1. #1

    What does the 10289/96 haste cap really do for you?

    So I finally got wrathcalcs working and loaded various reforges and I'm showing some strange things. First I assume wrathcalcs is mainly for single target and I think haste is better for single target anyway but with a 10296 reforge (slightly over in my case) it's only a 600 dps upgrade over a crit build. One of the reason's crit is so good is that your starsurge procs go through the roof on multi target fights.

    On horridon I can basically chain cast starsurge most of the time. So before my reforge I had about 14.5k crit, and after reforging to haste I have 10.6k crit for about a 6% difference (I just got wushoolays which puts me almost 800 hit over atm, and when i get my shoulder tier piece that will add another 800 crit to each build because it will let me use the resto chest as well, but anyway...) Not only is that less starsurge procs from that loss of crit but also a loss of nuke crits, especially starsurge which gains a pretty big multiplier from our set bonus. Personally to me having over a 50% crit rate on starsurge seems pretty important. Is it possible on multi target fights with greater percentage of our damage coming from starsurge that this haste reforge is actually a loss?

    I get that trinkets and the lgm under the rppm system will proc more but even wrathcalcs only shows a 600 dps improvement and as I said that was on single target. I haven't done enough real world testing to really know what the difference is but I also haven't been able to find a lot of discussion about this reforge. I read the whole BiS thread and saw a mention about an elitistjerks post about it but I couldn't find that. So is there in fact a determined crit to haste ratio or some amount of crit you don't want to go under that might even change depending on the amount of targets you can dot up?

    Please note this is not a BiS discussion, I assume once in full BiS the haste bp is marginal to get (I am at 529 ilvl myself). I'm more looking for theorycrafting on a crit to haste ratio depending on targets and more importantly to me, any real world experience people may have in trying out this bp as they are/were gearing up or if they have switched between the two... I can't seem to find much discussion about people making the transition and when they did it.

    Side note as I round out this embarrassingly long post: Do treants update dynamically with your procs? If cha ye's procs after you cast them, will they benefit from the trinket proc? Also, does anyone find any use for them on any heroic fights? I read on elitistjerks that they don't gain the buff from jihn rokh pools, and then the next possible fight I would consider using them on is ji kun but I usually do platforms. After that I would really consider Iron Qon but my incarnation damage at the end with all the dogs up seems very important as the faster we get those down the easier the kill. I know incarnation scales better with multi target and there are more of those thits tier but also the FoN bug with target switching (they delay by about 3 casts before switching) seems to doom this talent in this tier to me.
    Last edited by halfawake; 2013-06-02 at 09:22 AM.

  2. #2
    It's basically a wash. We're mostly going for it because why the hell not. It also puts you at the maximum number of usable SS procs by lowering the GCD to 1s.

    Also, yes, FoN updates dynamically, but with a delay.

  3. #3
    With higher crit levels, you will waste quite a lot of your SS procs. And the amount increases the more crit you get. Especially on multi-dot fights you will get more Starsurges than you can use.

    With 10296 haste, you would have that 10k crit. It will still be quite a lot to provide you more procs but in addition, it increases the rate you can cast Starsurges (provided you get enough procs), the amount of damage your dots will deal with the extra tick and provide more procs due to the extra tick with your dots.

    Wrathcalcs also assumes that your play is perfect. There is a quite new addition to it to help manage Starsurge waste and if it's set too low, crit's value is too high. The more SS procs you waste, the worse crit gets, basically. With 14k crit, it's not seldom that you will get another proc before you can use the first one, even in single target fights.

    To answer your question about treants: They scale dynamically with everything. With haste procs they seem to be slow to update it if the proc starts/ends during the treants.

    I suggest using them for Jin'rokh, Megaera, Twin Consorts, Lei Shen and Ra-den. The pools don't give enough bonus damage to compensate for the lost DPS from Incarnation compared to FoN. Megaera has very heavy single target moments where you don't really want to multidot (Rampages) and Incarnation isn't super important for the adds. Twin Consorts has a few adds but I usually ignore them as most raid teams have a good amount of cleave and they will die before your dots can tick for their full duration. Lei Shen doesn't have any super important multi-dotting scenarios where Incarnation shines. It depends on what part you're struggling on that fight. If the balls are a problem, go for Incarnation and use it when no other CDs are being used. Ra-den is quite obvious as FoN is used easily there when there aren't any adds alive and the lost few casts don't make Inc better.

  4. #4
    @ halfawake Like Alzu said you are comparing Haste to Crit in the same SS proc wastage, so its is natural to see only a minor DPS change since the stats are close together. With more crit your waste % will naturally rise. I'm also guessing there are people like me who just like the haste gameplay more.


  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Slippykins's Avatar
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    I gave my insight on the topic over here:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post21140318

    I explained the results obtained from a modified priority list of SimCraft and how it agreed with the ideas we extrapolated from WrathCalcs.

    Those tests were done with ~523 ilvl, if you're interested.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-06-02 at 08:01 PM.

  6. #6
    Well that's a very interesting read slippy. Also thanks to others for replying as well.
    I think I'll probably stick to this build for now and see how it plays out. I'm sure as I gear up the crit increase will wash out any concerns that I have. The only thing I still wonder about is not starsurge proc wastes but the amount of starsurges that actually crit. I'm also gonna give FoN a better shot and see just how they compare in real world situations (I'm worried about wushoolays which I just got and the delayed updating on the treants not making use of the proc fully).

    I guess the only thing I and many others could want for FoN would be faster dynamic updating and target switching : / I was thinking of a possible solution where the treants would just copy everything we do. In this case they would copy our dots as we are multi dotting and our nukes as we are casting them, but that might be too close to incarnation where it's just basically a flat damage increase. Then again, if those extra dots contributed to increased starsurge procs and reduced the problems of target switching it could be a very interesting implementation. This also makes FoN a viable talent for multi target fights although I know this is something that probably won't get implemented and is useless to post here as no one from blizzard will probably read it but I like throwing out ideas sometimes :P.

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