[Mage] *OFFICIAL* Help my DPS thread

[Vaelkder]

This is correct, but there's a good reason why I don't play with a PoM macro and instead activate it myself



PoM Pyro usage won't the difference between good/bad Ignites, it's just the difference between good and insane Ignites. Back when I was playing Fire I think my average on-pull Combustion was in the region of 100K ticks; it just depends on whether procs align and whether RNG is in your favour, to be honest.

I've had a brief peek through your logs and the biggest things to work on look to be your uptimes, sort those out first then work on building larger Ignites. Gotta walk before you can run

Let's be honest about it... I need to learn to STAND before I am able to try walking.

My up times are pretty bad, as I am still "under the influence" of how things worked with Arcane (I had worked incredibly hard to become proficient at Arcane and never played anything else.

I'll work on the up times, of course, and with all of the help here, I'm sure that it will begin to truly come together.

Thank you!

Cheers

[Deleted]

First and foremost, do not trust SimCraft Data. SimCraft will adjust to different situations differently and across 10,000 iterations RNG is not a factor, it is however a factor with you.

SimC is fine to work out mathematical stat weights and therefore "optimal" reforging, but honestly beyond that it's very difficult to trust the raw output data it gives.

Secondly; your issue can be fixed quite easily by tracking your Pyroblasts more effectively.

You have a ~4-5 second window in which you can build an Ignite properly for a Combustion. In order to maximise this damage you would ideally want 3/4 Pyroblast! crits, and ideally NO PoM Pyros - this is because PoM Pyros are hitting/critting for 15% less.
If you set up more efficient tracking of your Pyroblasts! so that you know when they're critting aside from bigger numbers appear on your screen, you'll find judging a Combustion much easier. An "ideal" Combustion assuming you have the correct number of GCDs available is comprised of 4 Pyroblast! crits, no more or no less. Your GCD will not be 1s so 4*1.2 = 4.8s giving you a very small window in which to Combust in. It's tight, but it's doable if you're good enough.
In an ideal situation, you never want to be using your PoM Pyro. In all honesty it's no longer "needed" for Fire, anyway. It's more of a playstyle choice.

Another thing is, on the dummy you will not benefit from plenty of things. I highly doubt you're pre-potting, flasked or fed on a dummy. Another thing to consider is that in a raid situation, assuming you have all raid buffs your Ignites are 8% stronger, which by default makes your Combustions 8% stronger as well.
If you're getting 30-40K Combustion ticks on average at 488 iLvl you're doing OK. Just wait for more gear and see what happens then.



While your logic (though complex) seems correct, in the context of building Combustions it's completely irrelevant.

The whole point of Combustion building is to create as large an Ignite tick as possible and Combust that value. To do so, you only have a small window to do so otherwise you're losing too much value off your Ignite to make the Combustion worth it.

Of course I am lacking a lot of things on the puppet, however I disabled it from simc aswell and it still stomps me. I believe RNG to be of no factor, because I opened so often, that I got those streaks that should have yielded insane combustions, but as I used the pom pyros aswell due to not knowing better I pretty much failed.

So for now I will try and search a threshould for MyCombustionHelper, however I run into a problem. I am unsure if I can trust that number...

Is that realtime calculated? Will it go down in time? I am not sure. Should I disregard that addon and go by pyroblast! crits?

For example:
I have HU & HS up.

Fireball ->alter time macro-> p! (both crit)
p! (crit)
p!(crit)
following your logic I should not throw the pom pyro instead I use the macro to overwrite it or should I combust right here? Regardless of my itemlevel I mean. At this point I already have 3 pyroblast crit and if I understand you I won't have time to stack more or should I go for another pyroblast!?

Is there like a rule of thumb?
After those 3 crits lets say I get 2 non crits, will those two noncrits be enough to keep the ignite on that level or will it drop dramatically for example.

[Grumash]

Of course I am lacking a lot of things on the puppet, however I disabled it from simc aswell and it still stomps me. I believe RNG to be of no factor, because I opened so often, that I got those streaks that should have yielded insane combustions, but as I used the pom pyros aswell due to not knowing better I pretty much failed.

So for now I will try and search a threshould for MyCombustionHelper, however I run into a problem. I am unsure if I can trust that number...

Is that realtime calculated? Will it go down in time? I am not sure. Should I disregard that addon and go by pyroblast! crits?

For example:
I have HU & HS up.

