WotLK to MoP: A Trend Analysis of Raiding Difficulty.

[Deleted]

So wait. Recently the complete instance clear rate was irrelevant. Suddenly it isnt?

I did say clearance rate before the tier was over. yes, ICC and DS lasted a long time. But, they were designed to so that's fine.

Anyhow. Define one-shot mechanic. Something like not getting out of Gara'Jals spirit realm in time is obviously one-shot. How about Flanking Orders. That is survivable by all classes but can probably also kill someone from 100% to 0% if they are not prepared for it. Where do you draw the limit between one-shot and not. Also should falling of platforms count as one-shots?

Let me clarify, one shot is when you die and it means the raid will fail as a whole. Very, very few fights in modern wow will let you lose 1 or two people 40 seconds in and still complete them. Old wow had them in spades. There are ofc many one shot mechanics in their own right - lightning orbs on jinrokh, elegons floor, stone guard taunting order, wind bombs, the slice thing that nukes the whole raid you have to stack for etc etc they did sometimes exist in old wow, but usually on either bosses halfway into an instance or on optional bosses.

You have been disproven times and times again. You can raid without VOIP and addons. Both are tools, probably helps, but not impossible to raid without.

We are talking about average raids, average players. Not your hardcore buddies on the ost populated server in the known universe. One exception in this case does not disprove the rule.

Complete lack of pugs is because of 10/25 splitting causing less people raiding 25 man to do 10 man pugs and 10 man raiders doing 25 man pugs, people are gearing up through LFR instead of pugging, also the server populations are smaller, naturally calling for less pugs.

No, it's because the raids are pointlessly difficult and you know this.

DPS and HPS requirements is sky high on which "simple" fight?

All of them, relative to what the average player can put out.

Okay, so if blizzard today would release a 50% nerf to T14, suddenly T14 would be the easiest raid tier ever? Good to know.

No, because it's no longer current.

[Deleted]

No, it's because the raids are pointlessly difficult and you know this. .

Yeah, that is why people are pugging 14/14 heroic every week now with openraid...

You have a very different opinion of what is one-shot mechanics from what I have, but okay.

Do you have any stats to back up your claim that current raid has more one-shot mechanics? Actual number of one-shot mechanics from previous raids? Until you come up with your stats you just have an empty claim. It is upon you to prove yourself right, not us you prove you wrong.

+Can we give up this bullshit that you could 8 man bosses before but now you need 11 people.

Enrage timers is pretty much non-existant in MoP. Heck, patchwerk in naxxramas required more dps from the average player than current raids needs. If you were good enough to 8-9 man bosses in WotLK/Cata, then you are good enough to 8-9 man bosses in MoP.

[Deleted]

Yeah, that is why people are pugging 14/14 heroic every week now with openraid...

So what? That some people somewhere are doign that changes nothing as far as what the average raider can be doing. please, just stop making this argument or I will start saying that raids need to be clearable by people who can't even log in, because they occupy the same place on the bell curve.

You have a very different opinion of what is one-shot mechanics from what I have, but okay.

Do you have any stats to back up your claim that current raid has more one-shot mechanics? Actual number of one-shot mechanics from previous raids? Until you come up with your stats you just have an empty claim. It is upon you to prove yourself right, not us you prove you wrong.

I don't actually, it is however on the forum somewhere.

+Can we give up this bullshit that you could 8 man bosses before but now you need 11 people.

No. Not likely to give up true stuff, sorry.

Enrage timers is pretty much non-existant in MoP. Heck, patchwerk in naxxramas required more dps from the average player than current raids needs. If you were good enough to 8-9 man bosses in WotLK/Cata, then you are good enough to 8-9 man bosses in MoP.

if ofc has moved. Which is the bit you don't want to hear about.

it's odd, you simulataneously say you can't find good players AND ALSO at one and the same time claim that the game hasn't got harder for the playerbase.

Who has it got easier for? the fairies at the bottom of the garden?

[Deleted]

I don't actually, it is however on the forum somewhere.

You mean this thread
http://www.restokin.com/2013/04/the-...tion-overload/
that ignores a large part of the boss abilities and is completely biased?

Also if it was that thread, it says nothing about one-shot mechanics. It just counts every mechanic available in the dungeon journal as a mechanic.

