View Poll Results: Do you enjoy the L90 talents?

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  • Yes, and I love more than one!

    43 7.14%
  • Yes, but only Invocation.

    38 6.31%
  • Yes, but only Rune of Power.

    16 2.66%
  • Yes, but only Incanter's Ward.

    32 5.32%
  • No, I loathe all three!

    415 68.94%
  • I'm actually neutral on the talents, so I can't say one way or another.

    58 9.63%
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  1. #141
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Hunter's have a talent that changes rotation and effects dps, as do priests, as do shamans, as do pallies, mages aren't being singled out with talents thjat impact dps
    Personally I don't like shaman 90 talents so I'll leave it at that. I don't know hunters that well. I do however think priest/paladin talents blow the mage ones out of the fucking ocean.

    This is the difference I see:

    The priest and paladin 90 talents (DPS spec) both provide means to handle situations: patchwerk, spread AoE, stacked AoE for instance.

    The mage 90 talents make situations more difficult to handle: they either make you hard-cast, hold you in place, or require you to take damage.

    As a comparison with a pure class, the lock talents (which I think are far from the best talents) are still of the first category: They give you means to handle taking damage (note, this is different than requiring damage to be taken), movement, or AoE.

    The rogue talents (which have had to have numerous fixes) are also of the first category: They give means to handle lack of melee uptime, fast target switching, and patchwerk.

    No other class has a 90 row that make situations more difficult to handle. Right now it looks like mages have to choose between the least of 3 evils, not the best of 3 boons.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-15 at 12:51 PM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Personally I don't like shaman 90 talents so I'll leave it at that. I don't know hunters that well. I do however think priest/paladin talents blow the mage ones out of the fucking ocean.

    This is the difference I see:

    The priest and paladin 90 talents (DPS spec) both provide means to handle situations: patchwerk, spread AoE, stacked AoE for instance.

    The mage 90 talents make situations more difficult to handle: they either make you hard-cast, hold you in place, or require you to take damage.

    As a comparison with a pure class, the lock talents (which I think are far from the best talents) are still of the first category: They give you means to handle taking damage (note, this is different than requiring damage to be taken), movement, or AoE.

    The rogue talents (which have had to have numerous fixes) are also of the first category: They give means to handle lack of melee uptime, fast target switching, and patchwerk.

    No other class has a 90 row that make situations more difficult to handle. Right now it looks like mages have to choose between the least of 3 evils, not the best of 3 boons.
    Yeah, thats the problem, they do not add anything. Pick your poison is the problem.
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  3. #143
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Hunter's have a talent that changes rotation and effects dps, as do priests, as do shamans, as do pallies, mages aren't being singled out with talents thjat impact dps
    Priest, Paladin, and Hunter are all click the button when it comes off cooldown, and are all instant (except Powershot/Barrage, which most hunters don't get), fun, AoE abilities (with the one exception of Execution Sentence), and they don't affect DPS NEARLY as much as Mage talents do. Shamans are a bit different as Elemental, as, yes, they get Elemental Blast, but it's still a hard-hitting, fun, ability that gives you a random secondary stat. You could also get the empowered pets for bonus damage (as both offensive and/or defensive cooldowns). At least they're fun. They do affect DPS a bit more than the other three classes, but none of them are nearly as impacted as us with a boring ass ability that makes us unviable should we choose not to use it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-15 at 09:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    No other class has a 90 row that make situations more difficult to handle. Right now it looks like mages have to choose between the least of 3 evils, not the best of 3 boons.
    This is the reason we hate them.

    No other class has ANY tier that is "Choose the worst of three evils".

    In a way, our Bomb tier is somewhat of the same.

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  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Yeah, thats the problem, they do not add anything. Pick your poison is the problem.
    Yeah, and I mean other (dps)speccs can choose not to take anything if they want to without severly effecting their dps or rotation. But we MUST TAKE something, not only for the +15% dmg, but also to avoid getting OOM. (and thats true for frost and fire as well)

  5. #145
    Bloodsail Admiral Well's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeHMeH View Post
    What it comes down to for me is that we pretty much lack 15% dmg, but if you keep up the level 90 talent you do the dmg you are supposed to do. So give everything 15% more dmg for mages and make the talents something els.
    This. Exactly this. They do not feel like something you want to manage, but instead something that you need to manage.


