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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zogarth View Post
    WoW is in major decline, so i would not say that it is working fine.
    No game can be number one forever, it won't die but its no surprise its popularity is in a decline after 8 years and closing in on 9. Everquest 1 and ultima online is still alive in that regards even if the population have gone down by now.

  2. #22
    They're so naive... the reason mmos aren't working in the west is because there haven't been any good mmos since WoW.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Archaeon View Post
    They're so naive... the reason mmos aren't working in the west is because there haven't been any good mmos since WoW.
    There have been plenty. There will be plenty more. They just don't have the numbers WoW does.

    People (developers, publishers and gamers) just need to make peace with the fact that a game can be a success without 10million+ subscribers.

  4. #24
    Only a handful of MMOs have actually "worked" in America to great success; Everquest, World of Warcraft... Asheron's Call... maybe?

    That isn't to say other MMOs have not been profitable in North America. Blockbuster titles in the genre are few and far between in America. Nor does NA see the ubiquity and month-to-month sensationalism of other markets.

    Take Two guy is pretty much OTM.


    People (developers, publishers and gamers) just need to make peace with the fact that a game can be a success without 10million+ subscribers.
    Cost of development is the issue for pubs. MMOs are extremely costly to produce.

    They're so naive... the reason mmos aren't working in the west is because there haven't been any good mmos since WoW.
    Actually, most MMOs after WoW are objectively better than World of Warcraft. The popularity of WoW being it's quality is a myth of consumers.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-06-02 at 12:36 PM.

  5. #25
    Pandaren Monk thewallofsleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Actually, most MMOs after WoW are objectively better than World of Warcraft. The popularity of WoW being it's quality is a myth of consumers.
    I completely agree. WoW is like the video game equivalent of Mac and Cheese. It's comfort food.

  6. #26
    The biggest issue with MMOs over the last few years is that they are tryhards that get shoved out the door before they are actually ready. There has been some really good idea's along with real potential for big success, but most just couldnt follow through with the whole picture. Some examples would be Warhammer and AoC, both were great games...on paper, but because of just a few decisions made by the dev or pub. they sank and had no real chance of success. That worst part in particular about Warhammer is that it was actually a much better game in mid closed beta then EA decided to push it and a lot of things were cut for release. Six months to a year more of dev time and we would be talking a whole different story about Warhammer now.

    I do think there are games that got it right though, GW2 and Rift for example. Sub model's are also a dying breed, a game releasing now as a sub just doesnt even have the same chance to be successful. The reason I believe this is because the mmo community is jaded to sub based games. It's not that people arent willing to pay a sub, its just that the releases just arent worth it. A recent example would be Swtor, had everything going in the right direction then you hit lvl cap.......(crickets)
    The issue isnt totally the dev or pub. faults either, gamers in general have come to expect quit a lot from mmo's. Trying to satisfy the entire community just isnt going to happen no matter what you do within the mmorpg environment.

    We can say all the negative things we want to about WoW, but it was the standard by which all mmo's are held up to. Not so much anymore, but I think our expectations are just getting bigger than what a 9 year old game can handle.
    Last edited by Gsara; 2013-06-02 at 02:33 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamanic View Post
    What? Only 2 successful MMOs in the western market and those are WoW and EQ? Hmm... to be honest he just invalidated anything else he might say, as he's proven that he doesn't have the correct knowledge on the subject to make any reasonable predictions on "success".
    Western Markets include Europe, while the guy is specifically talking about the USA.

    I'd need to see numbers to back it up but I could imagine that MMOs have a harder stance in the US compared to Europe.

  8. #28
    And FFXI is still pretty popular after all this time in the US. It seems invisible to most people though.
    While you live, shine / Have no grief at all / Life exists only for a short while / And time demands its toll.

  9. #29
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Actually, most MMOs after WoW are objectively better than World of Warcraft. The popularity of WoW being it's quality is a myth of consumers.
    No, not objectively at all, subjectively, or can you quote a source for your objectivity here? Your last part is also subjective.

    As to the piece, is he saying MMORPGS here or MMO's because planetside and the like can be considered successful.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    No, not objectively at all, subjectively, or can you quote a source for your objectivity here? Your last part is also subjective.
    You are asking me to source every gameplay mechanic across hundreds of MMOs?
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-06-02 at 04:49 PM.

  11. #31
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    You are asking me to source every gameplay mechanics across hundreds of MMOs?
    If youre going to claim that newer mmos are objectively better in a thread then sure. Otherwise its purely subjective. Its your belief that they are better, you have nothing to back up the assumption.

    Im being picky on your words because you claimed with such authority when in reallity its just your feelings nothing objective about it, going to unsubscribe to here before I derail this thread.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-06-02 at 04:48 PM.

  12. #32
    I am Murloc! Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    And FFXI is still pretty popular after all this time in the US. It seems invisible to most people though.
    I still have very fond memory of that game.

    FFXIV version2 will be out soon, and it will be sub based, but it isn't stopping me trying.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    If youre going to claim that newer mmos are objectively better in a thread then sure. Otherwise its purely subjective. Its your belief that they are better, you have nothing to back up the assumption.
    That's utter nonsense and impractical.

