Accessibility and Apathy

[Brodeo]

I cant believe people are coming at Akraen so hard. Its appalling that willingly being terrible at this game is being defended by the community. Why do you guys think its ok to be bad? The raid culture in this game is so polarized now because of LFR that theres literally nothing to motivate new players to move past LFR. It doesnt exist in a vacuum and theres no option to ignore the effects of LFR on the game.

---------- Post added 2013-06-05 at 07:23 PM ----------

Part of what problem? Your illusion that everyone should play this game the way YOU want/do? Yeah that's a problem. That'll never happen, sorry to burst your bubble. True story.

Do you honestly not see what is wrong with you whispering randoms? Really? You pretty much tell em they suck, whatever way you decide to tell em. Either they don't care that they suck, and they just mash random buttons to their likings, or they just don't want to be told. Simple as that. People that want to improve will have made an attempt already, whether it's asking someone themselves in-game, or looking up a guide or whatever. They're not waiting in-game for you to share your wisdom with them. Could've figured that out yourself by now by all the negative responses you gotten, no?
Has absolutely nothing to do with community or lack thereof (or bad state of it or whatever). You made some theorycrafting, gz. I'm sure some people appreciated it and learned from it. You want to know who though? The people that WANTED. Not the people you feel the need to enforce it upon. I've spent hours talking to strangers, took em to training dummies etc. Only because they asked though, not because I saw em do something wrong in lfr. Happy to help no matter how bad someone may be. For some reason you really think that everyone's goal in this game is to be amazing.

Those players and the people like you who defend them should be banned from raiding. If its not your scene, dont ruin it for the people who enjoy it.

[Ferocity]

Is this another LFR hate thread?

Well, it might sound very sad, but if Blizzard will be listening to all these threads, the game will simply die, that's it. If you think that reason of current dire problems in WoW is LFR, you are wrong on so many levels.

[Brodeo]

Is this another LFR hate thread?

Well, it might sound very sad, but if Blizzard will be listening to all these threads, the game will simply die, that's it. If you think that reason of current dire problems in WoW is LFR, you are wrong on so many levels.

Enlighten us. I would like to hear legitimate arguments from the other side of the discussion. Everything ive heard so far is too short-sighted to acknowledge the cascading effect it has on the game, so please, give me something to ponder.

[Ferocity]

Enlighten us. I would like to hear legitimate arguments from the other side of the discussion. Everything ive heard so far is too short-sighted to acknowledge the cascading effect it has on the game, so please, give me something to ponder.

Your tone feels too condescending for the proper reply, I feel more comfortable talking with wall, sorry. There are enough threads out there, which can help you with finding the answer for your question, that's if you truly want to find it.

[Brodeo]

Your tone feels too condescending for the proper reply, I feel more comfortable talking with wall, sorry. There are enough threads out there, which can help you with finding the answer for your question, that's if you truly want to find it.

That sounds like a cop-out. I legitimately want to hear a single response that doesnt put LFR in a vacuum. I've read a number of these threads and i've yet to hear one. The game did fine without LFR for years. I want you to tell me how it has improved the game as a whole. If the only answer is that you enjoy it and dont want it taken away, fair enough, i suppose.

[Deleted]

Yeah, so?

It's a discussion forum. Discuss it.

I personally stopped listening to Mr. nostalgia harping on about the glory days, I do know a lot of people just swallow his gospel wholesale though.

You should really watch a video before you make assumptions about it.

Is this another LFR hate thread?

Well, it might sound very sad, but if Blizzard will be listening to all these threads, the game will simply die, that's it. If you think that reason of current dire problems in WoW is LFR, you are wrong on so many levels.

Watch the video. Its not even about LFR, even though discussion in this thread might make it center around that. Its an issue (or alleged issue) with the entire design philosophy of end-game WoW.

Why would you do that? Unless you're wiping and can help the group, I really don't see a reason for this. I'm all for giving advise, anyone can ask me and I'll help, but you whispering people out of nowhere really comes over like "hey, you suck, you should do it like this!" despite how friendly you may word it.

