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  1. #101
    I wish fire mages could summon 5 fire elementals at once

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyroblayze View Post
    So why not change the FightStyle in Simulation Craft to something other than Patchwerk? There are several options including HeavyMovement.
    No one uses sim with Patchwerk Style, most people use Light Movement or above.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    No one uses sim with Patchwerk Style, most people use Light Movement or above.
    I do.. It's a pure simulation of potential dps. Now I really don't use it to compare my numbers or anything, but to know if some gear change works or not. From light movement or something like that sure you get less dps, but does it tell you when you moved and how you maximized your dps? No it does not. So getting a light movement result as a fire mage might show lesser dps on simulation, but the reality is that you might only need to move 1-2 gcd's at a time and have instants ready for them, so the movement doesn't impact your dps at all. Fire is 1 of those specs that you simply can't sim movement reliably for, you can adjust your instants with fairly little if at all dps loss when moving. Now arcane in the other hand is a totally different story. But this kinda is a fire thread atm.

  4. #104
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    I don't use Simcraft at all because it's gone full retard on Mages this expansion.

    Issues aside, as far as DPS goes, I'm just going to gear up and do my thing; it's been working pretty well for two tiers now.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    I don't use Simcraft at all because it's gone full retard on Mages this expansion.
    You never go full retard

  6. #106
    Are there ANY top level mages that are frost? (talking Method, Blood Legion, DREAM Paragon and such) I don't believe any of them have gone or will go frost and I am inclined to take what they do over what you guys say you "have done" as frost.

    Frost is gimp, simple as that. YES, you can do good damage as frost, but it will never be the BEST damage you can do. If you want your guild to progress and do the best that it can, fire will be your choice (arcane if you have the gear for it on SOME fights). Barring very SELECT situations in certain fights (usually only on 25 man), Fire will do more dps when effort and min/maxing are applied.

    Please understand that I get that you should "play what you like" or "play what feels good to you". However, if we are talking raw numbers and what will do the absolute most damage per second to enemies in a raid, fire wins. Numbers do not lie.

    2 cents.
    Last edited by Dusteyy; 2013-06-15 at 03:44 PM.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusteyy View Post
    Are there ANY top level mages that are frost? (talking Method, Blood Legion, DREAM Paragon and such) I don't believe any of them have gone or will go frost and I am inclined to take what they do over what you guys say you "have done" as frost.

    Frost is gimp, simple as that. YES, you can do good damage as frost, but it will never be the BEST damage you can do. If you want your guild to progress and do the best that it can, fire will be your choice (arcane if you have the gear for it on SOME fights). Barring very SELECT situations in certain fights (usually only on 25 man), Fire will do more dps when effort and min/maxing are applied.

    Please understand that I get that you should "play what you like" or "play what feels good to you". However, if we are talking raw numbers and what will do the absolute most damage per second to enemies in a raid, fire wins. Numbers do not lie.

    2 cents.
    Those are not your typical raiding guild. They can't afford to for anything except the top spec, even if the damage difference is 1%. Not when you're going for the world first.

    However, there's lots of HM raiding guild who have a frost mage in their roster.

    Also, you can't compare a lambda raider vs a method/BL one. Some choice they do are made because it's good for their gear level, and it might not be a dps increase for others (like doing your opener with Mage Armor in fire spec, it's gonna be a dps increase for them NOW, it's not gonna be for 98% or the mage population).
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusteyy View Post
    Please understand that I get that you should "play what you like" or "play what feels good to you". However, if we are talking raw numbers and what will do the absolute most damage per second to enemies in a raid, fire wins. Numbers do not lie.
    First off, progression's all about consistency - and that's the main thing that fire lacks. Sure, fire can do more damage than frost and arcane, but it can certainly do a whole lot less if you find yourself with a bad rng. Furthermore, frost and arcane have far more control over their output than fire does.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Those are not your typical raiding guild. They can't afford to for anything except the top spec, even if the damage difference is 1%. Not when you're going for the world first.