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  6. #146
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeHMeH View Post
    What it comes down to for me is that we pretty much lack 15% dmg, but if you keep up the level 90 talent you do the dmg you are supposed to do. So give everything 15% more dmg for mages and make the talents something els.
    It comes down to more 12-13%. If they scrapped this with a fun talent, they could just give us 12-13% across the board.

    If they give us a DPS ability (e.g., Paladin, Hunter, Priest, Shaman, etc), they'd have to drop it to 5-10%, depending on how much of our DPS it will do.

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  7. #147
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awildpidgeyappears View Post
    It has nothing to do with being lazy. Have you done Heroic Dark Animus yet? Try getting halfway through an Evo and you get targeted by an Anima Font, so you have to move or die. So you move. And you start to Evo. And you get targeted again. So you move. And you Evo. And you get targeted again. Etc.

    When it takes 8-10s to get the buff reapplied, all the while doing reduced damage (as you're moving AND without the buff), there's nothing fun or interesting about that. I'm not lazy—I'll do whatever I have to do to keep that buff up, but I don't have to enjoy its poor design while I'm doing it.

    And be honest, you know you aren't thinking to yourself every minute, "Boy, I love applying this stupid maintenance buff every minute! I'd MUCH rather be doing this than DPSing!"
    There's an addon, called Deadly Boss Mods.. Maybe you've heard of it? It gives these timer things that tell you when stuff is going to happen. Is it that hard to evocate a "bit early"? It's not just animus that has things.


    These little things is what makes a good mage, which these forums seem to lack.
    You LEARN to overcome little problems, and make them work..


    Every dps class has some sort of maintenance buff.. weather it takes 1 gcd and lasts 15s, or takes 2 sec and lasts 1 min...





    Not directed towards anyone specifically, but I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.
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  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    There's an addon, called Deadly Boss Mods.. Maybe you've heard of it? It gives these timer things that tell you when stuff is going to happen. .
    > Boss Mods
    > Anima Font

    Not sure if trolling or stupid

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition View Post
    > Boss Mods
    > Anima Font

    Not sure if trolling or stupid
    Le meme arrows XD

    But I actually agree with spaace, regardless of not being able to use dbm for anima font, even on animus you don't have to move so much that you'd have to delay an evo more than a few seconds, if you are even a few tenths of a second in when you get targeted, finish and blink, not hard

  10. #150
    High Overlord Vaelkder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awildpidgeyappears View Post
    It has nothing to do with being lazy. Have you done Heroic Dark Animus yet? Try getting halfway through an Evo and you get targeted by an Anima Font, so you have to move or die. So you move. And you start to Evo. And you get targeted again. So you move. And you Evo. And you get targeted again. Etc.

    When it takes 8-10s to get the buff reapplied, all the while doing reduced damage (as you're moving AND without the buff), there's nothing fun or interesting about that. I'm not lazy—I'll do whatever I have to do to keep that buff up, but I don't have to enjoy its poor design while I'm doing it.

    And be honest, you know you aren't thinking to yourself every minute, "Boy, I love applying this stupid maintenance buff every minute! I'd MUCH rather be doing this than DPSing!"
    Had to clean the monitor after spitting out my morning coffee, laughing, at the ribald way this was written (poor monitorhas been washed a LOT recently!).

    I have only cleared Heroic Jin'Rokh, as yet, but I've also noticed that I have to watch and pray to see that Evo actually GIVES the buff, and all this while planning where to dash during Lightning Storm, tossing out as much DPS as I possibly can, and trying to contribute.

    I can't yet imagine what it must be like to participate in an encounter where you can't finish your two-second Evo cast, let alone keeping up your DPS with the buff.

    My hat is off to everyone who has accomplished this feat!

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  11. #151
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    There's an addon, called Deadly Boss Mods.. Maybe you've heard of it? It gives these timer things that tell you when stuff is going to happen. Is it that hard to evocate a "bit early"? It's not just animus that has things.

    These little things is what makes a good mage, which these forums seem to lack.
    You LEARN to overcome little problems, and make them work..

    Every dps class has some sort of maintenance buff.. weather it takes 1 gcd and lasts 15s, or takes 2 sec and lasts 1 min...

    Not directed towards anyone specifically, but I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.
    Okay, and evo is currently buggy and doesn't grant the buff. RoP has a HUGE restriction on it, and IW causes you to take damage (making you unviable on a few fights if raid damage doesn't come quick enough, otherwise, you'll end up getting hit by something painful)

    I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not. How you worded everything and you just saying "OH DBM MAKES UP FOR BUGS, ROP, AND IW" makes YOU seem like the ignorant one here.