No. Not likely to give up true stuff, sorry.

Sigh. Beyond words.

The fact that you deny that you can kill MoP bosses with less than 10 people is hillarious.

Guess what, you could 9 man bosses in WotLK, you could 9 man bosses in Cata, you could 9 man bosses in MoP. The only raid tier that actually involved a boss that was easier to 9 man than 10 man is MoP, which is stone guards heroic. Several guilds chose to 9 man that boss because it was easier than 10 manning it.

[Pua]

Oh my, people can never accept defeat.

You haven't contested a single point of mine in the last two pages; instead, you've repeated diatribes like the above, then repeated what you've already said and has already been discounted for reasons you also, for some reason, haven't contested.

I'll let you answer why that is.

Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

Okay, here is one for you then, come up with a better methodology. Checking some instances stats 1.5 years after they have been released is simply not viable. Checking first - last boss shows the average difficulty of the instance.

First:

We. Are. Talking. About. Mists. Of. Pandaria.

How many times must I repeat this before you even acknowledge it? Your deliberate baiting, repetition and ignoring of counter arguments is becoming old. Why are you ignoring the Mists drop off?

Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

Second:

The last boss does NOT show the average difficulty of the instance. We know this, because it does NOT show where people gave up. We DO know that people are giving up, because the drop since Mists launched is against all previous trends that we've seen, and is out of kilter with the subscription drop. Why are you ignoring this?

Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

You get these results after 1 month of progress.

You keep using the one-month metric, and it's hopelessly flawed for reasons already explained (multiple times) to you. Why do you keep ignoring them?

Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

So, to summarise Firefly, these are the questions I want you to answer or admit you don't have an answer to them:

1) My recent commentary about the drop in normal raiders, in Mists of Pandaria alone, is uncontested. Why?
2) You are prattling about "1.5 years since release", when I'm not. Why?
3) You are claiming that the last boss provides an average difficulty of an instance when it doesn't. Why?
4) You keep using the one-month metric, even though it's almost irrelevant. Why?

Seriously, cut the shit. You're now trying to choke all debate in what I deem to be an important topic by continuously posting irrelevant data, and ignoring everyone who's correcting you on it. You're also baiting other posters while doing so, in order to present some semblance of authority on a topic you're grossly misunderstanding.

It's starting to annoy me.

Either answer the questions above and take them into account in any future commentary, or leave the thread to people who want to discuss why normal raiders are ditching so quickly from T14 to T15, and what can be done about it.

[Blackmist]

Enrage timers is pretty much non-existant in MoP. Heck, patchwerk in naxxramas required more dps from the average player than current raids needs. If you were good enough to 8-9 man bosses in WotLK/Cata, then you are good enough to 8-9 man bosses in MoP.

This is true, but it's entirely intentional. It's been stated a few times that they prefer to have your inability to execute the fight mechanics blocking your progress rather than lack of gear. The only exceptions this tier were Garalon and to some degree Elegon (who became quite a bit harder if you couldn't down him to certain percentages before a certain number of adds spawned). Sha was also gear check of sorts, but most had got their gear by then so it wasn't so bad.

Difficulty from my perspective.

7: Very easy. First week clear. 25 man had so much room for error that it was actually easier than 10 man. Puggable.
8: Hard. We didn't down YS until ToC had come out. I don't think I ever saw a pug that did anything past the first few bosses.
9: Every boss was killed in a few attempts. The weekly limit didn't help either. I don't think there was a single guild who wasn't trying heroic modes the day the last boss came out (only to discover a bullshit RNG-fest within). 10 man was being pugged from the start.
10: Initially hard. Although this was mostly down to LK, and a number of people being unable to get the fight right. 10 man became fully puggable later on.

11: We moved to 10 man at this point. This tier was fairly hard, and we took a while to clear it. We ditched our old guild, and made a lot faster progress later on.
12: This was a nicely paced tier. We got a new boss every week or so, and finally got Rag down a week before the nerfs. After that we made similar progress on the heroics, up to 6/7. The nerf was controversial, but it worked out very well for us in terms of our enjoyment.
13: Way too easy. Cleared it on the second week, and most of that was figuring out the best platform order for Madness.