    However, there's lots of HM raiding guild who have a frost mage in their roster.

    Also, you can't compare a lambda raider vs a method/BL one. Some choice they do are made because it's good for their gear level, and it might not be a dps increase for others (like doing your opener with Mage Armor in fire spec, it's gonna be a dps increase for them NOW, it's not gonna be for 98% or the mage population).
    Interesting you should mention that. Take a look at the thread I just started regarding mages and haste soft cap/mastery parsing:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ft-cap-Mastery

    Overall I would agree with you. You cannot simply copy them no matter your ilvl or skill level (skill level usually more of a determining factor). However, you can use them as a guide for what to be striving for. How they are min/maxing or what thresholds they are going for. Glyphs/talents they may be trying out (like this mage armor thing that is starting to emerge). If you are skilled enough to know what you are doing and know how to min/max properly using sims, AMR, rawr or whatever, frost is just simply not an option. Think of it like this, frost can be great with an immense amount of time and effort put into it to min/max properly and nail down the proper situational rotations on each boss, but if you put that exact same time and effort and put it into a fire spec, you WILL do more damage overall. Guaranteed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boxedwaffle View Post
    First off, progression's all about consistency - and that's the main thing that fire lacks. Sure, fire can do more damage than frost and arcane, but it can certainly do a whole lot less if you find yourself with a bad rng. Furthermore, frost and arcane have far more control over their output than fire does.
    I am going to have to disagree on this one. If your fire dps is fluctuating a significant amount, you are doing something wrong. Yes, there will be times when the stars, planets, universes and galaxies all align perfectly and you get some insanely awesome numbers, but the majority of the rest of the time my dps is rather sustained from fight to fight and raid to raid (obviously more on certain fights than others). Think of it this way, frost and arcane can sustain well, but have no potential to do significantly more. Fire on the other hand, sustains well also (in my experiences and in what I have seen from other good fire mages) but has the potential to kill it once you get amazing gear and can also play with a certain level of competence.
    Last edited by Dusteyy; 2013-06-15 at 04:34 PM.

  10. #110
    Interesting you should mention that. Take a look at the thread I just started regarding mages and haste soft cap/mastery parsing:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ft-cap-Mastery

    Overall I would agree with you. You cannot simply copy them no matter your ilvl or skill level (skill level usually more of a determining factor). However, you can use them as a guide for what to be striving for. How they are min/maxing or what thresholds they are going for. Glyphs/talents they may be trying out (like this mage armor thing that is starting to emerge). If you are skilled enough to know what you are doing and know how to min/max properly using sims, AMR, rawr or whatever, frost is just simply not an option. Think of it like this, frost can be great with an immense amount of time and effort put into it to min/max properly and nail down the proper situational rotations on each boss, but if you put that exact same time and effort and put it into a fire spec, you WILL do more damage overall. Guaranteed.


    While I totally agree with what you are saying, you forgot to mention one thing : Enjoyment.
    I enjoy Arcane/Frost immensely more than Fire. And in my guild right now, I do not need to get that extra damage to guarantee my spot or whatever. We killed leishen 2 weeks ago, we raid 2 times/week, and i'm doing my fair share of dps (i'm actually first most of the time).
    Yes, I do work a lot on my frost spec, much more than almost any other of our raider, but I enjoy it so thats not a problem.

    Being able to play the spec I enjoy the most, with friends, and kill bosses together is what i'm looking for now, I don't care about being the most damaging spec anymore ^^.

    Yes, some people don't have that luxury but they choosed this path, no one is forcing people to play in a progression/world first guild. I choosed another path
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  11. #111
    Well Dustey, you are basically restating the common point that min-maxing is the most important thing to do for raiding. And its obviously something very inherent of RPGs to min-max your character to the best of your abilities. But the point with Frost, at least for me, is not about min-maxing per se. It's about having fun.