Is trying to be friendly and helpful (even if you come off as a douche) worse than being silent and/or apathetic though? Or encouraging (through lack of action) a complete lack of trying or challenge in LFR.

Not that it matters what you do or don't encourage, its all a philosophical point. The whole idea behind the video if I understand it right, and something I wholeheartedly agree with, is that making things TOO accessible and TOO easily achievable is just as bad as the old problem of being too inaccessible. Why should a rogue, or mage or anyone ever ask for advice if simply cruising along or even AFKing is enough to get them to complete the content? Its more akin to watching a movie than to playing a game. They CAN ask for advice and strive to improve but there's minimal incentive or stimuli to do so.

Really this video is not about people asking for advice, or LFR, or 5mans or the state of raiding or anything specific. Its just a question of accessibility. I think most people will agree (I hope?) that any accomplishment, any goal, is much more satisfying when earned rather than when its handed to you. If you go too far with making things accessible then you devalue that sense of accomplishment at the end. Of course you might disagree that things in WoW have reached that point of "too far".

[Aùssa02]

No please Ferocity, do elaborate because as Brodeo points out - most people don't go very indepth when they come from that side of the argument since they oftentimes just rely on "blizzards side" of it.

So please, elaborate on what you think

[Sparkidy]

Who's to say that Blizzard's side is wrong? LFR being so accessible will draw in and retain a lot of players who would have been put off by a time/skill driven inability to see a major portion of the game. And they're a business. If the overall quality of the game as seen from a niche portion of the playerbase is lowered because of that, then can you blame them for not seeming to care? Aside from the Chicken Little forumers who claim to be unsubbing because of it, I don't really see people leaving in droves because of what LFR has done to the game.

Another point is one I hadn't considered before I read it in another thread last week. For everyone raiding normals and heroics who doesn't "need" LFR, you have to think about where your future recruits are coming from. It's a stepping stone, a taste of the carrot. Not everyone who does LFR for the first time will finish and say "that was great, but I'd love more of a challenge, I think I'll get into organised raiding", but a few will. And these are the people that will be filling your rosters when you lose raiders for whatever reason, which no one can deny is something that happens pretty regularly. Cut LFR out, and you'll be cutting your own feet out from under you in the future.

It might not have improved the quality of the game as a whole, but it has it's positives, both for players and for Blizzard.

[Deleted]

Who's to say that Blizzard's side is wrong? LFR being so accessible will draw in and retain a lot of players who would have been put off by a time/skill driven inability to see a major portion of the game.

I bolded the part where I think I disagree a bit (and where the video disagrees imo).

Again I wanna emphasize what I said earlier, this is not about removing LFR or saying that LFR is bad for the game as a concept. But perhaps... its too easy maybe? For a player that raids only LFR (of which there are some), does it really feel good and satisfying to clear all content within a week of hitting 90? Or another potential problem is that its too similar to normals in terms of content and rewards so there's little incentive to improve and move to the next rung on the ladder of PvE progression.

As a concept it makes sense, to add a tier of difficulty below normals and accessibility to raids at any time of day/week. The problem alleged in the video is that perhaps it god tuned too low or took this concept too far and why that might be bad.

You're right a few people will try out LFR and decide to do normal mode raids from it... but you might pose the argument that the same was true of heroics in the pre-LFR WoW. People who wanna move onto normal raiding have done so with and without LFR. But can you, perhaps, make an argument that LFR might discourage people from doing normal mode raids? After all, "I already killed this guy, why should I bother killing him again?" Maybe... I dunno. I can see both sides of the story.

[Brodeo]

LFR does discourage a lot of people from moving forward. Theres a reason top-end guilds have recruiting issues. The game as it is now does not prepare players who havent been part of the raid culture for raiding. You'll have a select few who've been mentored by friends/fam or carried through alt runs (which are rare now because of LFR), but altogether people arent given any reason to do more.

I don't like being pidgeon-holed as an LFR basher, but at the same times, the bashing/criticisms are valid when you look at the big picture. In a vacuum its fine, but the cascading effects are largely being ignored by the pro-lfr community.