Fireball ->alter time macro-> p! (both crit)
p! (crit)
p!(crit)
following your logic I should not throw the pom pyro instead I use the macro to overwrite it or should I combust right here? Regardless of my itemlevel I mean. At this point I already have 3 pyroblast crit and if I understand you I won't have time to stack more or should I go for another pyroblast!?

Is there like a rule of thumb?
After those 3 crits lets say I get 2 non crits, will those two noncrits be enough to keep the ignite on that level or will it drop dramatically for example.

Do you have the alter time set bonus? if the answer is no, then go ahead and combust while your pompyro is in the air. If the answer is yes, It is probably worth it to hit the macro and try for a few more pyro crits with the extra 1500 haste/mastery/crit.

The way ignite works is that when pyro a hits it will ignite the target, burning it for x damage over the next 4 seconds (could be 6 I forget). The next spell to hit will also generate an ignite. The debuff is one single debuff, but for the purpose of this question, consider them to be different ignites. You want as many crit pyro ignites on your target as possible. That means that you have about 4 seconds from the first crit pyro to get more before the first one drops off. Hopefully that clarified things for you.

[Deleted]

Of course I am lacking a lot of things on the puppet, however I disabled it from simc aswell and it still stomps me. I believe RNG to be of no factor, because I opened so often, that I got those streaks that should have yielded insane combustions, but as I used the pom pyros aswell due to not knowing better I pretty much failed.

So for now I will try and search a threshould for MyCombustionHelper, however I run into a problem. I am unsure if I can trust that number...

Is that realtime calculated? Will it go down in time? I am not sure. Should I disregard that addon and go by pyroblast! crits?

For example:
I have HU & HS up.

Fireball ->alter time macro-> p! (both crit)
p! (crit)
p!(crit)
following your logic I should not throw the pom pyro instead I use the macro to overwrite it or should I combust right here? Regardless of my itemlevel I mean. At this point I already have 3 pyroblast crit and if I understand you I won't have time to stack more or should I go for another pyroblast!?

Is there like a rule of thumb?
After those 3 crits lets say I get 2 non crits, will those two noncrits be enough to keep the ignite on that level or will it drop dramatically for example.

If you're using AT, P! crit -> P! crit -> (AT reset) -> P! crit -> P! crit is as ideal as it's ever going to get.
Basically, use the AT reset to NOT cast your PoM Pyro, and instead refresh your HU/Pyro! procs and go again. Combustion is about cramming as much damage as humanly possible into a small window; ideally if you can you want to get as many casts off as possible, if PoM pyro happens to be one of these casts because of bad RNG it's better than nothing, but it's just not ideal.

Regarding timing a Combustion, always make sure you're using a stopcast macro for it:

#showtooltip Combustion
/stopcasting
/cast Combustion

This means that the only way you won't get a Combustion off exactly when you want to is when you're on a GCD, and it narrows the Window for error.
Again, you're just trying to get as many spellcasts into the time window as possible without munching the Ignite and you're ideally going to Combust when your Ignite value is at its peak. It's just up to you when to judge this and it comes with a feel for the playstyle of Fire and the flow. Fire's very much a reaction-based spec compared to Arcane/Frost which are both more forward-thinking and require a bit more forward thinking compared to Fire - not to say Fire doesn't require it but as Combustion is still a large portion of the damage you're forced to react to crits/hits situationally and take it from there.

Regarding CombustionHelper, I've honestly found it to be the best Ignite-tracker out there, it's mostly accurate and updates faster than others from what I've seen, again the more you play Fire the more you'll become accustomed to it.

[Deleted]

So moving closer to the boss would also increase my combustion damage as it shortens the traveltime and might allow to squeeze in one more spell before a tick.

Moving closer wont help much. Around MoP Launch blizzard made a max travel time on (most?)our spells. The max travel time is 0.75(if i remember correctly), This means even if your standing at max range your spell will register after 0.75s, before the actual animation will hit the boss. This was done to prevent HU munching and give fire mages a chance to react to a HU when casting from max range.

no matter at what range your standing you will be able to get the same amount of spells off, as 0.75s is lower than our gcd even when capped.

However moving closer to the boss during Heroism will help you, since your haste is so high that by the time fireball 1 lands on target(crit-hu) you will have finished fireball 2(mid air) and fireball 3 will be in cast, fireball 2 will cancel hu.
(I do realize that we would have 0.25s to react but its simply not enough for the human brain, and we are also chain casting spells queuing them up before we finish a cast.)

