Accessibility and Apathy

[Venant]

What is with the false equivalency of claiming that completing LFR equates to completing the game, or is the same as completing the same tier on heroic? If you are a 'casual' player then your perception of the game being done when you complete LFR comes from your ignorance, much like somebody who learns the basic moves of chess might not realize that there are deeper and more challenging levels of gameplay. If you are a progression raider then SHAME ONE YOU because you know better and your just making a strawman out of this issue.

[Deleted]

Well I was a hardcore raider, just jumped in mop. Did some LFRs to get gear, that just ruined my will to do pve again. Why would I do the same raid in 3 different difficulties ? I did the easiest one, fought all the bosses, seen all the raid design, I don't want to do it again from scratch even with a real difficulty.

Cause lets be honest, LFR is the worst pve implementation I ever witnessed on wow. It requires absolutely 0 skills or 0 character optimization, its incredibly retarded.

This tool should be removed.

[Tomana]

Oh, so you would be more willing to play more in a pvp game...but sudently if its a pve game you're like Oh nope, i have a real life i cant play, i must have this game made as easily as possible in order for me to see the whole content.

That's not what I said. But with PVP games, I personally can afford a more "dotted line" play time. Like I play 15 min, then I have to do other stuff, then I play for 30 more mins and so on. Unfortunately, I can no longer afford sitting in front of my computer from 20:30 to 00:00 non-stop. So from that POV, MOBAs or shooters are better.

Content wasn't added for people to experience it, it was added to let you know there was more out there. That kept people hooked and making them play better (not more).

Except that means that content is effectively developed for a tiny minority. And this is something that I object for both financial and ethical points of view.

Now people see what there is to see and get the feeling that they "finished the game". And I completly understand them. Personaly after finishing hitman absolution, I had no incentive to return to it and play it AGAIN on profesional, because its the same game. I saw the story, i killed the last boss, a second play through wouldnt be as wonderfull as the first.

So once that you won a game in Civ on chieftain, you never played another game? OK then.

I would of had nothing against the removal of consumables and repair bills. Id of been ok. Yet i dont understand why they had to make the raids more easy.

Because if they didn't, it means developing content for 1% of the population. AKA throwing resources out of the window.

And to compare apples with oranges again. Joining a league of legends clan requires the same level of comitment. You have to join from hour x and play with your ranked team x number of matches. Some people like it, others dont. But if they dont, then dont expect to gain platinum ranked any time soon.
If they would decide to simplify league of legends by making platinum division able to host more people, then beeing in platinum would be meaningless and people would stop forming clans. Get the point?

Sure thing. But raiding is the same thing. If you can't commit, you get LFR. If you commit more, you get normal and then heroic.
I don't see platinum players complaining about the fact lowest ranked players play the same maps they do.

With whom am i supposed to kill the bosses with?! This is what the thread is about. If my guild gets less and less applies, and raiders are quiting, what am i supposed to do? People are loosing interest in the game and its hurting the raiding guilds. And the ones who do not loose interest are so bad at the game that its not even funny. And its not their fault. The game simply doesn't teach you the mechanics of moving out of fire anymore.

Right, which is why in BC everyone moved out of the fire... oh wait it's not true. Heck, check that famous screens with Banai yelling at his raiders because they died from volcanoes on Supremus or pummeling deaden on Ros. And that was one of the top world guilds back then.

Ask any one who did both what instance was better. What instance felt more epic.
Swp acording to all the polls i've saw won every single debate hands down.
People didn't even needed to see swp. Knowing it was so hard, hearing so much from it on the forums, seeing people steping out of it with the epics, and then seeing all the best guilds on your server at its entrance, gave it an air of mistique, a sense of magic that no other isntance got.
Steping inside swp for the first time was jaw droping. I remember my guildmates simply freezing at the entrance the first time we went there , looking in awe at the room around them.
It was the best moments i have experienced in wow. And it wasn't because blizzard wanted me to. It was because my guild decided to work to be there. It was our reward for killing the bosses and improving our game.

Frankly, having played both, I can't say which one is better, they were both equally awesome instances.
But that's not the point. The point is that SWP was developed for such a tiny minority of population that even Blizzard realized that they need to change something about raid design, cause pouring all those resources into such an exclusive instance was stupid.

ever heard of dual spec? And even before that I remember giving gold from the guildbank for my members to go and respec. Sure it was a hastle but nobody complained. Some people found it fun and less boring to be able to play both as a healer and as a dps.