[Sparkidy]

Oh I agree, I was kinda playing devil's advocate. I actually had a huge break from WoW from the start of ICC to the start of DS. When I started playing again, I saw this LFR feature and was terrified to even join because I didn't have a clue how the fights went and didn't want to let the team down. When I finally did it, I was horrifically underwhelmed and I could barely believe what had just happened. I was like...well what now? It definitely didn't feel satisfying. I eventually reconnected with a few old guildies and raided "for real" again, and it was awesome. But I don't think I'm the "typical" player in that regard.

Both sides of the story are totally valid, because different people will want different things from the game. Absolutely some people will kill the end boss in LFR and quit. I wouldn't, because in my mind no self respecting RPG game finishes when the end boss is dead. But when you've got a playerbase of over 8 million, that's going to be a foreign concept to a lot of them, and it's all about throwing as wide a net as you can, which I think is what Blizzard has pretty successfully done, for better or worse.

I do think that LFR is far too easy compared to normals, at least this tier. That's another thread though.

[Aùssa02]

Im in a bit the same situation as you except I came back to this current content of LFR. And I was not expecting this at all, LFR isn't even remotely close to being able to call an instance.. However I came back to raid with some friends (which I now do, and we are no 6/12 normal ToT after 2 weeks in there) but there is just this.. weird feeling about having already seen all the fights in the most basic concepts (since the difference between LFR and normal is mostly just numbers and a few added mechanics).

It's a bit disheartening that every kill isn't even remotely satisfying to get the first time - Like Tortos was the first time we hit a bit of a wall and once it all clicked and we got him it was great, but that was about it of all the bosses in ToT so far.

And unless durumu proves to be a huuuge challenge then I don't see it happening on other bosses again.

To me they've boiled raiding down to 2 things even in normal mode - Gear and don't stand in shit.

You could say it's always been like that - but not to such an extent as it is now IMO.

Im probably just remembering things being better than they were, but I swear to god even HC Lei Shen won't be even close to be compareable with Illidan, Kael or Archimonde in terms of the feeling of accomplishment.. Simply put because at that point I have already killed him many times in LFR and normal - Same boss just a few number changes and an added mechanic.

LFR adds a new layer to the "Heroic content" trap that completely removes progression from raiding.

A lot of crap in my post, ignore it if it makes no sense it's 4 in the morning here.

[The soulless]

Part of what problem? Your illusion that everyone should play this game the way YOU want/do? Yeah that's a problem. That'll never happen, sorry to burst your bubble. True story.

Do you honestly not see what is wrong with you whispering randoms? Really? You pretty much tell em they suck, whatever way you decide to tell em. Either they don't care that they suck, and they just mash random buttons to their likings, or they just don't want to be told. Simple as that. People that want to improve will have made an attempt already, whether it's asking someone themselves in-game, or looking up a guide or whatever. They're not waiting in-game for you to share your wisdom with them. Could've figured that out yourself by now by all the negative responses you gotten, no?
Has absolutely nothing to do with community or lack thereof (or bad state of it or whatever). You made some theorycrafting, gz. I'm sure some people appreciated it and learned from it. You want to know who though? The people that WANTED. Not the people you feel the need to enforce it upon. I've spent hours talking to strangers, took em to training dummies etc. Only because they asked though, not because I saw em do something wrong in lfr. Happy to help no matter how bad someone may be. For some reason you really think that everyone's goal in this game is to be amazing.

When i started out in this game i had no clue about guides or all the stuff on the web so i thought i was doing well. A random person in a group i got from trade saw i was doing everything wrong he asked if i wanted tips to improve on my toon. I said yes and i now raid heroics as a tank this would not have happened if he just thought i don't want or care to improve. Some people don't know what is out there and may need someone to give them tips and advice on how to play it can make raiders out of them.