    Logically, we can infer that newer games have more modern tools at their disposal than a 9 year old game based on the Warcraft 3 engine. Technology in gaming is not regressive. Without even going into to the specifics of say the statistical breakdown of Rift's character attributes, the physics engine of Age of Conan, the class dependency of Everquest within a cohesive design, etc.

    Gameplay in video games is 100% objective truth. "When a player does X, Y happens"- that is gameplay.

    What you enjoy and don't enjoy is subjective.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-06-02 at 05:03 PM.

  14. #34
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Still havent objectively proven modern mmos are better. Oh look my FPS is better than your's updated game engine!
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-06-02 at 06:28 PM.

  15. #35
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    On the one hand, there really haven't been that many succesful MMOs in the US. At least not succesful in the long term.

    On the other hand, the Asian market has a glut of free to play MMOs. It's hard for me to imagine any one MMO being any more succesful there, simple because there are so many games for players to choose from. Only a fraction of those MMOs get released in the West. Keep in mind that most of WoW's declining subscription numbers have been attributed to Asia.

    And, realistically speaking, a large percentage of the MMOs released in North America are translations of Asian F2P MMOs, which often aren't tailored to Western tastes, and generally speaking are not handled well (poor localization, poor support, poor monetization, etc.).

    And I think that Western MMOs have failed to take off generally because they simply haven't been fun enough. MMOs aren't like other games, they need to have something to draw the player in and keep them hooked. Not just a steady stream of content, but compelling and fun gameplay. Very few MMos have done that as well as WoW.

    And besides, at this point, who knows if WoW's success can even be repeatable? It's the first and only MMORPG to achieve this kind of widespread, long-lasting success. How can we even really know exactly what it was that made the game skyrocket in popularity? The players certainly can't agree about what makes it good (or bad). It launched in a completely different landscape, where MMOs were rarely free to play and where there wasn't very much competition. Will another MMO ever be able to have the same sort of widespread appeal to so many different types of players? It's hard for me to imagine. The MMO genre is far more fragmented now, and players have so many more choices, choices which may appeal to their individual stylistic preferances better than a single game that tries to appeal to everyone.

    At any rate, back to the key issue here... I don't really buy the idea that an Asian MMO has an inherintly better chance at success, simply because it's so hard for games to stand out from the crowd. The Asian market is even more fragmented than the Western one.

  16. #36
    If there were better mmos than WoW, I would be playing them. And before you say it, I'm not playing WoW either so why am I not playing any of these "objectively better mmos" that have come out? The only mmo I'm playing at the moment is EVE online, and that's simply because it's completely different compared to any other current mmo atm. If I were to start playing a fantasy mmorpg then I would play WoW. Nothing else even comes close, and I've tried most mmorpg titles that have released since 2005 when I started playing WoW, and none of them hold my interest for more than a month or 2.

    New technology is all good and dandy, but if developers are too scared to walk away from the WoW cookie cutter recipe then what's the point? The major downfall of new releases is that they try to compete against a 9 year old leviathan that has been polished to perfection, by offering more of the same with a twist here and there but with no content to back it up.

    Developers need to stop releasing the same game with a new paint job without even having enough content to keep players interested. Take an extra year after the game is supposed to ship and go into full content generation mode. Just pump out that endgame stuff, or hell even make leveling more interesting.

  17. #37
    A lot of MMOs are seen as not "working" because their initial ambitions are unrealistically high. Pair that with hype and ultimately the letdown, every MMO since 2004 has basically been labeled "failure" because of not meeting goals and post-honeymoon player drop. Despite all that, most MMOs continue to be profitable enough to keep going. Just because there's an 800-pound gorilla in the room doesn't mean the rest of the games don't work.

  18. #38
    The Lightbringer barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zogarth View Post
    WoW is in major decline, so i would not say that it is working fine.
    Decline >/< Making profit.

  19. #39
    The new MMOs coming to the market may do one or two things better or prettier than WoW. But, there hasn't been a great MMO come out since WoW. A lot of that is due to WoW pushing the bar higher every year since it's release. It's almost impossible for any other MMO to catch up at this point. You would be hard pressed to release a new MMO with half of the polish, much less features of WoW. That's why new games are having trouble getting their foot in the door.

    That doesn't mean that the MMO market is dying in NA. People want to play a really great MMO and preferable the best MMO. It's just the problem that most of us have been playing the same MMO for so long now.

    It is my opinion that another great MMO will come along. People will flock to it just like the original WoW. I just don't think that it's been made yet. I'm not even sure it's in the works yet. Meaning, I don't think "Titan" will be the answer either. Titan is doomed to fail. Blizz will try so hard to make it good without being too similar to WoW that it will lack something. I equate the situation with just about every movie sequel ever made.

    But, somebody will crack the code. It's only a matter of time.

    EDIT: Just to clarify. I am not saying that all MMOs besides WoW are bad or anything of that nature.
    Last edited by Clash the DK; 2013-06-02 at 10:00 PM.

  20. #40
    also to the people saying wow is dying.......... it's not it's just the end of the expansion fever because there is only one patch left that will be out soon and wow has always IN HISTORY decline after a expansion release then rejuvinate back up or even more on a new expansion. i am not worried plus even if it went down more it;s still number 1 by far * it;s it like triple guildwars 2 and guild wars 2 is not even p2p.

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