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  12. #152
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    Dislike them all as l00 talents, but I'd like to see Incanter's Ward as a re-designed Mana Shield, i.e. base-lined. Invocation is good. RoP is ok. None of them are fitting as level 90 talents. I agree with those who think we require a warlock-esque remake.

  13. #153
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Dislike them all as l00 talents, but I'd like to see Incanter's Ward as a re-designed Mana Shield, i.e. base-lined. Invocation is good. RoP is ok. None of them are fitting as level 90 talents. I agree with those who think we require a warlock-esque remake.
    The remake is required for spec-wide issues. The L90 talents (and the L75 talents as well) just require a replacement

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  14. #154
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    What they should simply do is make the current level 75 talents base spells for their respective specs, move the current level 90 talents to the level 75 tier, make them cooldowns, increase all other spell damage accordingly and give us new level 90 talents.

    New level 75 talents

    Since the Mage Bombs are now base abilities for their respective spells, and new level 90 talents have been implemented, the old level 90 talents are now the level 75 talents and turned into cooldowns instead of requirements.

    Invocation
    Channeled
    2 min cooldown
    Succesfully completing an Evocation cast causes you to deal 15% additional damage for 20 seconds.

    For fights with moving.

    Rune of Power
    1.5 sec cast
    2 min cooldown
    Replaces Evocation
    Place a Rune of Power on the ground, which lasts for 20 seconds. While standing in your Rune of Power, your mana regeneration is increased by 75% and your spell damage is increased by 15%.

    For fights without moving.

    Incanter's Ward

    Remains unchanged. Never used it. No idea how good it works in PVP. Not gonna touch it.

    New level 90 talents

    The new level 90 talents for making Mages awesome again.

    Empower Armor
    Instant
    Empower your armor, making you assume a pure Arcane/Fire/Frost form. Mana regeneration is turned off while this is active. Lasts uncil cancelled.

    As it turn of mana regeneration, if would be smart to use one of the level 75 talents after having had Empower Armor active for some time.

    • Arcane:
      Empower your Mage Armor, reducing the duration of harmful effects used against you by an additional 25% and allowing you to stack one additional Arcane Charge at no additional cost. Also reduces the increased mana cost per Arcane Charge by 20%.
    • Fire:
      Empower your Molten Armor, reducing all damage taken by an additional 6% and increasing the damage done by your damage over time spells by 100%.
    • Frost:
      Empower your Frost Armor, increasing your armor by 50% and gives all your damage dealing spells a 30% chance to deal 10% additional damage.

    Summon Ally - Can't think of a catchy name so fast
    Instant
    3 min cooldown

    • Arcane:
      Summon an Arcane Golem that will fight by your side for 30 seconds. This ally will deal melee damage to your target and inflict all enemies within 8 yards of your target with Arcane Resonance. Arcane Resonance increases your damage done to enemies inflicted with it by 10%. Arcane Resonance allows Arcane Barrage to hit all targets inflicted with it for 15% of its damage.

      Arcane Resonance allows Arcane Barrage to hit additional targets on top of its own maximum of four targets (one per Arcane Charge). Let's say there are five targets: four will be hit with Arcane Barrage's effect and Arcane Resonance allows it to also hit that fifth target for 15% of the damage it would cause to your target.
    • Fire:
      Summon a flock of Phoenixes, swirling around your target dealing damage for 30 seconds. While these Phoenixes are attacking your target, your Fire spells will hit all targets within 8 yards of the target at reduced damage based on the amount of targets hit.

      If your attacking two targets, you'd hit each target for 60% damage = 120%. Three targets would be hitting each target for 45% damage = 135%. Four targets would be hitting each target for 40% damage = 160%. Five targets would be hitting each target for 35% damage = 175%. Six targets would be hitting each target for 30% damage = 180%. Etc. As the amount of targets increases, your total damage dealt to them also increases.
    • Frost:
      Empower your Water Elemental, transforming his Waterbolt into Hydro Blast, increasing its damage done and hitting all enemies within 8 yards of your target for 30 seconds. Also lowers the cooldown of Freeze by 15 seconds.

      Hydro Blast turns the Water Elemental into an AoE monster. Also, reducing the cooldown on Freeze allows the Mage to cast more Ice Lances for increased damage.

