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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Been there this afternoon, I spammed the forum . One of the HDD crashed ?
    Well, its a 4 disc RAID 5 array. 1 of the HDD's crashed and we hot swapped it on Friday but then drive 2 failed during the rebuild of drive 3 so now we have 2 failed drives which means the RAID array is comprimised and has to be rebuild from scratch. Good thing we have backups!

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-15 at 03:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawgsnstuff View Post
    When checking fire in raidbots you should use all parses and list by median.

    If you use top 100 parses and average, fire is going to look awesome, but you are basically just looking at RNG luckers.

    Looking at top 100 parses for fire is bad because fire dps varies a lot, if you are lucky, you do 250k dps if you arent you do 150k dps, so every parse in top 100 is going to be 250k+ and someone who does not get this is thinking frost at 200k is worse.

    That being said, I prefer fire for the playstyle and also I feel fire>ice
    Fire and Frost are quite close, even at higher ilvls, but for fire you really need a proper crit chance (I would say 40%+ buffed).
    Okay, first things first, take raidbots with a grain of salt. Secondly, and more importantly, if you are going from 150k dps to 250k dps as fire you are doing something VERY VERY VERY wrong. At the absolute [U]most[U] I would say that your dps should fluctuate, on the same fight, about 20-25k, at the MOST, like absolute most. If you are fluctuating over 100k dps on a single fight, you got some serious problems not related to spec my friend.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilya View Post
    Also, on a sidenote: Your concept of top guilds and their raiding is extremely, laughably wrong. Do you honestly believe they don't look at their own logs? Do you HONESTLY believe that they would jeopardize a world first for a better parse? I'm at a loss of how to respond to that...
    Well, based on your loss of response, I apologize for giving you the impression that the sole reason for me believing that top guilds don't make their logs public is because of members putting themselves before the guild. Again, I'm deeply sorry for letting you assume - thereby, making an ass out of you and me - that this was the only reason behind the privatization of their logs. Since that statement was directed at you and Dusteyy, I'd like you both to know that I agree as to why logs are kept private, in part, because of their desire to keep things a secret from their competition. For instance, in business, you're not going to reveal anything that surrounds your prototype until it's been patented. Otherwise, you risk the competition walking away with your product and the credit.

    However, Dread (my guild) has its problems when it comes to progression and padding, which is to say, detrimental dps inflation. In the case of T15, we wiped for countless hours simply because people wanted to either dps the boss when they should've been on the adds (Horridon, Council, Tortos, Ji-kun, Durumu, and Ra-den) or dps adds that they weren't assigned to dps (Megaera and Animus). Now, Dusteyy might find this comparison "a special kind of stupid," since a top 20 US guild doesn't qualify as one of the aforesaid mentioned "top guilds," but to think that Dread's the only guild with these problems during progression would be a bit asinine.

  3. #123
    Well Dusteyy, I'm glad we're mostly agreed on these points then; as you've mentioned I'd be far from arguing that Fire isn't the theoretical optimum for your raid. It is, and I'm making a concious decission not to play it. I feel like I'd be cheating my raid if I was trying to tell them Frost was somehow superior when I know that it isn't. It basically boils down to a question of philosphy though, which you yourself expressed:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusteyy View Post
    PS, my personal belief and philosophy when playing wow, and what I expect from every single one of my raiders is to be the absolute best you can be. That means playing the highest min/max spec you have and parsing/simming/running/practicing/researching it until you are blue in the face, even if you dont like it. I justify this in that my enjoyment is not linked to any spec, but rather topping the charts. I could care less what spec I have to play to do it, but my TRUE enjoyment and happiness comes from seing "Dusteyy" at the top of the charts.
    In the end, THIS is the point I wanted to argue. First of, let me once again be clear: I'm not talking about Fire or Frost anymore. Fire is better right now, period.

