Shadowcraft - Combat vs. Assassination Theoretical DPS

[Stryk]

I recently received a 535 axe after having no luck with dagger drops this tier at all(still using 510/500) and switched to combat. After optimizing and reforming using shadowcraft, my theoretical dps was 216k. When I was still assassination(same gear minus the dagger and axe), my theoretical dps was around 186k. Naturally, I figured the 543 axe increased my theoretical dps by 30k. Isn't that too large of a dps increase for just one weapon? I know 4pc plays a big role but I am using 4pc as assassination also. Furthermore when I swapped my 510/500 daggers for upgraded 543/543 daggers I was only around the 195k dps range. Long story short, is shadowcraft's theoretical dps for combat too high? My rogue is named Kym on US-Shattered Hand. Any explanation would be greatly appreciated!

[Sheltx]

The 4 set is a lot better for combat than Mut, that being said it also pretty much requires you to stagger your cd's to avoid energy capping (well at least for me anyway 200 ms =/ ). Personally I was playing whatever spec I had better weapons for with a slight preference towards playing mut. I noticed the numbers were pretty similar in a raid envrionment with the same ilvl weps.

[Skipps]

The 4 set is a lot better for combat than Mut

That.
It takes some getting use to and some hardcore concentration, but the 4p T15 also has a "Hidden" effect that lowers your GCD by like .7 seconds during Shadowblades (prevents energy capping)

If you can master it, you are throwing out an Eviscerate every 1-2 seconds

Shadowcraft is correct though
On live - My DPS is 100-110k as Combat .... 70-80k as Assassination. The T15 4p bonus is THAT good

[Stryk]

I get that the 4pc is huge for combat but from what I've heard/read the sims show assassination ahead of combat and I'm having a hard time recreating that with shadowcraft. It just seems the disparity between the two specs is too large.

[Elbrondane]

The 4pc is definitely better for Combat, but the problem you run into is trying to play like the robot that SimC or ShC have you playing like. Once you miss a GCD or have a tiny bit of movement, you DPS is going to drop.

[Squirl]

Once you miss a GCD [...], your DPS is going to drop.

Pretty much this. Every half-second GCD during AR+SB is worth so much for Combat. It's just technically pretty much impossible to play Combat fully optimized because latency and the shoddy ability queuing system when it has to perform in such short intervals. There's also the fact that real fights really mess with KSp.

I do about the same DPS with both Combat and Assassination, but Combat sims ~35k higher. I can hit (or surpass, with good procs) my simmed DPS as Mut, but I just can't hit my simmed DPS as Combat. Maybe if I didn't play with 100-200ms with fairly common spikes, I could pull out another 10-20k with Combat. Tell someone to offer service on the fiber cables in my neighborhood and we'll see (seriously, they're just sitting there! D: ).

[Kael]

I get that the 4pc is huge for combat but from what I've heard/read the sims show assassination ahead of combat and I'm having a hard time recreating that with shadowcraft. It just seems the disparity between the two specs is too large.

I'm happy to run your char in SimC and see if there's the same disparity, but you'd have to log out in PvE gear first

It's possible that disparity does exist based on your current gear; certainly the abundance of hit you have isn't helping assassination stay ahead. That said, you'll suffer more from movement (time off-target) and having issues with ideal CD usage, and any mistakes you make in your rotation (which, due in particular to the spammy nature of combat are easier, for me at least, to make) will cause larger DPS disparity. One of the forum members here (Sessh or Verain or Shadowboy, I want to say, but it's been a while) did comparisons of top-end DPS vs. "bad-play" settings in SimC, and found combat to have one of the largest losses in the game. If playing combat either doesn't allow you to reach your potential or distracts you from boss mechanics, you should probably stick with assassination after you get a better MH.

---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 03:38 PM ----------

Tell someone to offer service on the fiber cables in my neighborhood and we'll see (seriously, they're just sitting there! D: ).

Tell me about it =( any lag spikes or FPS spikes (my CPU and GPU are ancient) are just killer. Big part of my motivation to not play combat.

[Stryk]

Thanks for the response Mugajak. I think the confusion stemmed from looking at: http://simulationcraft.org/530/Raid_T15H.html and then comparing those results with Shadowcraft. According to the BiS setup SimC has, Combat is shown at 223k DPS while Assassination is marginally ahead. When I switched to Shadowcraft, the disparity between the two specs were significantly larger. I'm assuming there must be a big difference in the way SimC and ShC model rogues and comparing these "DPS Rankings" provided by SimC would lead to issues. Going to try Combat tonight and see how it turns out. Also, logged out in PvE gear ^^

[Deleted]

If you can get every little bit of DPS from your cooldowns in Combat you can easily pull the same numbers as Assassination, but most people just cannot do this considering you pretty much need a <30ms to make use of it.

