Fire Mage: Haste vs Mastery

[Vaelkder]

In everything which I've read in the Forums, there is a debate regarding which Haste Cap to hit (5036 or 7073 for that extra Glyphed Combustion tick), and when to start stacking Mastery, for Fire Mage. One camp seems to be saying that after Hit and Crit, Haste is the most important, if you can get to the Hit Caps. The other group says that the Haste Cap of 5036 is more than adequate, then reforging Mastery to increase DPS.

Somehow, I've managed to reach some numbers which I thought couldn't happen for my ilvl and race (Worgen):

Hit is 5108 (15.2%)
Crit is 16100 (46.28%)
Haste is 7144 (16.81% unbuffed; 22.65% raid buffed)
Mastery is 1992 (16.98% unbuffed; 24.48% raid buffed

The only thing which I did to hit the Haste Cap was to swap out the shoulder gem, 80 Int/160 Crit for the 80 Int/160 Haste gem.

Should I reforge to lower the Haste, raise the Mastery and put the Int/Crit gem back? This is the one thing which puzzles me, as so many keep saying Hit, Crit and Haste over all.

If I dump Haste, I can add to Mastery, making it 3816 (I think that would put me around 30% buffed), taking Hit down to 5067, having Haste then at 5520, still above the 5036 cap (losing one NT tick) and raising Crit to 16260.

Thank you!

[Deleted]

Haste and mastery are really close stats after crit for fire and while reforging to Mastery to get those godly combustions may seem tempting I would probably keep H > M.
The reason for this (apart from the extra combustion tick) is the implementation of RPPM and how well our meta and trinkets scale with haste. The extra procs you'll get by stacking haste over mastery would most likely outweigh the benefit of bigger ignites.

[Atherius]

Originally Posted by Vykina
The options are either:
Crit>5036 Haste>Mastery>Haste
or
Crit>7073 Haste>Mastery>Haste

It's practically impossible to know which is better though due to the nature of this spec. Mastery will offer some stability in Combustion damage but Haste offers more Fireballs (leading to more Pyros), DoT ticks and RPPM procs.

Taken from Method forums. I've personally gone with the 5036haste>mastery>haste since I lack enough haste for the 2nd cap. It also comes down to which fight you are doing. For fights like council and durumu hc, mastery should increase the overall dps since you can spread almost every combustion. Also, never reforge/gem for haste>crit even if you can reach a haste cap. I think you only have one option with your current gear, and that's 5036haste>mastery>haste

[Rinoa]

The difference between haste and mastery is so small that you'd almost certainly be better off practicing efficient movement and so on to increase your DPS rather than research the difference and get it from stats. I choose haste though, as I think faster casts feel better than slower ones.

[Vaelkder]

Taken from Method forums. I've personally gone with the 5036haste>mastery>haste since I lack enough haste for the 2nd cap. It also comes down to which fight you are doing. For fights like council and durumu hc, mastery should increase the overall dps since you can spread almost every combustion. Also, never reforge/gem for haste>crit even if you can reach a haste cap. I think you only have one option with your current gear, and that's 5036haste>mastery>haste

I was wondering about the gem swap. I didn't know if a Crit difference of 160, when I'm already at 16100, would make that much of a difference in Critical Strike (46.28% vs 46.67%), which is why I went for the 7073 Haste Cap.

I did reforge back to the lower Haste Cap and added to Mastery, and will see what happens this evening when my guild raids. If my numbers on H Jin'Rokh are good, I'll stay with that until I can get to the next Haste Cap without re-gemming anything.

Thanks for all of your help!

Edit: I put the Int/Crit gem back into the shoulder slot and used the Haste Boot Enchant, instead, which seems to be what so many Fire Mages are doing. Numbers are still good, and I'm hoping for the best.

[Henzington]

Since most fights are better for living bomb and the 2nd tick of living bomb is over 13k, I have switched to mastery myself after 5036.

[DeathDefier]

I switched to mastery (after 5036 haste) and I didn't notice too huge of a difference, but I definitely prefer it.

[Foliuss]

If you play a troll I would go for a 5042 haste cap instead of 5036. The reason being that there is a glyphed combustion breakpoint at 6842 when you have lust + legendary meta + berserking up and you get 1800 haste from our 2 set bonus (5042 + 1800 = 6842). This week I have been trying out crit > haste (to 5042) > mastery and my combustions seem a lot more consistent. I don't think haste plays a very big role in rppm trinket procs because I haven't seen a big difference in my trinket procs since going mastery after 5042 haste.

[DeathDefier]

I don't think haste plays a very big role in rppm trinket procs because I haven't seen a big difference in my trinket procs since going mastery after 5042 haste.

Definitely agree with this.

[Vaelkder]

Quick Update; details at eleven...

Jin'Rokh Heroic 25-Man was cake, even though I got hit with six of those idiot lightning balls. RNG still hates me, but with the Mastery over Haste build, using Living Bomb, it seemed to be all right.

Horridon and Council were Normal, as our guild is still progressing. We switched to Heroic for Tortos, and I stayed with Living Bomb, as the Whirl Turtles are usually too far apart for Nether Tempest to be truly effective.

25 wipes later, with tempers flaring, I was having an opening pull averaging something over 210K DPS (I know, but I'm still learning how to get Ignite/Combustion to really work for me), which dropped down to about 147K until we wiped.

Tomorrow evening (Saturday), we'll be trying it again, and I've reforged to the way that Spaace has suggested, with heavy Haste.

I'll post my findings and let everyone know what happened, and I'm hoping that there will be a big enough difference to help me to decide which is best for my play style.

Again, thank you to everyone!

[Deleted]

Since most fights are better for living bomb and the 2nd tick of living bomb is over 13k, I have switched to mastery myself after 5036.