    I would, just like you, argue that anyone who performs worse with Fire is probably not the best of players. And I'm not making the point that people should "play what they are comfortable with" because that somehow makes them play better. Thats ridicioulus. Fire is clearly and consistently the best specc for mages right now (at least those surpassing a certain gear level, which is everyone in heroic raiding), and anyone arguing differently is arguing against all evidence. Consistency isn't even an issue anymore, in either direction, and it shouldn't be used in discussions about heroic raiding most of the time. If you want to min-max your mage, and you're not playing fire, then you're doing it wrong.

    But thats the issue then: Min-maxing your mage, following what world-first-raiders do, has become such a fetish for the community. I've seen blues argue this point occasionally, but it has never seemed to catch on - min-maxing matters VERY little. It is a nice and very fun exercise in many RPGs, and people enjoy investing time into their characters to see them become stronger. But it should only ever go so far.

    People should do whats fun and comfortable first. They shouldn't argue that it's the best thing to do, not at all. I would never argue for me playing Frost to be the perfect choice in terms of DPS. But I WILL argue that it doesn't matter for progression. Unless you're going for world-first, or on some very gimmicky encounters (remember Spine, anyone...), playing the perfect specc is less then important. Of course, making sure everyone is gemmed and enchanted properly is something that ensures smoother progress. And I wouldn't argue for people to run arround playing holypriest-DPS just for the hell of it.

    But we're at a point in the game where speccs are reasonably close to each other. Frost is by no means so far behind Fire that you are honestly gimping your raid with it. As an example: I see your guild recently downed Horridon heroic. It's a fight I've seen quite a few guilds struggle with both on normal and heroic. Now don't get me wrong, every bit of DPS helps in such a situation (even though it isn't the best of fights for fire imo, but I digress). But whenever I've seen these guilds play, I could instantly name a dozen things they could and should have done differently to improve their raid other then making people switch speccs.

    As a raid leader, you likely have experienced (I know I have, at least back in 25man) that your own performance can suffer if you are heavily invested in coordinating and micromanaging the other parts of your raid, but in the end, the raid gets a boss down because you made the right call in a certain situation. Basically, in my eyes it's the same about speccs: Maybe its a slight loss of performance in one way. But as long as you perform everything else optimally, and generally play well, you will not suffer from that small loss. It is obvious that having the "right" specc and playing well would be even better. But thats my point. Outside of hardcore toplevel raiding, I haven't seen many people who perform that strongly. There is always something else you could (and should) fix first before you go changing peoples speccs. I quite strongly believe that ultimately, they (and your raid) benefit more from that approach.

    Look at it this way: If my guild ever reaches an encounter that we absolutely cannot beat, and I know that it's down to me doing 5% more dmg, all it takes is about 15 minutes for me to respecc and reforge/regem (though, again, that situation really doesn't happen in usual heroic raiding). If I had been the correct specc all along, but didn't know which target to chose, when to move, or when to use my cooldowns, these things would take a lot longer to learn anyway.

    TL; DR: Teach people how to play, not what specc to pick.

  12. #112
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Those are not your typical raiding guild. They can't afford to for anything except the top spec, even if the damage difference is 1%. Not when you're going for the world first.

    However, there's lots of HM raiding guild who have a frost mage in their roster.
    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...ltifarious+Inc
    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/suramar/Logic
    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/suramar/CFT (my guild)

