Could Blizzard Rectify the Story?

[Wildmoon]

D1&D2+LOD did have good story's for there time was it going to the theater and watching it good...No but it was not bad ether.

D3 story telling in a 2012 game fell flat on its face and it butchered the lore that was there before it.

Were you even there when D1 and 2 were released? They were criticized for their shallow story compare to other rpgs at that time you know that right? Like the post earlier in this thread said that playing Diablos for story is like watching porn for plot. This is coming from a gamer who really like Diablo 1&2. For rpg game story you couldn't get more generic and cheesy than D1,2,3.

[Shinzai]

Were you even there when D1 and 2 were released? They were criticized for their shallow story compare to other rpgs at that time you know that right? Like the post earlier in this thread said that playing Diablos for story is like watching porn for plot. This is coming from a gamer who really like Diablo 1&2. For rpg game story you couldn't get more generic and cheesy than D1,2,3.

I agree with this completely. As I've said before, Diablo has never been known for its plot. Just because it has a few books detailing a knock off of juedo-christian and old testament mythology, does not mean it's got great writing.

And my major problem with people who go on about its writing, is that Baldur's Gate was released a couple of years before Diablo 2. In all aspects, it was hugely better and an example of how these kinds of games can be done.

[paralleluniverse]

Nephalem disprove your argument.

Edit: I may aswell cite my reasoning:

"The Nephalem are the first generation of humans on Sanctuary. They are also known as Sanctuary's Children in the Sin War books. The Nephalem are the direct offspring of angels and demons, with the potential to be even greater than both."

Angels and demons had kids. They looked like humans. Demons do not look like humans for the most part. However, humans and Nephalem share a common physiology.

Further addendum:



Izual.

The more scrutiny the 'lore' for the games and world of Diablo is given, the less it holds up. In the end, it's not an airtight plot or world creation concept. It's full of plot holes, loop holes and a huge amount of contrivances. As I said, the story's just not that good over all, with lots of parts just making no sense or being contradictory to others.

No, Nephalem disproves YOUR argument, not mine. Nephalem are early humans. Humans are the offspring of angels and demons.

So how did Tyrael, an angel, turn into a human, which is an offspring of angels and demons. That's exactly my point. This is a massive plot hole.

Izual is a fallen angel. Notice that he's NOT a human, he doesn't look like a human either. If Tyrael is a fallen angel, he should look like Izual, not like a human. Angels CANNOT turn into humans because humans are angels+demons.

You have still failed to explain how it is possible that a angel turns into an angel+demon (a human), or how an angel turns into a form that looks exactly like an angel+demon (a human).

---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 04:13 AM ----------

Not to come off like a ass so don't take it that way but did you play D3? Because in act 4 the boss before you fight Diablo was a angel before his name was Izual.

Also I think the 2nd boss you fight in act 4 was one as well.

I mean angels turning into human, like Tyrael. Izual didn't turn into a human.

Because that's a massive plot hole. Angels cannot turn into what you get when angels and demons have sex with each other and procreate.

[Jtbrig7390]

I mean angels turning into human, like Tyrael. Izual didn't turn into a human.

Because that's a massive plot hole. Angels cannot turn into what you get when angels and demons have sex with each other and procreate.

I agree personally to me the whole D3 story is a massive plot hole. I have already done stated my opinion on it and I am far from impressed.

[Dhrizzle]

No, Nephalem disproves YOUR argument, not mine. Nephalem are early humans. Humans are the offspring of angels and demons.

So how did Tyrael, an angel, turn into a human, which is an offspring of angels and demons. That's exactly my point. This is a massive plot hole.

Izual is a fallen angel. Notice that he's NOT a human, he doesn't look like a human either. If Tyrael is a fallen angel, he should look like Izual, not like a human. Angels CANNOT turn into humans because humans are angels+demons.

You have still failed to explain how it is possible that a angel turns into an angel+demon (a human), or how an angel turns into a form that looks exactly like an angel+demon (a human).

I'm going to guess magic.

I mean angels turning into human, like Tyrael. Izual didn't turn into a human.

Because that's a massive plot hole. Angels cannot turn into what you get when angels and demons have sex with each other and procreate.

The events in D3 prove you wrong.

[Repefe]

Tyrael turned into a mortal, not human. That was not the problem. Him stating I will be wisdom was the fail. The whole Imperius act was a fail. End of act two was medicore. Whole act three (short of the spider queen) was fail. And diablo itself in D3 was just not wicked enough.