Same here.

It's also nice to noticeable have higher/more stable combustions. I don't really mind the slightly slower casttime, you get used to it pretty quickly.

[Erolian]

Quick Update; details at eleven...

Jin'Rokh Heroic 25-Man was cake, even though I got hit with six of those idiot lightning balls. RNG still hates me, but with the Mastery over Haste build, using Living Bomb, it seemed to be all right.

Horridon and Council were Normal, as our guild is still progressing. We switched to Heroic for Tortos, and I stayed with Living Bomb, as the Whirl Turtles are usually too far apart for Nether Tempest to be truly effective.

25 wipes later, with tempers flaring, I was having an opening pull averaging something over 210K DPS (I know, but I'm still learning how to get Ignite/Combustion to really work for me), which dropped down to about 147K until we wiped.

Tomorrow evening (Saturday), we'll be trying it again, and I've reforged to the way that Spaace has suggested, with heavy Haste.

I'll post my findings and let everyone know what happened, and I'm hoping that there will be a big enough difference to help me to decide which is best for my play style.

Again, thank you to everyone!

You should probably compare on bosses you're comfortable with rather than bosses you're progressing on because as you keep attempting it you yourself will become better at the boss in general and it'll throw comparisons off

[mrgreenthump]

You should probably compare on bosses you're comfortable with rather than bosses you're progressing on because as you keep attempting it you yourself will become better at the boss in general and it'll throw comparisons off

Pretty much. For progress you should always go for the safe bet, unless that experimental thing seems to be a clear winner for that fight..


On the actual topic, it really depends on your gear and haste/crit levels if mastery comes on top, for many atm, we are already high 15k, and top 200 mages are over 16k crit rating, and after that point mastery is just better, but if its like me, I just simply can't go below 6k haste with my gear without nerfing like 500 crit rating.. so I tend to like the 6414 cap for NT even as LB as the difference is so small anyways. I do reforge for "harder" heroics still to minimum haste.

[Vaelkder]

I'm still trying, and I mean TRYING, to learn how to play Fire optimally. I've only played Fire since the third week of 5.3 (been Arcane since day 1, about a year ago) and I'm having problems wrapping my mind around how to spread the Combustion to the Whirl Turtles when they first appear. RNG is still not my friend, and I have to admit that a lot of my ilvl came from that 600 cloak that I worked so hard on to get.

I'm assigned to burst at Tortos at the very beginning, and then to focus on the Whirl Turtles, with perhaps the occasional hit at Tortos if there is a free second or two. Because of all of the great comments and help which I've received here in the Forums, I'm improving on a daily basis, and it's pretty measurable. Last week, after the burst, my average DPS on Tortos was 85K, whereas this week it flew up to 147K, and I will say that it is entirely due to the people HERE who contribute to MMO-Champion.

I'm hoping that this evening's attempt will produce better numbers (I reforged to the numbers which Spaace suggested [Hit-5108; Crit-16260; Haste-7159; Mastery-1852 and Spell Power-29243/34763] and we'll see what happens), but I will always keep working on it, because I really don't know what I'm doing in comparison to everyone else here.

Again, THANK YOU TO EVERYONE who has put in their time and effort here! I appreciate it all greatly!

Cheers!

---------- Post added 2013-06-09 at 12:26 PM ----------

Well, folks, it's time to laugh at me for the Nth time...

Last night was an unmitigated disaster. My RNG was so bad that the "best" opening pull I could manage anywhere had an Ignite of only 109K when I hit Combustion. The logs all showed that I was not performing at all well, and that my average DPS was perhaps 126K, where the other Mage (who has been playing Fire for 7 years and has an ilvl of 527) had bursts up to 385K and averaged 175K on the longer fights.

I understand that there was a lot of lag everywhere for everyone, due to a background download for some type of patch which hit this morning, but that does not excuse the fact that I do not comprehend how to get things to work as a Fire Mage.

I had used the reforging which Spaace had suggested earlier, and I thought that it ought to help with the overall performance, but the evening was filled with so many mis-steps on the part of the entire raid that I can't say if the Mastery-heavy or the Haste-heavy reforging was preferable. As a compromise, this morning I reforged again to the numbers which Mrgreenthump has suggested, and I'll run dungeons, LFRs, scenarios and target dummies as preparation for next week's guild raid.

I'm not certain why my Ignites are so very low; there was one pull where things seemed to be going perfectly. Time Warp was up, ALL of the procs had hit and were running (Wushoo was at 9 when I hit POM/Alter Time). I actually had SEVEN Pyroblasts in a row, with LB ticking madly away. The problem was this was the only time that I was at an ignite which was above 100K, where I thought that it ought to have been at least 250K.

In all honesty, I know that my ilvl being 532 is due to the 600 cloak (upgraded to 608). If I didn't have the cloak, I would be at 526. I'm not sure if this has any impact, but I have been looking at everyone's Armory, as well as pulling them up on AMR, to see what reforges and gemmings are in place and to try to learn more.

I work hard at everything, running dailies, LFRs, Scenarios, Dungeons and everything else possible to learn how to play Fire, but there is something missing, and I can't for the life of me discover what that might be, to help me progress from a low-level player into at least an average player. The suggestions and help here are incredible, yes, but I must be missing something in the fundamentals.

I'll keep studying and practicing, and with luck and some decent RNG, perhaps I'll manage to progress.

Thanks again for all of your collective help.

[Deleted]

Just went back to fire and tried out 5036 haste ->mastery in LFR and it seemd to work pretty well tbh. Got around 4k mastery and the combustions are getting pretty decent even without AT so I'm gonna stick with this for now and see how it turns out on wednesday when we are doing a full clear.