    Pretty much the only decent guilds on our server have Frost Mages in all of them.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusteyy View Post
    . If your fire dps is fluctuating a significant amount, you are doing something wrong. Yes, there will be times when the stars, planets, universes and galaxies all align perfectly and you get some insanely awesome numbers, but the majority of the rest of the time my dps is rather sustained from fight to fight and raid to raid (obviously more on certain fights than others). Think of it this way, frost and arcane can sustain well, but have no potential to do significantly more. Fire on the other hand, sustains well also (in my experiences and in what I have seen from other good fire mages) but has the potential to kill it once you get amazing gear and can also play with a certain level of competence.
    Frost and arcane have far more sustained dps. The only thing that fire has going for it is the possibility of a sweet combustion. In regards to "a certain level of competence," fire is more finicky with strategies. If you look at logs with top fire mage parses, you'll notice that most of their damage stems from tunneling the boss, and - if available - spreading combustion to the adds. This is because they stack adds on top of the boss for that big combustion, and they're allowed to delegate mechanics to others. However, if your raid leader is a rogue who cares not for anyone but himself - and least for the ranged - then your boss strategies are going to cater more towards melee getting high ranks while the ranged is mandated to execute mechanics that they're neglecting. The reason that this impairs fire the most goes back to combustion: If you're denied the opportunity to spread a sweet combustion, your dps is going to suffer tremendously.

    But let's go back to the crux of the matter: Your initial argument was that fire is the best spec for progression, so having amazing gear at the start of a new tier isn't an axiom that you can play. If you'll recall correctly, the average item at the start of heroics for tier (for top guilds, since that seems to be where you're drawing all your evidence from) was approximately 515. At that gear level, fire was still incredibly volatile. While you could have pulls where all the stars aligned, you were just as likely to have pulls where nothing worked out the way that you wanted it to. Furthermore, because this is progression, you can't have people neglecting to do mechanics for the sake of their own parses when there are, and I quote Eihwaz on this, "Going for the world first." Why do you think top guilds don't release logs until everything's on farm? It's so people aren't squabbling over top parses at the expense of the guild's progression.

  14. #114
    @Eihwaz and Ilya, you guys did EXACTLY what I said not to do. I stated, multiple times that I was not in any way referring to the "enjoyment" of the game or playing it "just for fun". I am talking strict numbers here. Literally min/maxing to the extreme. If you parse everything out, fire does the top damage, on average. I am not talking about enjoyment, playing with friends, being happy, being gay or whatever, I am talking numbers. If you are looking to be the best asset to your guild's progression, you SHOULD be fire, nuff said. I hope you get it this time.

    @Polar (and Ilya), I know there are frost mages out there, but that does not debunk my original argument that fire will do more. The reason I say if you want to be the best asset to your guild you can be you must go fire is because it truly does do the most damage. NOW, please understand that 99.9999% of the time, guilds that are not BL, Method, Paragon and the like will not be wiping because of slivers of % of damage missing because you are frost. Any subpar guild is wiping the majority of the time due to incompetence. Since that is the case, going frost or arcane or whatever is fine if that is what you prefer. However, if you are looking to be the absolute best you can be, fire is it. No question and I don't think anyone here would really argue that.

    @Boxed, there is always going to be people boosting certain classes to get ranks on WoL. I would not read into that too heavily. I am not basing my statements about fire dps on WoL top rankings. I am looking at more specific logs from people I know and people who are good mages in top level world first guilds. Yes, spreading combustion does insane dps, I get that. This is not what makes fire's damage higher than frost/arcane. The overall spec as a whole on fights in ToT does more damage than frost or arcane regardless of stacking or not stacking to spread combusts.

    Your point about ilvl is well taken into consideration. I did however address that in my original post: "You cannot simply copy them no matter your ilvl or skill level (skill level usually more of a determining factor). However, you can use them as a guide for what to be striving for. How they are min/maxing or what thresholds they are going for. Glyphs/talents they may be trying out (like this mage armor thing that is starting to emerge)." If you do your due diligence and study up properly, you will see that there is a threshold for ilvl in which you are to switch from frost/arcane to fire once your crit is at a high enough %. I was assuming that factor was included in my "competence" point.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Boxedwaffle View Post
    Frost and arcane have far more sustained dps. The only thing that fire has going for it is the possibility of a sweet combustion. In regards to "a certain level of competence," fire is more finicky with strategies. If you look at logs with top fire mage parses, you'll notice that most of their damage stems from tunneling the boss, and - if available - spreading combustion to the adds. This is because they stack adds on top of the boss for that big combustion, and they're allowed to delegate mechanics to others. However, if your raid leader is a rogue who cares not for anyone but himself - and least for the ranged - then your boss strategies are going to cater more towards melee getting high ranks while the ranged is mandated to execute mechanics that they're neglecting. The reason that this impairs fire the most goes back to combustion: If you're denied the opportunity to spread a sweet combustion, your dps is going to suffer tremendously.