    But as I explained: I do believe the differences are of little to no consequence for most raids in most situations. This is where my outset on the game and the way I play it has changed. I used to be like you, insofar that I would attempt to min/max for 100% performance from myself. Now, I never cared about meters per se, but I did strive towards perfection so my guild could advance as much as possible. This has served me well, and I have been capable of performing up to a world-class level for many years.

    My view has since changed slightly: I still enjoy advancing as far as possible in the reduced ammount of time I do spend on the game. And I still enjoy min/maxing to a certain degree, because its fun to make the most of your character. But I care less about meters and output because I have since learned how much more social aspects and coordination matter for raids. Thats why I mentioned setting back your own performance as a raid leader for the good of the guild: If you enjoy advancing, you will see enormous benefits if you try helping your other raidmembers and sacrifice a few % of your own performance.

    In the same vein, I now sacrifice some of my performance for my continued enjoyment of the game. Somehow, Fire this expansion has become odious and painful to play for me. That is my personal choice. I am rationally aware of making a cut into my DPS, but I can justify it because overall, my raid and I are better served if I have fun playing and keep on focussing on other issues beside how much I hate my specc right now.

    Now, I'm not claiming you can't have fun if you min/max your DPS. I certainly believe you when you say you enjoy it. I'm just saying that I've seen too many people focus on entirely the wrong issues over the years. Not you, not this thread, but I've literally experienced people taking about whether their mage should have enchanted something else on his gloves in an attempt where their healers died due to standing in a fire or their tank failing to pick up an add etc. People focus on these issues of min/maxing, because those are the things being discussed in forums, and they give you a sense of security and control which especially mediocre raids often lack.

    Edit: Now Boxed, I apologize for overreacting and thank you for clarifying your point. I think we were talking about different issues somewhat. What Dusteyy and I were talking about was more along the lines of Method and Paragon, where I still sincerely doubt that anyone would "pad" their DPS in any way detrimental to the raid, and where they generally keep their logs closed simply to not share their proceedings to much. I doubt that they can actually use their own logs too much, considering the problems of WoL in early weeks of progress, and also I found in my own experience that WoL-analysis isn't really all that helpful in most cases.

    In the situation you are in though, I agree. I've also experienced, in a somwhat similarly positioned top100 guild, that people would do stupid stuff to compete on meters. It's been a problem at times. Sadly, the accuracy of Recount and other tools these days make it mostly moot to bother hiding logs anymore, seeing how everyone can check their DPS live all the time.
    Last edited by Ilya; 2013-06-15 at 08:13 PM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilya View Post
    Edit: Now Boxed, I apologize for overreacting and thank you for clarifying your point. I think we were talking about different issues somewhat. What Dusteyy and I were talking about was more along the lines of Method and Paragon, where I still sincerely doubt that anyone would "pad" their DPS in any way detrimental to the raid, and where they generally keep their logs closed simply to not share their proceedings to much. I doubt that they can actually use their own logs too much, considering the problems of WoL in early weeks of progress, and also I found in my own experience that WoL-analysis isn't really all that helpful in most cases.

    In the situation you are in though, I agree. I've also experienced, in a somwhat similarly positioned top100 guild, that people would do stupid stuff to compete on meters. It's been a problem at times. Sadly, the accuracy of Recount and other tools these days make it mostly moot to bother hiding logs anymore, seeing how everyone can check their DPS live all the time.
    Yeah, I don't think that Paragon or Method have these problems, especially Paragon. In terms of EU/US, I think that European guilds tend to be better at teamwork and less hungry for a top spot on the meter. I think your quote from Dusteyy is very relevant to this.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusteyy View Post
    Okay, first things first, take raidbots with a grain of salt. Secondly, and more importantly, if you are going from 150k dps to 250k dps as fire you are doing something VERY VERY VERY wrong. At the absolute [U]most[U] I would say that your dps should fluctuate, on the same fight, about 20-25k, at the MOST, like absolute most. If you are fluctuating over 100k dps on a single fight, you got some serious problems not related to spec my friend.
    The reason you take raidbots with a grain of salt is because the only settings that tell you something useful is all parses + median, but with those settings, why you should take it with grain of salt?
    My numbers were just an example.
    Taking numbers from raidbots now, comparing fire and frost, 25H Top 100 Average shows fire at 300k frost at 200k, 25H All parses median shows fire at 200k and frost at 175k. So, fire fluctuates about 100k between those settings and frost about 25k, this proves that fire dps depends A LOT on RNG. And definitely more than you think.
    This also proves that fire scales better than frost, once you get over 50% crit the chances of bad RNG is so low that there would be no point being frost just for the consistent dps and even a bit unlucky fire mage will out dps frost.