[Sparkidy]

This is going off topic a bit, but I think this is an important thing to look at. The difference between normal mode and LFR version of *most* fights these days is that things hurt more. The mechanics you can ignore or heal though in LFR, you can't in normal. That's it. Heroic always adds mechanics, which can make the fight dramatically different. But there's got to be even less incentive to go from LFR to normals when the fight is literally identical except for number tuning.

[Aquamonkey]

People come to the forums ASKING for help, nobody is interested in someone randomely whispering you to do that or this.

There's also people who ask for help in trade only to be berated and/or trolled.

[NeverStop]

This is going off topic a bit, but I think this is an important thing to look at. The difference between normal mode and LFR version of *most* fights these days is that things hurt more. The mechanics you can ignore or heal though in LFR, you can't in normal. That's it. Heroic always adds mechanics, which can make the fight dramatically different. But there's got to be even less incentive to go from LFR to normals when the fight is literally identical except for number tuning.

You mean like how you have to kill 1 Red, 1 Blue, 1 Yellow add on LFR Durumu but you have to kill 3 Red adds on Normal Durumu? LFR mechanics are not even close representations of Normal mode mechanics.

[Aquamonkey]

You mean like how you have to kill 1 Red, 1 Blue, 1 Yellow add on LFR Durumu but you have to kill 3 Red adds on Normal Durumu? LFR mechanics are not even close representations of Normal mode mechanics.

He said most. Aside from Durumu and Animus, the mechanics are identical on LFR and normal. Even in T14, only Gara'jal was mechanically different.

[Alvito]

This video does a good job showing something that should be obvious to anybody that has played the game from some amount of time. They over adjust all the time, if they were a driver over steering they would crash the car and in some ppl povs they have crashed the game.

[Deleted]

You mean like how you have to kill 1 Red, 1 Blue, 1 Yellow add on LFR Durumu but you have to kill 3 Red adds on Normal Durumu? LFR mechanics are not even close representations of Normal mode mechanics.

Even that's not so different. Certainly not different enough to call it a brand new fight. Which it obviously isn't... its the same fight, on a higher difficulty level.

That's kind of the "problem" too. I put "" around the word problem since it depends on your PoV. But like the video said, look at it from the PoV of an average gamer (not a hardcore raider) who has no prior MMO raiding experience and just wants to PvE at level 90. If you ask most people intrade they'll tell you the following, and this makes the current end-game experience for a fresh 90 - Queue for heroics and get carried, acquire iLevel. Queue for old LFRs and get carried and acquire more iLevel. Queue for current LFR and beat final boss. Then what? Try explaining to this new player that the next step is to run that same instance on 2 higher difficulty levels... but its the same instance! A few new abilities and obviously more damage, and to an experienced raider the difference feels like night and day, but explain that to someone fresh to MMOs. It doesn't sound very compelling.

Or look at it from the PoV of someone who intends to play the game via only LFR. Its meant to be a raid difficulty right? People who critique it will call it a boring non-instance where you essentially semi-AFK for an hour. Defenders will claim that its a raid in its own right which helps people who don't have the time to do regular raids experience content. But even from that PoV, can you honestly claim that a fresh 90 will "experience" LFR? They'll see it sure, but do they learn fights? Do they try and fail and try again and accomplish a task and get rewards (which is how all video games essentially work) or do they just queue up for a semi-interactive movie which ends in the same way regardless of their actions? How compelling of an experience is this?

[LeperHerring]

Content has become more accessible for financial reasons - I wouldn't want to (for example) direct a movie that only a small amount of people get to see.

I don't understand how people can keep saying this, when that philosophy has so obviously failed. Some designer doesn't like that only a small portion of the playerbase sees his work? Boo-f'ing-hoo, they get paid to build content, not to stroke their egos with user numbers. When you dumb everything down like this so that "everyone can see everything" you end up with a dull game, and lose millions and millions of players. That is simply a fact that you can directly observe from the game.

It's like turning on godmode because you don't like that only a small number of players are good enough to finish the game. It might be fun for about 5 minutes, after which you realize the whole point of the game was to slowly make progress while getting better and better -- not "seeing the content".