    But let's go back to the crux of the matter: Your initial argument was that fire is the best spec for progression, so having amazing gear at the start of a new tier isn't an axiom that you can play. If you'll recall correctly, the average item at the start of heroics for tier (for top guilds, since that seems to be where you're drawing all your evidence from) was approximately 515. At that gear level, fire was still incredibly volatile. While you could have pulls where all the stars aligned, you were just as likely to have pulls where nothing worked out the way that you wanted it to. Furthermore, because this is progression, you can't have people neglecting to do mechanics for the sake of their own parses when there are, and I quote Eihwaz on this, "Going for the world first." Why do you think top guilds don't release logs until everything's on farm? It's so people aren't squabbling over top parses at the expense of the guild's progression.
    Seeing how I just disagreed with Dusteyy in a quite lengthy post of my own I'm gonna seem quite silly here, but you are just wrong. Fire isn't the better specc because people use gimmick tactics on some bosses. Fire is the better specc because IT DEALS MORE DAMAGE.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I just argued heavily about why pure theoretical numbers don't matter in many cases, and all your points about that are fine and dandy. But fire isn't just better then Frost or Arcane on "some" fights. It's better then them on almost all fights. If people are stacking adds on the boss because it helps fire burn those very adds into a nice little roast, then that is an advantage for fire, not a proof of its inconsistency.

    I can't be certain of course, but from my impression and personal experience, Fire had the ability to perform consistently almost from the start of this content. The volatility that keeps getting mentioned isn't to be disregarded completely. But in the case of top-guilds, they tend to get their gear quite quickly. Achieving good crit numbers in the first week wasn't too hard. They played Fire from that point onwards because, as it stands, its still the most mobile of our speccs, it has the best ability to cleave in situations where it counts, it doesn't get outscaled or suck horribly at moving, target switching or any number of things. Fire is better at "gimmick" strategies, sure. But that doesn't mean its worse at filling necessary roles for the boss mechanics - seeing how, in reality, that means killing adds 90% of the time, I'd actually argue that Frost is noteably WORSE at that. Fire is the best specc we have available right now, except in some very limited situations. That doesn't mean one has to play it. But looking for ways to claim that fire isn't the best specc is just wrong.

    Also, on a sidenote: Your concept of top guilds and their raiding is extremely, laughably wrong. Do you honestly believe they don't look at their own logs? Do you HONESTLY believe that they would jeopardize a world first for a better parse? I'm at a loss of how to respond to that...


    @Dusteyy: Read my post again. Skip the pointless insult this time. I did read what you said, and I adressed it at length. Again, in short - Fire IS the best specc, noone should or could argue against that. If you want to perform the best for your guild, I bet you all the gold on my account that there is a lot more that you can do other then going fire though. And that sentence is true for 90% of all mages out there. That doesn't make going Fire BAD in any way. It just makes it much less mandatory then you make it out to be.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilya View Post
    @Dusteyy: Read my post again. Skip the pointless insult this time. I did read what you said, and I adressed it at length. Again, in short - Fire IS the best specc, noone should or could argue against that. If you want to perform the best for your guild, I bet you all the gold on my account that there is a lot more that you can do other then going fire though. And that sentence is true for 90% of all mages out there. That doesn't make going Fire BAD in any way. It just makes it much less mandatory then you make it out to be.
    Ha ha, actually, I did end up going back and reading your entire post which is why I added the (and Ilya) after the @Polar because what I said to polar addressed what you mentioned in the entirety of your post. Basically, all this considered I agree with you. Please don't think that I am insulting anyone. Things get misconstrued on the interwebz. I am not here to insult or patronize anyone, just state what I have researched to be fact. All that said, you are right and I am pretty sure we agree with eachother at this point My whole premis is this: Fire does the most damage of all 3 specs for mages. Period. That is it. Taking that into consideration, logically speaking if you want to be the absolute best asset to your guild you can be, you should be fire. Pretty simple concept, yea? And I am 99% sure you would agree with that.