Diablo possesed Leah, character we were traveling with almost the whole game ... we should fight transformed Leah, not some generic red monster.

And you can say that story in D3 is not important, but that is true only for those who want to spend 1000 hours grinding in it. For those who play it till they beat it at all difficulties (which majority of players didn't even find worth the effort), the story is as important as in any other single player game. Also there is really no reason to do a poor job with the story. I can't imagine Blizz made the story bad intentionally.

[BenBos]

Tyrael turned into a mortal, not human. That was not the problem. Him stating I will be wisdom was the fail. The whole Imperius act was a fail. End of act two was medicore. Whole act three (short of the spider queen) was fail. And diablo itself in D3 was just not wicked enough.

Diablo possesed Leah, character we were traveling with almost the whole game ... we should fight transformed Leah, not some generic red monster.

And you can say that story in D3 is not important, but that is true only for those who want to spend 1000 hours grinding in it. For those who play it till they beat it at all difficulties (which majority of players didn't even find worth the effort), the story is as important as in any other single player game. Also there is really no reason to do a poor job with the story. I can't imagine Blizz made the story bad intentionally.

Any story that is played beyond the first time around is trivial at best.

Care to read any best seller book for 4 times in row without a pause?

Nope, your argument is invalid for a dungeon game, because it is typically set up like that.

Like I said: you don't play the latest Dungeons and Dragons boardgames for their stories: you do it to survive the dungeon and get the end boss (cfr D3 hardcore modes).

It is simply the art of this specific game design.

The one thing you can hold against Blizzard is that they overdid the voice acting and story telling. Blame that on the bad ideas Bioware promoted with SWTOR. Video games are ALL about game play, not listening to dumb NPC's.

A few more randomness would have been great, BUT people forget that wondering Elites makes up for the changing challenges, as D2 did not even have wondering packs of Elites.


---- tldr-----

But story is meaningless in dungeon crawlers, be that boardgames, miniatures or video games.

You could set up the background info with 5 lines of texte really.

[paralleluniverse]

Tyrael turned into a mortal, not human.

O rly?

Then why does he look like a human?

Also, a "mortal" is not a species, like fish, cat, human, cow, etc.

In how is Tyrael not a human?

---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 07:10 AM ----------

I'm going to guess magic.

The events in D3 prove you wrong.

Magic, my ass. You can't just say magic, the existence the magic required to turn an angel into a human (i.e. the offspring of angel+demon) or something that looks exactly like a human is in contradiction to established lore. It is not internally consistent.

[Shinzai]

No, Nephalem disproves YOUR argument, not mine. Nephalem are early humans. Humans are the offspring of angels and demons.

So how did Tyrael, an angel, turn into a human, which is an offspring of angels and demons. That's exactly my point. This is a massive plot hole.

Izual is a fallen angel. Notice that he's NOT a human, he doesn't look like a human either. If Tyrael is a fallen angel, he should look like Izual, not like a human. Angels CANNOT turn into humans because humans are angels+demons.

You have still failed to explain how it is possible that a angel turns into an angel+demon (a human), or how an angel turns into a form that looks exactly like an angel+demon (a human).

---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 04:13 AM ----------


I mean angels turning into human, like Tyrael. Izual didn't turn into a human.

Because that's a massive plot hole. Angels cannot turn into what you get when angels and demons have sex with each other and procreate.

How do you know that angels cannot turn into humans? They can turn into demons, so why not humans? The argument itself has no logic, given the shit that happens in the Diablo games.

Does Izual look like he could be a human turned into a demon? Yes. How could Angels give birth to humans if they're nothing like them? For a being made of light and vibrations, they clearly know how to procreate. For beings made of light and vibrations they can clearly be corrupted by demons. What would the physical form of one of these angels look like, since clearly, as stated, again, they can procreate?

And how does an Angel birthing a Nephalem disprove my argument? I'll type it out straight for you:

ANGELS GAVE BIRTH TO HUMANKIND. Ergo, they have to be like humans. A cat and a dog can't procreate, only to have a giraffe come out. Do you realise how stupid this plot point is now?

Therefore, angels are like humans. The story itself doesn't work because they've not thought about it properly. The light and vibrations shit doesn't fly, given that angels clearly have some kind of physical form. You can't fuck light or a vibration.