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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawgsnstuff View Post
    The reason you take raidbots with a grain of salt is because the only settings that tell you something useful is all parses + median, but with those settings, why you should take it with grain of salt?
    My numbers were just an example.
    Taking numbers from raidbots now, comparing fire and frost, 25H Top 100 Average shows fire at 300k frost at 200k, 25H All parses median shows fire at 200k and frost at 175k. So, fire fluctuates about 100k between those settings and frost about 25k, this proves that fire dps depends A LOT on RNG. And definitely more than you think.
    This also proves that fire scales better than frost, once you get over 50% crit the chances of bad RNG is so low that there would be no point being frost just for the consistent dps and even a bit unlucky fire mage will out dps frost.
    All this proves in my eyes is that good players play fire and get those high parse, and bad players play fire and get those low parses, not that it's rng dependant

  7. #127
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    All this proves in my eyes is that good players play fire and get those high parse, and bad players play fire and get those low parses, not that it's rng dependant
    Then it's about time you learn what standard deviations mean even at high percentiles.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    Then it's about time you learn what standard deviations mean even at high percentiles.
    I hardly ever showed up to my stats class so I could be totally off here, but looking at the deviation at high percentiles (let's say 75 plus) it's fairly close, there's consistency until you get into the 95+ range where rng becomes a bigger factor. It's also not so much about the overall data, but the individuals within the data, seeing how much each of the top parsers swing up and down from week to week, not how much the fire mage community as a whole swings up and down in a given week

  9. #129
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    It's also been stated many, many times that raidbots for example, does the world.. not just US/EU...


    Hell, I'd love to have these 550 ilvl pieces of gear.. maybe I could parse more often D:
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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Fire logs are skewed a lot in my opinion. You can for a few weeks with adequate DPS, then 1 week get good RNG and rank like 50th... "Omg Fire best spec!!!"

    TL;DR: Good RNG = Rank on WoL
    What about the people I've seen consistently get top 20 ranks on most fights week after week? >.>

    Anyway, arcane is the top spec if you set it to median of all parses lol.

  11. #131
    All 3 specs top 3 in dps....as a hunter I am super jelly.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    What about the people I've seen consistently get top 20 ranks on most fights week after week? >.>

    Anyway, arcane is the top spec if you set it to median of all parses lol.
    Those people have just the best gear.
    Rank = 95% gear.

    There's no point in being ranked every week if your toon if more geared than 99% of the others mage. And if your raid is overgearring the encounter you're able to tunnel the boss a lot more.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Phildozer View Post
    All 3 specs top 3 in dps....as a hunter I am super jelly.
    Please, for the love of GOD tell me you are not getting that asinine statistic from noxxic....

    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings

    I swear, the garbage people put on the internet and just cause it has pretty colors people believe it to be true......

    /facepalm

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusteyy View Post
    Please, for the love of GOD tell me you are not getting that asinine statistic from noxxic....

    I swear, the garbage people put on the internet and just cause it has pretty colors people believe it to be true......

    /facepalm
    People believe colorful numbers because it's a convenient way to back up their "argument" even if they don't understand where the numbers come from.
    Last edited by Derisionx; 2013-06-23 at 02:32 AM.

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