    Now, lets address the other point. While the above premis is absolutely true, as I stated before, for the guilds that are less hardcore and have several what I like to call "competence issues", going frost is NOT going to "harm" your raid in anyway BECAUSE (and that is a big because) you are most likely (99.99999% of the time) not wiping due to a fairly neglidgible reduction in dps (approx 5% or so). For basically all of these guilds, the wiping is caused in most part due to lack of skill or competence, not dps. Now, that said, an increase in dps CAN make certain situations easier in making the fight shorter, making certain mechanics from adds not be as significant if they die faster, yadda yadda yadda. However, when we take alllllllll of this into consideration, the actual impact that a spec change from fire to frost would have on lets say a 25 man raid is probably even less than negligible, and more like non-existent.

    I hope that clears things up without giving anyone the avenue to spout of some nonsense like "SEE, I KNEWZ U WERE GUNNA SAY FROST WUZ BTTRR!!!!!".

    PS, my personal belief and philosophy when playing wow, and what I expect from every single one of my raiders is to be the absolute best you can be. That means playing the highest min/max spec you have and parsing/simming/running/practicing/researching it until you are blue in the face, even if you dont like it. I justify this in that my enjoyment is not linked to any spec, but rather topping the charts. I could care less what spec I have to play to do it, but my TRUE enjoyment and happiness comes from seing "Dusteyy" at the top of the charts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boxedwaffle View Post
    Why do you think top guilds don't release logs until everything's on farm? It's so people aren't squabbling over top parses at the expense of the guild's progression.
    I did also want to address this and I am glad Ilya did so that it reminded me I am with Ilya on this one, your statement here is quite simply asinine. They don't release logs so that nobody steals their strategies or specs because they have put so much time and effort into the researching of them that they don't want to simply give it out for free. They are constantly logging, simming, parsing, min/maxing everything 100% of the time during their world first progressions.

    If you think, for one second, that the top level guilds do not release logs because they don't want people to "squabble" over them because it might "harm" someone else's progression you are a special kind of stupid. They could give 2 shits about other guilds progression as long as it is behind their own.
    Last edited by Dusteyy; 2013-06-15 at 07:18 PM.

  17. #117
    PS : I reread you posts Desteyy, and it might no have been obvious, but I agree with 99% of it .

    Have a good day ^^.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    PS : I reread you posts Desteyy, and it might no have been obvious, but I agree with 99% of it .

    Have a good day ^^.
    Ha, good to hear. I know they are a little long and that is simply because I am sitting in a server room rebuilding a RAID 5 array and have nothing better to do but sit here on my laptop and dissect things on MMO

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusteyy View Post
    Ha, good to hear. I know they are a little long and that is simply because I am sitting in a server room rebuilding a RAID 5 array and have nothing better to do but sit here on my laptop and dissect things on MMO
    Been there this afternoon, I spammed the forum . One of the HDD crashed ?
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  20. #120
    When checking fire in raidbots you should use all parses and list by median.

    If you use top 100 parses and average, fire is going to look awesome, but you are basically just looking at RNG luckers.

    Looking at top 100 parses for fire is bad because fire dps varies a lot, if you are lucky, you do 250k dps if you arent you do 150k dps, so every parse in top 100 is going to be 250k+ and someone who does not get this is thinking frost at 200k is worse.

    That being said, I prefer fire for the playstyle and also I feel fire>ice
    Fire and Frost are quite close, even at higher ilvls, but for fire you really need a proper crit chance (I would say 40%+ buffed).

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