One other thing. You're trying to argue that this is some how a problem, but the fact that the god of the universe was created from a fucking space pearl, was a guy made out of crystal that just existed, because... it sounds cool. Anyway, this guy made out of crystals created a race of angels that were... vibrating light bulbs, which then went on to fuck with their mortal enemies and create humankind, yet the part where one of them turns into a physical being is what causes an issue with you. Seriously?

[Repefe]

Any story that is played beyond the first time around is trivial at best.

Care to read any best seller book for 4 times in row without a pause?

Nope, your argument is invalid for a dungeon game, because it is typically set up like that.

Like I said: you don't play the latest Dungeons and Dragons boardgames for their stories: you do it to survive the dungeon and get the end boss (cfr D3 hardcore modes).

It is simply the art of this specific game design.

The one thing you can hold against Blizzard is that they overdid the voice acting and story telling. Blame that on the bad ideas Bioware promoted with SWTOR. Video games are ALL about game play, not listening to dumb NPC's.

A few more randomness would have been great, BUT people forget that wondering Elites makes up for the changing challenges, as D2 did not even have wondering packs of Elites.

Ppl keep saying that, but "typically set up like this" is laughable argument. Arpg games typically suck ... that's not fault of the devopers, that's just how they are. Yeah, lets go with that excuse. Who forces Blizz to do the same story over and over anyway. Redardless the critique is not about the premise of the story. It's about the execution. There is no excuse for doing a bad job just because ... The D3 story could have been told much better without changin the premise, Blizz just failed to do so. And again ... for what reason ?

As for beating the challenges of the game, absoulte majority of players didn't even care about finishing D3 on all difficulties. If Blizz did the story badly because a fraction of players play D3 for the grinding "challenge" ... I think it's wrong strategy.

O rly?

Then why does he look like a human?

Also, a "mortal" is not a species, like fish, cat, human, cow, etc.

In how is Tyrael not a human?

I haven't seen D3 angel faces, so don't see where looks like human is argument for being a human. Angels can look like humans, but they are still angels. And being mortal means he is mortal angel. Though Imperius seem to be mortal as well the way he got dropped ... so yeah, there are multiple reasons why the scene sounds so dumb. Mortal certainly is one of them.

[Flaks]

Side-stepping this whole "Tyrael is/is not human" thing, my main beef with Tyrael was that he went from "don't give a shit about humans must stop demons" to "humans are da best I give up everything for them".

[Resentful]

Side-stepping this whole "Tyrael is/is not human" thing, my main beef with Tyrael was that he went from "don't give a shit about humans must stop demons" to "humans are da best I give up everything for them".

You know he could of fucking prevented Adriah being a douchebag if he was still an angel but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I'm just saying

[paralleluniverse]

Ppl keep saying that, but "typically set up like this" is laughable argument. Arpg games typically suck ... that's not fault of the devopers, that's just how they are. Yeah, lets go with that excuse. Who forces Blizz to do the same story over and over anyway. Redardless the critique is not about the premise of the story. It's about the execution. There is no excuse for doing a bad job just because ... The D3 story could have been told much better without changin the premise, Blizz just failed to do so. And again ... for what reason ?

As for beating the challenges of the game, absoulte majority of players didn't even care about finishing D3 on all difficulties. If Blizz did the story badly because a fraction of players play D3 for the grinding "challenge" ... I think it's wrong strategy.


I haven't seen D3 angel faces, so don't see where looks like human is argument for being a human. Angels can look like humans, but they are still angels. And being mortal means he is mortal angel. Though Imperius seem to be mortal as well the way he got dropped ... so yeah, there are multiple reasons why the scene sounds so dumb. Mortal certainly is one of them.

Angel's don't have faces. They're a manifestation of light and sound [Sin War trilogy]. How he looks like a human, not an argument for being a human? But the question I put to you was NOT whether or not looks like human implies he's a human, the question was why does he look like a human in the first place, i.e. why does a former angel now look like a angel/demon hybrid?

There's 2 parts to a human, an angel part and a demon part. Tyrael was an angel, where does the demon part comes from?

---------- Post added 2013-06-30 at 01:24 PM ----------

Side-stepping this whole "Tyrael is/is not human" thing, my main beef with Tyrael was that he went from "don't give a shit about humans must stop demons" to "humans are da best I give up everything for them".

Ummm. No, nothing could possibly be further from the truth.

Tyrael has always cared about humans from pretty much the beginning.