14: Hard. We got stuck on a couple of bosses for quite some time.
15: Challenging. Some nice fights, with an emphasis on doing things right, rather than perfect rotations.

Completion time.

Longest - 10 > 8 > 14 > 11 > 15 > 12 > 13 > 7 > 9 - Shortest

[Deleted]

You mean this thread
http://www.restokin.com/2013/04/the-...tion-overload/
that ignores a large part of the boss abilities and is completely biased?

Also if it was that thread, it says nothing about one-shot mechanics. It just counts every mechanic available in the dungeon journal as a mechanic.

Doesn't look like a forum line to me.

Sigh. Beyond words.

The fact that you deny that you can kill MoP bosses with less than 10 people is hillarious.

Guess what, you could 9 man bosses in WotLK, you could 9 man bosses in Cata, you could 9 man bosses in MoP. The only raid tier that actually involved a boss that was easier to 9 man than 10 man is MoP, which is stone guards heroic. Several guilds chose to 9 man that boss because it was easier than 10 manning it.

ok, so lets go back this question -

You say that the playerbase is now unable to raid properly, but you also say that raids are easier. They can't both be true.

Pick one.

[warningsigns]

My guild has been stuck on Horridon for like 8/9 weeks now. This week we have pretty much thrown in the towel and have given up. We gave horridon 8 week of tries but could never get him. This week no raid scheduled and we are down two more raiders. Don't do LFR. Only want to run normal. Oh well my sub runs out in 2 weeks anyway. Before MoP my guild could historically clear 95% of all normal content. This expansion has pretty much killed the guild.

[Deleted]

You haven't contested a single point of mine in the last two pages; instead, you've repeated diatribes like the above, then repeated what you've already said and has already been discounted for reasons you also, for some reason, haven't contested.

I'll let you answer why that is.

Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

Provide a question.

First:

We. Are. Talking. About. Mists. Of. Pandaria.

How many times must I repeat this before you even acknowledge it? Your deliberate baiting, repetition and ignoring of counter arguments is becoming old. Why are you ignoring the Mists drop off?

Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

Why did you OP involve tiers other than MoP then? Obviously we are talking about other tiers aswell. Also you can not discuss MoP without taking other tiers into account, you have to compare MoP with something. I am not ignoring the MoP drop off. I am putting the blame on different sources than you.

Second:

The last boss does NOT show the average difficulty of the instance. We know this, because it does NOT show where people gave up. We DO know that people are giving up, because the drop since Mists launched is against all previous trends that we've seen, and is out of kilter with the subscription drop. Why are you ignoring this?

Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

I have not been checking the last boss only. I have been checking the difference between the first and the last boss. That shows how many people gave up on the way to the last boss, and how many people are still stuck trying to reach it. That shows the instance as a whole. If 50% of the guilds get stuck on boss 4, well then that shows up on that data, as those guilds have killed the first boss, but not the last boss. Therefor they show up as a guild that killed the last boss.

So yeah, checking last boss/first boss gives an idea of the instance as a whole. If 20% of the guilds got stuck on second boss and 30% of the guilds got stuck to the fifth boss, than naturall that is 50% of the guilds that did not kill the final boss.

You keep using the one-month metric, and it's hopelessly flawed for reasons already explained (multiple times) to you. Why do you keep ignoring them?

Provide an answer, or admit that you haven't one.

I never claimed it to be perfect. I asked for what could be a better metric. Using the current data straight from WoWprogress like you did in the OP is beyond insane. Anyone with any experience in mathematical data would tell you that.

We could check 2 months if that makes you more comfortable? I feel like 1 month contains the least corrupt data, the most even playing field.
1 month is more than enough time for any guild to kill the first boss of a given instance. As long as a guild kills the first boss, the rest of their progress is irrelevant. Since then it would show up on that data if 80% of the guilds are stuck on 1/12.

Do you have any reason to use any other metric? And for what reasons is that metric superior? Please answer.

Seriously, cut the shit. You're now trying to choke all debate in what I deem to be an important topic by continuously posting irrelevant data, and ignoring everyone who's correcting you on it. You're also baiting other posters while doing so, in order to present some semblance of authority on a topic you're grossly misunderstanding.