Standing closer than 15~20yards(ping dependant) during heroism will prevent this hu munching and enable you to react and change your queued spell to IB after 2end fireball.

[Deleted]

I thank you guys a lot for all the help you threw my way.

My understanding is a lot better and I feel confident that things will turn out optimally once I am in a raid enviroment. I still dont understand why I would easily pull 40-80k combust in raids while only getting 30k alone on the puppet, but maybe there is some magic at work

[Deleted]

I still dont understand why I would easily pull 40-80k combust in raids while only getting 30k alone on the puppet, but maybe there is some magic at work

80 combustion ticks imply 160k ignite ticks, those are somewhat rare, unless the boss got some gimmick, or on pulls with heroism. My average ignite is around 80-120k(40-60k combust ticks).

The reason you will do better in raids is(as some one already mentioned ;P) that in raids you will have Flask+food, it is a huge int gain => more spell power => bigger spell hits = bigger ignite, you will also have 5% raid haste, and potions.
I am actually surprised, you can do 60k ignite(30k combust) on dummies in your gear. You have no trinkets, in my case when my trinket procs its a ~15k+ int gain, that is a big spell power boost as well as crit boost.

[antiscian]

"3. Always try to post as much descriptive information about your problem as possible, including World of Logs links or data."

Here's a log from a week or so ago. My ilevel was only 509 at the time. It's around 515 now. I was on a break for three months before coming back a few weeks ago. I think the DPS was good for my ilevel. I have logs from last week but I had to switch bombs to assist with single targetting as my guild dps is low. I am moving to a new guild with better dps so I wanted to get some advice.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...um/damageDone/

[Deleted]

We are talking about Herculenis right?
Overall its good. 90er talent is up, NT is up often (maybe a little bit more is possible but sometimes this fight is terrible).
Major thing i see is u often waste proccs of BF. In nearly every fight u used only 60-80% of ur BF-proccs. K sometimes NT proccs BF in a row but your haste isnt so high that it should occur so much. Remeber that FFB is your second best spell after a full NT.

[antiscian]

We are talking about Herculenis right?
Overall its good. 90er talent is up, NT is up often (maybe a little bit more is possible but sometimes this fight is terrible).
Major thing i see is u often waste proccs of BF. In nearly every fight u used only 60-80% of ur BF-proccs. K sometimes NT proccs BF in a row but your haste isnt so high that it should occur so much. Remeber that FFB is your second best spell after a full NT.

Damn glad I posted.. I'll be extra vigilant about that. You mean I am getting procs of BF and not using them? I try to use them religiously but admittedly I am sometimes either refreshing NT, invocating or sometimes casting ice lance out of priority when more than one target is present. Often I go into an invocation with the procs up.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 10:06 AM ----------

So I am joining a guild and one of their mages said my haste wasn't high enough to justify the icy veins glyph. My gear is better than the log I posted above but I took the advice and removed the glyph. This dropped my DPS on simcraft a couple of percentage points but I am assuming the DPS will go up with multi-target due to cone of cold but SImcraft kept crashing on the multi target sim. I feel like my dps went down without that glyph but it's anecdotal.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 10:14 AM ----------

One last thing... Sorry for post spam. The icy veins guide recommends using Potion of the Jade Serpent in a pre-potting action. I use mine as part of my alter time/IV macro. I take it off when not raiding with guild but wouldn't this be better than using in the beginning?

[awildpidgeyappears]

One last thing... Sorry for post spam. The icy veins guide recommends using Potion of the Jade Serpent in a pre-potting action. I use mine as part of my alter time/IV macro. I take it off when not raiding with guild but wouldn't this be better than using in the beginning?

If you're looking to max your DPS you should pretty much always prepot (usually as part of an Invocation–Mirror Image–Pre-pot–Frostbolt precast sequence). Because you can use only one pot in combat, using a pot before the pull means that you will have almost double the pot uptime over the course of the fight. The pot buff should still be on you for nearly all of your entire AT/IV opener. Keep the /use pot in your macro, though. You won't use a pot when you pop the macro at the beginning of the fight (as it will still be on its 1m CD), but the next time you use your macro 3 minutes later, you'll consume your one in-combat pot.