He gave the Horadrim the soulstones to entrap the Prime Evils when they were ravaging Sanctuary after the Great Exile, against the wishes of Heaven. In Diablo 2, he intervened to assist Marius and the hero in defeating Diablo, also against the wishes of Heaven. During the Sin War, he cast the final and deciding vote on the Angiris Council to save Sanctuary from being destroy by the Heavens, because he believed in the potential of humans.

No character cares more about the humans than Tyrael.

[Shinzai]

Angel's don't have faces. They're a manifestation of light and sound [Sin War trilogy]. How he looks like a human, not an argument for being a human? But the question I put to you was NOT whether or not looks like human implies he's a human, the question was why does he look like a human in the first place, i.e. why does a former angel now look like a angel/demon hybrid?

There's 2 parts to a human, an angel part and a demon part. Tyrael was an angel, where does the demon part comes from?

First. Explain why a "manifestation of light and sound" has a humanoid form at all.

Second, again, explain how a manifestation of light and sound can procreate with a demon.

Third, explain why the resulting offspring would be a human, or a humanoid creature with the same apparent physiology as an angel.

Fourth, explain how a manifestation of light and sound can become corrupted and twisted into a demonic creature.

Fifth and finally, explain why gaining a humanoid appearance is so strange after all of the above, especially given that their offspring look like that.

As I said previously, the plot and story is mostly nonsense, that sounds really cool. Reading too much into it just spoils the ideas. It's not solid writing, it's just very stylishly presented.

[Sanguinerd]

I thought it was really ridiculous how after each big setback a boss would tell you "no matter, you won't stop me a second time" or something of the sort.

Cydea, Azmodan and Diablo did this quite a few times to the point of me having to actually sigh at it.

[Flaks]

Ummm. No, nothing could possibly be further from the truth.

Tyrael has always cared about humans from pretty much the beginning.

He gave the Horadrim the soulstones to entrap the Prime Evils when they were ravaging Sanctuary after the Great Exile, against the wishes of Heaven. In Diablo 2, he intervened to assist Marius and the hero in defeating Diablo, also against the wishes of Heaven. During the Sin War, he cast the final and deciding vote on the Angiris Council to save Sanctuary from being destroy by the Heavens, because he believed in the potential of humans.

No character cares more about the humans than Tyrael.

He did all this because of his loathing for demons, not because of any love for humans.

[Resentful]

He did all this because of his loathing for demons, not because of any love for humans.

You know as much as I fucking hate this game I still know the entire history of it HE does like the humans hes the ONLY and single reason why the sanctuary world exist he voted no in terms of exterminating them. He violates the council rules when he was a angel still even though the high heavens have some retarded law saying DO NOT INTERFERE with the mortals I AM IMPERIUS I am a DICK what? Sorry anyway hes always cared for them and if it wasn't for the guy the entire once more world would of been completely wiped out by the angels.

You know how he was like before era? He hated humans the same as Imperius like he was racist as much as he was / close friends with him but when he saw this ''mortal/Nephilim'' sacrifice himself in addition the power they have he does his best to save them after that incident that was between if I remember correctly the sin war.

Hell he fucking turned mortal what the fuck for the sake of the them

God dammit that pissed me off

[Dhrizzle]

Diablo possesed Leah, character we were traveling with almost the whole game ... we should fight transformed Leah, not some generic red monster.

If you compare Diablo in the third game to previous incarnations (s)he has a slender waist, broad hips and even bits that could be construed as breasts.

Magic, my ass. You can't just say magic, the existence the magic required to turn an angel into a human (i.e. the offspring of angel+demon) or something that looks exactly like a human is in contradiction to established lore. It is not internally consistent.

Considering Anu's form is humanoid and angels have humanoid suits of armour it doesn't seem that much of a stretch for an angel-become-mortal to take on humanoid form.

Also it's part of the angel trope that they become human when they lose their wings. See Dogma and Legion for examples.

Anyway I don't think Diablo's magic system is sufficiently developed to have any consistency, it mostly seemed to be cobbled together out of plot devices.

[Zaqwert]

If they manage to drop those stupid ass pop ups where the Boss is telling you exactly what to do next that would be a great start.

[Repefe]

If you compare Diablo in the third game to previous incarnations (s)he has a slender waist, broad hips and even bits that could be construed as breasts.

Yeah, I know ... I just expected the corrupted Leah at least make another appearance. The one from start of act4 cinematic. More interesting than normal diablo.