Dual spec wasn't around in BC. And yeah, that means that some people had to respec up to 3 times in a single SWP raid. Does it sound like optimal design?
Also, it worked because the guild I was in farmed BT for months, so everyone and his mum had a full set of offspec gear. Which is why it worked in the first place.

[Venant]

Well I was a hardcore raider, just jumped in mop. Did some LFRs to get gear, that just ruined my will to do pve again. Why would I do the same raid in 3 different difficulties ? I did the easiest one, fought all the bosses, seen all the raid design, I don't want to do it again from scratch even with a real difficulty.

Cause lets be honest, LFR is the worst pve implementation I ever witnessed on wow. It requires absolutely 0 skills or 0 character optimization, its incredibly retarded.

This tool should be removed.

So if you were a 'hardcore raider' you must know that there is much more to raiding than LFR? Your argument might as well be 'well at level 5 I had to do this quest to kill boars, therefore the entire game sucks because there is no more depth of play beyond killing boars!'

So what if LFR is the new 5 man heroic? It isn't meant to be the endgame if your a hardcore raider.

[Deleted]

Aply your logic anywhere in life, except wow and you would see just how retarded it sounds.

Yeah you should get less items if you AFK. in fact you should be kicked.

There is a big difference between "if you do less DPS you get less items" and "if you AFK you get kicked".

The obvious problem with your idea is that there is no way for the game to tell how hard the player is trying. What about how much that player might contribute to strategy, calls or organization (which could be key in LFR, like telling people wtf to do on Lei Shen) and is far more useful than a little more DPS? What if that player is interrupting more, or a DK that went blood presence to off-tank cuz a tank died or any other # of a million scenarios?

Like I said initially, you haven't through it through. The idea behind it? That's fine, rewarding people who try as opposed to people who cruise along is good for a game's longevity and makes it more fun. The WAY in which you can do that is not as simple your post made it out to be, you can't just link loot rolls to recount and call it a day.

Right now with your posts you're basically falling into the forum sterotype of the elitist who doesn't want anything to be easy, which I'm sorry to say is just never going to be a part of WoW again. The days of stuff like SWP being a mysterious epic instance out on the horizon for people to aspire to are over, the closest thing to do now is a single boss like Ra-Den. The huge playerbase and diversity of that playerbase means they can't really take the Dark Souls approach. EVEN THOUGH its a great approach for a game to take and makes that game extremely rewarding, its not really feasible for WoW to do it.

That doesn't mean they can't try to do something to challenge the more casual/new/bad players instead of just giving them free boss kills. Challenging them is good, and LFR atm doesn't do that 90% of the time. They should figure out a way to do it. But like I said, linking loot to recount just isn't it.

[Sparkidy]

Could do it by tracking activity uptime I guess (like...minimum 50% or something along those lines), I guess that way you'd at least be forcing people to be there.

But that's still a tiny bandaid on a gaping wound

[veehro]

That's not what I said. But with PVP games, I personally can afford a more "dotted line" play time. Like I play 15 min, then I have to do other stuff, then I play for 30 more mins and so on. Unfortunately, I can no longer afford sitting in front of my computer from 20:30 to 00:00 non-stop. So from that POV, MOBAs or shooters are better.

What are you talking about? If you play dota you know a match can leed up to 1 hr, during wich you are forced to stay at the pc. Leaving a game comes with punishment and even the posibility of a ban.

granted you don't get to stay at the computer for 4 hrs straight, but then again curent day normal and hardmodes still require you to invest the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF TIME per night.

I am unaware of any guild who raids less then 3 hrs, except maybe world top guilds who are so good, that they could of farmed sunwell in less then 2 hrs every wensday then have the rest of the week off.

If you joined a 7/7 raiding guild and then got unhappy with the raid times, it was on you. You could of joined a 2 day raiding guild that suited your needs.

And before you can say they didn't progress, there was a guild on magtheridon wipus frequentus who was doing sunell and had the most relaxed raiding hours possibe 2/7 days, 3 hrs and a half per night.

Except that means that content is effectively developed for a tiny minority. And this is something that I object for both financial and ethical points of view.

No! Content is developed for everebody. Everebody feeels that the game is endless. Everebody has something to aspire.
You don't get one year of JUST doing ICC over and over again. You never feel that the game has shown you what it had to offer and you can now just do more difficult things of the exact same encounter.
Never did i feel in tbc that im so bored with the game and i couldnt wait for the next patch to arive.
There was allways that NEW boss for me to see, that next stone for me to step on.
All instances were relevant, all content was worth doing.