    Magic Knowledge
    Instant
    3 min cooldown
    Increases your critical strike, haste and mastery by 10000 for 30 seconds.

    For those that aren't interested in a fancy effect and just want a simple, easy to use spell.

    Obviously, the values that I've put in here would have to be balanced out. These changes would make my Mage way more appealing. I would still be playing my Mage if I wasn't forced to keep a level 90 talent up so that I can actually deal my maximum damage output. They shouldn't be required to bring your output to your usual maximum. Talents should allow you to deal extra damage, on top of your usual maximum.

    Never thought I'd quit my Mage, but I have. It's just too frustrating to either cast Evocation every minute, stand in the same spot for one minute or soak some hits before I can deal my maximum damage while questing.

    Thank you Blizzard for ruining my favorite class. I'd rather not have any level 90 talents at all, then have to deal with what you've given me.
    Last edited by Statix; 2013-06-15 at 06:26 PM.
    Statix will suffice.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    These little things is what makes a good mage, which these forums seem to lack.
    You LEARN to overcome little problems, and make them work..


    Every dps class has some sort of maintenance buff.. weather it takes 1 gcd and lasts 15s, or takes 2 sec and lasts 1 min...
    Despite some of your factual mistakes, I actually kind of agree with you. And one of the points to be made about the level 90 talents back in their original form used to be that they could be used to differentiate good mages from mediocre mages - if the assumption was that you stood in your Rune 85% of the time, anyone who would manage 90% could do more DPS.

    Now, I do like that design. I enjoy possibilities where I get to use all my experience as a caster, all my knowledge of a boss. I have written in the past of how I think the Rune of Power exemplifies what playing your mage well should be about. The problem is this: The talents never worked that way. The way the content currently is working (Animus is just one example), there is little to no possibility of planning ahead in many situations. Here's an exercise I think could be fun: Go into LFR, a part of your choice. Don't worry about dealing damage, just pick up a stopwatch. Time how many seconds in any encounter there are between events that could potentially make you have to move on normal or heroic difficulty. Not how much you actualy have to move. But how much POTENTIAL movement there is.

    Believe me when I say its a lot. Sure, you'd have to be unlucky to get charged by Horridon every time. Or to have Lingering Gaze on you constantly. But it can happen. And thats where you get punished for events far outside your own control, and get punished more heavily then other classes. That is the whole reason they needed to bandaid-fix Invocation in a way that didn't feel like getting kicked in the balls constantly (not regarding the bug right now) - Blizzard accepted that the situation was so that playing with Rune just made you feel needlessly punished constantly. So they made it so that Invocation works as a, albeit tedious, bandaid.

    Now, I'm the first to applaud any idea that makes us feel like playing a caster again. I've always thought mage wasn't about tanking stuff, but about chosing your footing carefully and then unleashing hellfire. I'm not one to whine about having to think how I play. But the level 90 talents just don't give us the tools for that now. They need to be changed in a way that removes the awkwardness of playing with them, especially their connection to mana-management. Make them be DPS-cooldowns of sorts. Make them cool in some way. But right now, they just don't work.

  16. #156
    I dislike them a lot. I also dislike the level 75 talents. The whole mechanic feels like something from Warlocks and Frost Bomb is just needlessly clunky.

  17. #157
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.

    I couldn't agree more. Get off your high horse.

  18. #158
    Hope they just BUFF us or something, just give us a passive skill that gives us 15% spell dmg and give us something useful for 90, just look at DK 90 talents, THOSE are useful and kinda fun
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  19. #159
    Mechagnome Serendia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Anyone who wants to do competitive DPS does too.

    Doesn't mean we like it either though
    True and that's just what I meant to say: I don't like it and I bet other don't
    Last edited by Serendia; 2013-06-16 at 01:57 AM. Reason: typo

  20. #160
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountandpetlover View Post
    True and that's just what I meant to say: I don't like it and I bet other don't
    Well from the massive amount of threads since MoP Beta to live, and the fact that our little poll agrees...

    I mean yeah, I'll never have enough voters to ever even consider submitting to GC, but we can get a decent read from this.

    I'll be honest, I am surprised that ~20% love at least one, if not, more than one talent (from the poll alone). Willing to bet that number is significantly lower if we got EVERY L90 Mage to vote. (Plus, there might be some idiots who came in here and never even played a L90 Mage)

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