It's starting to annoy me.

Either answer the questions above and take them into account in any future commentary, or leave the thread to people who want to discuss why normal raiders are ditching so quickly from T14 to T15, and what can be done about it.

So wait? Calling out your data with more relevant data (not saying it is the most relevant but far more relevant than any data you provided yourself). Asking people to have data backing up their claim, i.e. Injin saying there are more one shot mechanics than ever with 0 data to back it up with.

I mean, geez. You can not even back your own points up. I can. This is getting old.

The reason that I have to keep repeating myself, is that you keep ignoring the facts that completion rate is higher than ever before and less % of guilds are getting stuck on bosses in average than ever before. You have not yet answered that.

ok, so lets go back this question -

You say that the playerbase is now unable to raid properly, but you also say that raids are easier. They can't both be true.

Pick one.

Why not? They are not mutually exclusive.

[Deleted]

Why not? They are not mutually exclusive.

Oh good, you just agreed that your use of clearance rates is useless.

Cheers.

[Deleted]

Oh good, you just agreed that your use of clearance rates is useless.

Cheers.

Fail to see how I did. You are getting sad now.

I am starting to understand why people say
"Dont go to the R&D forum, the trolls there will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience".

Still waiting for your data to show that there are more oneshot mechanics than ever.

You make claims with 0 data to back it up with. Come back when you got something real to say.

[Deleted]

Fail to see how I did. You are getting sad now.

if it's possible that the playerbase is getting worse over time, then you can't use clearance rates to prove anything. in fact any variability in the playerbase will make such a comparison invalid.

The only one worth looking at is the Mop one. And that shows that raids difficulty is off the charts.

I am starting to understand why people say
"Dont go to the R&D forum, the trolls there will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience".

Still waiting for your data to show that there are more oneshot mechanics than ever.

it's on the forum somewhere. i'm not going to do a data analysis for someone who will just ignore it anyway.

You make claims with 0 data to back it up with. Come back when you got something real to say.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that attumen, shannox, marrowgar or anub has more one shot mechanics than jinrokh, really. unless they are a stubborn little goat, ofc.

[Floopa]

What one shot mechanics exist in ToT?

Jinrokh - 0 (1 if Heroic)
Horridon - 0 (1 if Heroic)
Council - 0 (0 if Heroic)
Tortos - 0 (0 if Heroic)
Megaera - 0 (None if Heroic)
Ji-kun - 0 (0 if Heroic)
Durumu - 1 (3 if Heroic)
Primordius - 0 (1 if heroic)
Dark Animus - 0 (1 if Heroic)
Iron Qon - 0 (0 if Heroic)
Twins - 0 (0 if Heroic)
Lei Shen - 0 (5 if Heroic)

So 1 encounter in ToT has a "1-shot mechanic" and even then it's on an ability which is easily dealt with anyway. The OP doesn't show anything except his ability to ignore 30% HP nerfs and damage nerfs to bosses and 30% boosts to DPS, healing, and absorption effects.

[Deleted]

I don't think anyone is going to argue that attumen, shannox, marrowgar or anub has more one shot mechanics than jinrokh, really. unless they are a stubborn little goat, ofc.

Jin'rokh got 0 one shot mechanics.

Yeah... and mimiron got more one-shot mechanics than feng the accursed. What is your point? You need to check the tier as a whole.

it's on the forum somewhere. i'm not going to do a data analysis for someone who will just ignore it anyway.

I have not ignored any data provided so far.
I wont ignore it if it is actual data collected in a reasonable way. The point is that you have not provided any data at all and make claims. Until you provide something more solid your statement is 100% irrelevant.

if it's possible that the playerbase is getting worse over time, then you can't use clearance rates to prove anything. in fact any variability in the playerbase will make such a comparison invalid.

The only one worth looking at is the Mop one. And that shows that raids difficulty is off the charts.

If players are getting worse and raid clearance rating is going up, that is further evidence that raids are getting easier.

Though if you choose to ignore that, since I think that player skill is a hard factor as there is no way to mathematically prove it.
Statistics shows that

MoP raids are easier for the MoP population than Cata raids was for the Cata population and WotLK raids for the WotLK population.