[tannzenator]

One last thing... Sorry for post spam. The icy veins guide recommends using Potion of the Jade Serpent in a pre-potting action. I use mine as part of my alter time/IV macro. I take it off when not raiding with guild but wouldn't this be better than using in the beginning?

You want to pre-pot so you can use a pot twice during the encounter. Ideally you will be using your IV/AT macro pretty close to the start as well so you will still get an extra six seconds of the pot.

[Deleted]

So I am joining a guild and one of their mages said my haste wasn't high enough to justify the icy veins glyph. My gear is better than the log I posted above but I took the advice and removed the glyph. This dropped my DPS on simcraft a couple of percentage points but I am assuming the DPS will go up with multi-target due to cone of cold but SImcraft kept crashing on the multi target sim. I feel like my dps went down without that glyph but it's anecdotal.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ou-Quick-Guide
Just read that and think about IV-Glyph on your own.

[Xirek]

Question: Looking at the logs is our Frost Mage staying competitive for the gear equipped? Often, we feel that he should be doing more #'s compared to the amount of gear he has. Also, are there opportunities for improvement that we can approach them with? Thinking Better CD usage, different reforging, modification of rotation/priority, etc.

On Durumu I feel he is low compared to others (not sure if that's forgivable due to heavy movement) and Primordius he's keeping up with the other people below the Warlock but I have to wonder, is there something more he can do? He's a good player and knows how to take constructive criticism and make himself better, I just don't know what advice to give not being one who plays the class itself.

Also, a lot of folks I've talked to have told me that Living Bomb is better and should be used over Frost Bomb. Can anyone attest to that or are those players just blowing smoke with little to really back it up?

Sorry for the lack of proper links but MMO Champion won't let me post them yet (still a very new poster).

Any feedback from the Community is greatly appreciated. I'm the Raid Leader for our group and usually the filter for advice from other raiders (being the GM as well). I don't play Frost Mage myself so I'll relay your information directly to the player. Thanks in advance (and be brutally honest please!)

Armory: us.battle.net/wow/en/character/the-scryers/Rault/advanced
Spec: Frost Mage

World of Logs:
worldoflogs.com/reports/hu4lfj31fsa0aav9/sum/damageDone/?s=9878&e=10321 (Durumu)
worldoflogs.com/reports/yqm13w4kumiliwms/sum/damageDone/?s=9217&e=9609 (Primordius)

[jtmzac]

First thing I see is he's using int gemming when he should be using haste gemming. He also needs to try and replace that vp trinket since the haste proc is actually problematic for frost.

For talents he should be using invocation and not incanter's ward.

Which bomb you use will depend on the fight. If you're good at clipping NT you can use it for every fight but this isn't the easiest thing and for now I would suggest he uses living bomb on single target fights and fights without much cleave (like twins and megaera). For other fights you use nether tempest.

Not the most important thing but glyph of momentum is really good and its just easier then turning your camera just to blink.

As for his dps he can definitely improve. His general active time and his uptime on bombs can be improved and with his gear he can simply do a lot more dps. Just a tip but dps on progression fights isn't always the best measure as some people require a lot more time then others to work out how to play their class appropriately for the fight.

Make sure he's using an addon to track the invocation buff and his bomb spell. Tellmewhen and weakaura's are what most people use.

[Seanothan]

frosty words words words

Okay I'll be blunt. He's completely clueless.

Firstly he needs to hit cap himself. His Armory says he has reforged 1655 hit off of himself yet he is only at 13.52% hit. That's a glaring omission. He clearly has no idea what he's doing in terms of gems and reforges. His Mr.Robot has him making a change on every piece in terms of gems and 90% of his gear for reforges. Intellect is the most valuable stat and he's sacrificing a lot of it by using green gems to get +hit instead of purple ones. He is favouring mastery (a Frost mage's worst stat) over both hit AND crit. That's a massive no-no. He's going to lose a chunk of haste in order to fix his horrendous gearing, but he'll be gaining the crucial hit cap, dropping over 8% mastery, gaining back some well needed crit and over 800 spell power.

Drop Blazing Speed and pick up Ice Floes. Ice Floes gives him the ability to cast 2 spells while moving, which is a much bigger boost than Blazing Speed can give. Drop Greater Invisibility and pick up Cauterize. Judging by what I've seen so far he's probably better off with a passive survival talent than one that requires him to actively save himself. I personally run with Nether Tempest and swap it out for Frost Bomb for certain fights (Heroic Horridon for example) and just leave LB alone. All 3 have their pros and cons so a little slack can be cut there. Nether Tempest is great for fights like Council or Megaera where you can dot multiple targets with ease and up your chances to get a FFB proc. He should not be using Glyph of Evocation. He should be using Glyph of Water Elemental.