Any parries and such (very easy to get on a boss like Jin'rokh) will absolutely cripple your DPS unfortunately, which is why most people play the safe alternative in Assassination which is far more forgiving.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../Combat_Rogue/ - for example, only the Asian Assassination rogues pretty much beat the numbers I output in Combat and I had parries during my cooldowns since our tanks like to troll hard. The spec is up there but it's certainly not higher.

[Mormolyce]

One of my daggers is still 489 lol.

I picked it up a few weeks ago in an achievement run of MSV, it replaced my 476. Le sigh.

[Sesshou]

The 4 set is a lot better for combat than Mut, that being said it also pretty much requires you to stagger your cd's to avoid energy capping (well at least for me anyway 200 ms =/ ). Personally I was playing whatever spec I had better weapons for with a slight preference towards playing mut. I noticed the numbers were pretty similar in a raid envrionment with the same ilvl weps.

Um, no, the 4 set does not require you to stagger your cds. In fact, it makes staggering your cd's even worse than without the 4 set.

[Definition]

I'd just go Mutilate, reguardless of theoretical DPS. The only fight where combat is useful is Durumu, if you're cleaving walls down. (Still not as good as assass)

[Kael]

Thanks for the response Mugajak. I think the confusion stemmed from looking at: http://simulationcraft.org/530/Raid_T15H.html and then comparing those results with Shadowcraft.

I am seeing one interesting disparity between Shadowcraft and SimC, but yes, for your 510 vs. 543, combat is showing 10k ahead on SimC. 205k (combat) vs. 195k (assassination). Keeping the same OH, I'm showing assassination also at 205k with a 543 MH dagger (2/2 upgrade H (non-TF) off Megaera). They're closer in SimC than ShadowCraft for some reason, but swapping the MH in assassination shows fairly similar (9-10k) returns. Flu0r/pathal/shadowboy/ryme might make it in here to clarify/provide more insight into the simulations.

From that point, it's back to the question of whether or not you lose 10k (or die!) trying to run combat compared to running assassination, or fight mechanics. If you get a heroic dagger next, assassination should be the better choice again most of the time.

---------- Post added 2013-06-05 at 03:07 AM ----------

Um, no, the 4 set does not require you to stagger your cds. In fact, it makes staggering your cd's even worse than without the 4 set.

totally missed that comment earlier; thanks for putting the right word in. Don't stagger CDs as combat, folks.

[Stryk]

Ran Combat tonight and I was quite pleased at the results: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/9745/

If you compare this week's raid to last week(Assassination), I did anywhere from 10k-30k more DPS switching a 510 dagger to a 543 axe. I must admit though the speed/concentration/timing required to DPS perfectly during AR/SB is insane. I felt like I had to "predict" how many CPs would be generated and press buttons ahead of time or risk wasting CPs. I am playing with 80-110 ms which is far from the ideal <30ms. Combat is fun and all but I can't wait to get a 535 or even better 541 dagger and swap back mutilate.

I'd just go Mutilate, reguardless of theoretical DPS. The only fight where combat is useful is Durumu, if you're cleaving walls down. (Still not as good as assass)

Combat proved to be pretty useful on Horridon, Council, Iron Qon and Lei Shen in my opinion. Granted Assassination does just as well if not better but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Any parries and such (very easy to get on a boss like Jin'rokh) will absolutely cripple your DPS unfortunately, which is why most people play the safe alternative in Assassination which is far more forgiving.

Yeah I totally agree. I got spanked on Jin'Rokh due to high ms and just the way he is positioned at the start of the pool.

I am seeing one interesting disparity between Shadowcraft and SimC, but yes, for your 510 vs. 543, combat is showing 10k ahead on SimC. 205k (combat) vs. 195k (assassination).

Haven't used SimC much but ShC shows my current setup as Combat at 216k DPS. I swapped specs to Assassination and changed the 510 dagger to a 543 Iron dagger and ShC showed 196k DPS. At this point, I'm assuming the theoretical 216k DPS is impossible to attain in practice due to latency/reflexes issues. But I definately agree that when I get a dagger swapping back to Assassination is the way to go.