Even members from my guild with loot from felmyst still puged gruul for the dspine trophy.
In todays wow you only do the LAST raiding tier and thats it. Why is that only relevant? Why are previous tears considerd crap?
Just like ulduar. An awesome , amazing instance shadowed by TOC.

So once that you won a game in Civ on chieftain, you never played another game? OK then.

I started playing civ on diety right away, and once I've won, yes, I haven't played again untill the new expansion. You have to understand some gamers are like that. For us aditional levels of dificulty are not content.

Because if they didn't, it means developing content for 1% of the population. AKA throwing resources out of the window.

Even the leed designer of riot, morelo explained about this. It creates in your head the ilusion of an unending world. The carrot on a stick so youd allways refresh your subscribtion.

Fun fact: Blizzard released black temple even before t5 was cleared.

They released it so people knew it was there. That there was something else to aspire after they would kill the bosses.

This is not a movie. You are not paying to see stuff. Its a game. youre paying to play it.

And to be honest lfr isnt even raiding. if you call it "experiencing content". Then you can "experience" it the same way just like you can "experience" sunwell now, by going there and doing it with 5 other people.

Sure thing. But raiding is the same thing. If you can't commit, you get LFR. If you commit more, you get normal and then heroic.
I don't see platinum players complaining about the fact lowest ranked players play the same maps they do.

No but if lower ranked players would sudently get a platinum icon next to them they would complain.

Right, which is why in BC everyone moved out of the fire... oh wait it's not true. Heck, check that famous screens with Banai yelling at his raiders because they died from volcanoes on Supremus or pummeling deaden on Ros. And that was one of the top world guilds back then.

If you did not move out of fire on archimonde youd wipe the raid. If you failed one interupt on RoS youd wipe the raid. If you broke cc youd wipe the raid and so forth. But honestly you're talking as if you werent event there.
Yeah, people did die in the fire ocasionaly, but its NOTHING compared to how the average raiders are now. And its NOTHING compared to the trials guilds are geting.
The fact is, that if back then some one with t5 head aplied to my guild, i knew he could at least move out of shit and i wasn't proven wrong once.

Frankly, having played both, I can't say which one is better, they were both equally awesome instances.
But that's not the point. The point is that SWP was developed for such a tiny minority of population that even Blizzard realized that they need to change something about raid design, cause pouring all those resources into such an exclusive instance was stupid.

The fact was that sunwell was considerd by everebody so awesome (even people who didnt because they wanted to) that word of mouth spread and at the begining of wotlk wow reached a milestone at its player base.
After that ToC came and other decisions that the numbers kept going down.

Dual sec wasn't around in BC. And yeah, that means that some people had to respec up to 3 times in a single SWP raid. Does it sound like optimal design?p

you just said 1% of people did swp and now you're using it as an example. Besides swp there were very few encounters were people had to respec.
And I was one of those people. And tbh I loved it. I used to have two different sets of epic items, i used to get two different things to do in a raid, and for me it was fun.

Also, it worked because the guild I was in farmed BT for months, so everyone and his mum had a full set of offspec gear. Which is why it worked in the first place.

Tbh i prefer having an extra set of gear rather then having EVERETHING i need from that instance and just joining to help my guild

[AgilityTank]

Could do it by tracking activity uptime I guess (like...minimum 50% or something along those lines), I guess that way you'd at least be forcing people to be there.

But that's still a tiny bandaid on a gaping wound

I quite like this idea. However, with flex raiding I might not be lfring much any more. I get a challenge w/heroic raid content and some kick it time with a real community in flex and I'll be pretty happy I bet.

[Deleted]

So if you were a 'hardcore raider' you must know that there is much more to raiding than LFR? Your argument might as well be 'well at level 5 I had to do this quest to kill boars, therefore the entire game sucks because there is no more depth of play beyond killing boars!'

So what if LFR is the new 5 man heroic? It isn't meant to be the endgame if your a hardcore raider.

Seen all the bosses, seen all the raid, don't want to play it anymore. It's simple as that. I don't care for different mechanics/more hp/more damage. I don't want to see the content, I want to earn the right to see the content. I don't like being spoonfed.

[sasofrass]

I honestly feel like the LFR should only let you raid in a small portion of the raid itself, like a sample raid. In T14 maybe only allow you to do MSV and half of HoF, leaving the rest to only be accessible if you put in the effort to do it with a guild or a pug. It would give the final boss so much more of an epic feeling than just being able to queue in and afk and get the loot.

I feel with T15 only allow people to run the first part or two of the new raid and save the rest for Flex raid, Normal and Heroic. Flex raid is going to be delayed like the current LFR and it will still feel like a more epic experience when you kill the bosses.