Like JT said make him get WeakAura's or something to that effect. Mages absolutely have to have Invocation and bombs up ALL the time in order to do the best DPS. For WeakAura's he can just Google strings to import and the addon will do all the work for him. Tracking bombs and Invocation properly can be a big DPS boost. 99k on Durumu in 522 ilvl gear is straight up bad. He should be pushing much much higher than that. Ice Floes will be helpful on the maze portion of the fight, as is Nether Tempest. I see he was using Frost Bomb on Durumu which is a big no-no. It gives you no mobility (especially for the maze and if you get red beamed) and only grants you one FFB proc. Frost Bomb should only be used on fights where adds play the key role like Horridon.

Above all else I'd tell him to do some actual research on how a Frost Mage works. He seems to be completely unaware of stat priority, gemming, and reforging and isn't glyphing or picking talents properly. He needs a lot of work, and if I was the guild leader I'd sit him until he makes the proper changes and shows he at least has a grasp on how his class works.

[hatchetman240]

Can you please have a look at our frost mage. He's coming in very low on Durumu and I can't be sure if it's a weak fight for frost or if he can fix something.

Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...yliejoy/simple
WOL from Durumu Sunday: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9...ses&boss=68036

I'm not this character, I'm not clear why he's so low. I don't even have a mage. I know when he's moving his DPS drops way off. It may be a problem related to doing the wrong rotation while moving, or it might be something else. Can you have a look and make some suggestions?

[Seanothan]

Can you please have a look at our frost mage. He's coming in very low on Durumu and I can't be sure if it's a weak fight for frost or if he can fix something.

Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...yliejoy/simple
WOL from Durumu Sunday: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9...ses&boss=68036

I'm not this character, I'm not clear why he's so low. I don't even have a mage. I know when he's moving his DPS drops way off. It may be a problem related to doing the wrong rotation while moving, or it might be something else. Can you have a look and make some suggestions?

Drop Blazing Speed, pick up Ice Floes. Drop Frost Bomb pick up Nether Tempest. And what the hell is up with his Major Glyphs? Icy Veins/Water Elemental/Ice Lance are the ones he should have. Even if he switched them out for the ones he has now for Durumu, he is doing it all wrong. He's gemmed wrong. If he gems properly he will get an extra 1300+ intellect. He's also not hit capped, which is yet another problem affecting his DPS. Read what I wrote for the previous post above yours too. A lot of what I said there affects this dude too.

70k-ish DPS on Durumu is very bad for his ilvl. Durumu is a bit of a weaker fight for Frost Mages but it's still an easy one. I'm at 530 ilvl and last night I did 168k on Durumu, just as a reference.

[Deleted]

Seanothan you have many good points. But also some wrong info.

"He is favouring mastery (a Frost mage's worst stat)"

Now if you at all have followed the frost section on these forums it should be pretty obvious that mastery is not the worst stat, actually frost mages atm are stacking haste>mastery>crit, Because there is so much crit on current gear, and with new trinkets you reach crit cap on proc(many mages completely ignore crit, others go for ~20-22%). And i guess because more and more FoF BF procs occur with high haste, increasing mastery value, as well as the recent buff to water elements cast.

With that said there is no excuse for not being at hit cap =)

As far as LB vs NT, it is really fight dependant, there are few fights in ToT where NT is supperior, but many where LB is best.

as for cauterize, while I understand your incentive to suggest it, greater invis is just so much better.

[Deleted]

Drop Blazing Speed, pick up Ice Floes.

I've seen you give this advice out twice now, and I'm sorry it's not "necessary" by any means at all.

Ice Floes isn't necessarily a DPS increase over Blazing Speed, even on Durumu. For a spec that has comparatively little movement DPS compared to other class/spec combos, re-positioning is far more important in gaining overall DPS than getting more casts out is, especially if that movement is predictable and can be exploited.

It's a personal choice, leave it up to them. If it suits their playstyle better to use Blazing Speed, it's fine. It's by far from a "requirement" for any spec to choose any of the 3 talents in T1. It's *purely* down to playstyle and choice.