How can you tell MoP raid difficulties is off the charts if you only look at MoP raids? You got to look at other tiers to have a baseline. You cant just compare MoP with nothing.

---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 12:32 PM ----------

What one shot mechanics exist in ToT?

So 1 encounter in ToT has a "1-shot mechanic" and even then it's on an ability which is easily dealt with anyway. The OP doesn't show anything except his ability to ignore 30% HP nerfs and damage nerfs to bosses and 30% boosts to DPS, healing, and absorption effects.

I guess not dispelling the debuff on Dark Animus is also oneshot.
I would say also Tortos stone breath.
Fusion slash as tanks on Lei-Shen can also push tanks off the platform. Can be considered a one-shot mechanic.

[PaladinBash]

Community: raiding should be harder and have actual progression and roadblocks and show you're skilled and blah blah blah
Blizz: if we do it everyone will hate it and rage they have to do anything
Community: no blizz trust us we know what's better for ourselves than you, just make it like BC come on it was best expansion blah blah
Blizz: okay, we'll try it out with a few new options that still let you do easier things if you want
Community: WTF BLIZZ I CAN'T GET PAST THE SECOND BOSS OF THIS TIER
Blizz: lal

Blizz gave you forum whiners that wanted BC back what you wanted. Now you're all getting sore bums over it because you have to stop being bad and lazy to do raids. You ever wonder why they made LFR? Or gearing up easier? It was because it's hard to make guilds keep progressing when they can't instantly beat most of the content and just work on a few tough bosses. That's hard to do. They made the game easier for that reason, none of this "caterin 2 casoolz" garbage I see spewed whenever something gets changed.

[Pua]

Provide a question.

It's absolutely fucking obvious in the section you've quoted what the question is.

Grow up.

Why did you OP involve tiers other than MoP then? Obviously we are talking about other tiers aswell. Also you can not discuss MoP without taking other tiers into account, you have to compare MoP with something. I am not ignoring the MoP drop off. I am putting the blame on different sources than you.

Some of the results, tier to tier, are interesting; particularly the jumps in Cataclysm and, particularly, the jump from Cataclysm to MoP.

The concentration is on MoP, however, because it’s the data set with the least number of variables.

I have not been checking the last boss only. I have been checking the difference between the first and the last boss. That shows how many people gave up on the way to the last boss, and how many people are still stuck trying to reach it.

“Stuck” and “gave up” are two entirely different things. The evidence clearly shows that guilds are giving up on the way to T15, and this is in direct contradiction to all prior trends.

THAT is why your first to last comparison is irrelevant. We know guilds are giving up, and your choice of data isn’t highlighting where.

So yeah, checking last boss/first boss gives an idea of the instance as a whole. If 20% of the guilds got stuck on second boss and 30% of the guilds got stuck to the fifth boss, than naturall that is 50% of the guilds that did not kill the final boss.

We know guilds don’t give up if they can’t kill the final boss. We know that, because guilds that start a tier have (until MoP) tended to start the next one.

As long as a guild kills the first boss, the rest of their progress is irrelevant. Since then it would show up on that data if 80% of the guilds are stuck on 1/12.

It’s obviously relevant – depending on the size of a tier, there might be multiple places where a guild get stuck, but they don’t give up. Your data doesn’t capture where guilds are giving up.

Do you have any reason to use any other metric? And for what reasons is that metric superior? Please answer.

The main reason for using the T14 to T15 comparison is because it removes most of the variables that plague other tier to tier comparisons.

So wait? Calling out your data with more relevant data (not saying it is the most relevant but far more relevant than any data you provided yourself).

Your data, for the simple reasons listed in this sole post, is less relevant than mine; objectively so because you’re drawing conclusions from data that has significantly more variables than mine.

More importantly, though, calling me out as you’ve done with validity on occasion, has helped me to confirm most of what I thought. I wasn’t always correct, however – the data you presented clearly shows that certain end bosses from the past were comparatively more difficult than they are now (Arthas and Yogg-Saron, specifically).

I thank you for that.

But it’s at this point, over the last couple of pages, where you’ve stopped contributing to the thread, and simply tried to close it with boorish reassertions of what has already been logically dismissed, while ignoring anything that’s contrary to your belief. Oftentimes, completely ignoring it and failing to even acknowledge that some of it was ever said.

