugs on most servers, sky high DPS and HPS requirements for even the most simple of fights, more extraneous in game stuff like gems and reforging to get your head around.
    So wait. Recently the complete instance clear rate was irrelevant. Suddenly it isnt?

    Anyhow. Define one-shot mechanic. Something like not getting out of Gara'Jals spirit realm in time is obviously one-shot. How about Flanking Orders. That is survivable by all classes but can probably also kill someone from 100% to 0% if they are not prepared for it. Where do you draw the limit between one-shot and not. Also should falling of platforms count as one-shots?

    You have been disproven times and times again. You can raid without VOIP and addons. Both are tools, probably helps, but not impossible to raid without.
    Complete lack of pugs is because of 10/25 splitting causing less people raiding 25 man to do 10 man pugs and 10 man raiders doing 25 man pugs, people are gearing up through LFR instead of pugging, also the server populations are smaller, naturally calling for less pugs.

    DPS and HPS requirements is sky high on which "simple" fight?

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 11:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    because that was the difficulty most people cleared it on, and is the true difficulty that should be looked at.
    Okay, so if blizzard today would release a 50% nerf to T14, suddenly T14 would be the easiest raid tier ever? Good to know.

    Seems completely legit. Ofc you can not look at the nerfed raids. You gotta look at raids when they were current, since different raids recieves different nerfs.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-06-04 at 11:08 AM.

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