[veehro]

Seen all the bosses, seen all the raid, don't want to play it anymore. It's simple as that. I don't care for different mechanics/more hp/more damage. I don't want to see the content, I want to earn the right to see the content. I don't like being spoonfed.

Exactly, and like you there is me and many other people. Its like geting spoilers for a book.

[smartazjb0y]

Seen all the bosses, seen all the raid, don't want to play it anymore. It's simple as that. I don't care for different mechanics/more hp/more damage. I don't want to see the content, I want to earn the right to see the content. I don't like being spoonfed.

Then you don't care for raiding at all. You don't want to see the content but you want to earn the right to see it? That's the most laughable thing I've ever read. "Yeah, I don't want the Lexus, I just want to be able to say I got one." That's one of the WORST reasons to remove content, so some people who don't even care about the content can say they earned the right to do it and hold it over other people's heads. Got it.

"Oh hey, you like playing the game casually and want to just experience the story and atmosphere of the instance? Well, sorry, I don't actually care about the boss mechanics, buuuut I think you shouldn't be able to do it so I can "earn" the right to do it, but then not do the content because I don't care about it and I don't want to see the content, and I want to be able to brag to you about it that I "earned" the right to see it."

[Venant]

Seen all the bosses, seen all the raid, don't want to play it anymore. It's simple as that. I don't care for different mechanics/more hp/more damage. I don't want to see the content, I want to earn the right to see the content. I don't like being spoonfed.

The formula for MMORPGs is that you do repetitive tasks over and over in order to improve your character. Are you claiming that you can even make it to LFR without ever doing the same dungeon/daily quest etc. twice? In BC people ran Karazhan over and over, do you think you would have been able to run everything in T4 a single time and then do T5? It seems like every tier forever in this game has relied on raiding the same thing over and over until you have enough gear to move on to the next thing, which means that the basic concept of MMOs does not agree with you.

[Deleted]

That's the same thing, farming a raid was a reward, you had to work for it.
(tho it becomes tedious after a while, especially when you were the main tank like me and couldn't miss a single raid)

Nowadays every single guy who plays with mouse and backpeddle can play 4-5 battlegrounds (afk of course), buy pvp gear, go in lfr and go afk untill he kills the last boss of wow. That's incredibly bad design.

BC had the best design I believe. Even if 25man raid was a huge letdown for me, I loved 40s.

[Deleted]

That's the same thing, farming a raid was a reward, you had to work for it.
(tho it becomes tedious after a while, especially when you were the main tank like me and couldn't miss a single raid)

Nowadays every single guy who plays with mouse and backpeddle can play 4-5 battlegrounds (afk of course), buy pvp gear, go in lfr and go afk untill he kills the last boss of wow. That's incredibly bad design.

BC had the best design I believe. Even if 25man raid was a huge letdown for me, I loved 40s.

Are you seriously trying to say attunements were good design? "Earning" the right to see content the way we had to in Vanilla/TBC is HORRIBLE design. Not wanting to be spoonfed means wanting content to be challenging so when you beat it you felt like you earned it. Nobody should EVER get the same rush of excitement or accomplishment just because they managed to grind out a boring easy repetitive task that "attunes" them.

Everyone should have universal access to all content. It should just be balanced right so that even if you can do it you can't "kill" it by backpedalling and AFKing.

[Aquamonkey]

Are you seriously trying to say attunements were good design? "Earning" the right to see content the way we had to in Vanilla/TBC is HORRIBLE design. Not wanting to be spoonfed means wanting content to be challenging so when you beat it you felt like you earned it. Nobody should EVER get the same rush of excitement or accomplishment just because they managed to grind out a boring easy repetitive task that "attunes" them.

Attunements were a vehicle to deliver relevance to raids. They explained what the raid was about, who was in it, what they were doing, why you are going in there to fight, and tied it to the rest of the world. This is essentially what raid patch quest hubs and scenarios do now. The entire 5.3 Darkspear Rebellion can be considered an attunement for SoO.

The only problem with the old system was that attunements needed to be done on every toon.

[Deleted]

I dont only miss attunements, I also miss dungeons keys. Actually I guess you don't know it but in wow pre bc you couldn't go to any high level dungeon unless you had the key to it (some exceptions of course). Each key required you fulfill an epic quest line with interesting lore even for someone like me who isnt interested by that most of the time. AND you could open the dungeon for people who didn't had the key. That felt quite epic actually. Going to a dungeon was a little adventure, you had to invest yourself in it.

[Adlian]

Everything said in that video is true...