I mean, geez. You can not even back your own points up. I can. This is getting old.

You know, full well, that was I’m saying is meted out by the evidence. And repeating what I said, just to look clever, is infantile.

Cut it out.

The reason that I have to keep repeating myself, is that you keep ignoring the facts that completion rate is higher than ever before and less % of guilds are getting stuck on bosses in average than ever before. You have not yet answered that.

It’s not been ignored, it’s been dismissed. It’s not relevant because:

a) It doesn’t show where guilds are giving up and we know they are.
b) Percentages getting stuck isn’t relevant when only better guilds are trying in the first place.

You keep repeating it, without realising that your assessment is doomed to failure unless you can reliably account for the above (among other criticisms).

You can’t.

Therefore, it’s been dismissed.

[Deleted]

What one shot mechanics exist in ToT?

Jinrokh - 0 (1 if Heroic)

3 - orbs, pool, massive AOE phase.

Horridon - 0 (1 if Heroic)

Agreed.

Council - 0 (0 if Heroic)

Sul sandstorm, sand traps, loa.

Tortos - 0 (0 if Heroic)

Rockfall, furious breath.

Megaera - 0 (None if Heroic)

Rampage, ice beams, cinders.

Ji-kun - 0 (0 if Heroic)

DPS too close after downdraft.

Durumu - 1 (3 if Heroic)

Melee too close, maze, life drain.

Primordius - 0 (1 if heroic)

Thing that hits you for a million ubnles healed, massive AOE, cleave effect in front of him will one shot.

etc

So apart from all the one shot mechanics, yeah there aren't any.

[Floopa]

I guess not dispelling the debuff on Dark Animus is also oneshot.
I would say also Tortos stone breath.
Fusion slash as tanks on Lei-Shen can also push tanks off the platform. Can be considered a one-shot mechanic.

Some things to note:
Matter Swap wont automatically 1 shot you. It depends on the HP of both players. Personal CDs can save you too. A Monk using Diffuse Magic would take 90% less damage so even if Matter Swap wasn't dispelled it would probably only deal 45-50k damage.

You can heal through Stone Breath with healing CDs.

Fusion Slash knocking tanks off the platform on Lei Shen isn't a 1 shot mechanic. It should never happen given you want to face the boss in certain positions relative to the 'edge' anyway. As I said, the only 'true' 1 shot mechanic lies with Durumu if we're not including Heroics. If including Heroics then Lei Shen has the most 1 shot mechanics.

3 - orbs, pool, massive AOE phase.

Healable.

Sul sandstorm, sand traps, loa.

Healingable. Shadowed Loa will 1 shot if your DPS are silly. Should we count failure to tab and press buttons as a 1 shot mechanic? I don't think so.

Rockfall, furious breath.

Both quite healable with appropriate CDs.

Rampage, ice beams, cinders.

None of these 1 shot you. Periodic damage is not 1 shotting.

DPS too close after downdraft.

Good thing all tanks have a way of increasing their movement speed by a huge value for a brief period of time (roll, TL, charge, HL, LS, DA).

Melee too close, maze, life drain.

Why would tanks not be in melee? I mentioned maze and said yes it can 1 shot. Life drain doesn't 1 shot. It's periodic damage.

Thing that hits you for a million ubnles healed, massive AOE, cleave effect in front of him will one shot.

Periodic damage is not 1 shotting. the 'massive AoE' is reduced to nothing by having 2-3 people in melee range. Cleave will only 1 shot Rogues with <500 ilvl. Rogues can then survive it with Feint/glyphed CLoS/CD.

None of the things you mentioned 1 shot you. They'll kill you if not healed, or if you don't use a CD but they don't outright destroy you.

I forgot the other 1 shot mechanic on Durumu which knocks you off the platform. The name eludes me though because you have about 10 minutes to run out of it's terribly small cone.

[Deleted]

I understand, if we avoid the one shot mechanics, they don't one shot you. lol

jesus H christ.

t14 ofc is even worse.

[Osmeric]

I understand, if we avoid the one shot mechanics, they don't one shot you. lol

The first rule of Tautology Club is the first rule of Tautology Club.