75 talents

[Deleted]

so i've read the guides. but not sure around what item lvl i go for sanctified wrath. they say holy avenger is better at lower item lvl(mine is 495) around were do you do the switch?

[Faesroll]

Sanctified wrath all the way regardless of ilvl.

[Deleted]

Holy avenger was better when you didn't have the old 4P that reduced AW CD. but now that AW CD is baseline 2 minutes, Sanctified Wrath is universally best. However, if you have a burn phase every minute where you need to do X damage in Y seconds every 60 seconds or you wipe, you could go for holy avenger for that extra burst.

at any rate, the difference between holy avenger and sanctified wrath is relatively minor. I played with holy avenger up until recently because I prefered the playstyle from Zealotry back in Cata and couldn't make ful use of the hammer CD reduction.

[Deleted]

kay thanks for the help guys=)

[Bonkura]

Holy avenger was better when you didn't have the old 4P that reduced AW CD. but now that AW CD is baseline 2 minutes, Sanctified Wrath is universally best.

so now that you can always line up AW and HA together suddenly SW is better? it really didnt change much.

if you're at a low amount of haste where you can't use a full HoW/Judge/Exo/TV rotation during wings then HA isn't a bad idea. but at 495 ilvl you should be there already. the difference really isn't that high though.

[Nairobi]

The difference is relatively minor, but SW is the preferred talent.

However, Ret is my OS, and even at 530ish I still use/prefer HA. Granted, I don't get to play it much (ever) in raids anymore outside of dicking around in LFR or sometimes Brawlers Guild, and obv PVP, but I still like the massive burst of HA. I've gotten so used to it, that when I've swapped to SW I've actually lost some damage from clashed globals, but that's more on me being bad than the talent being subpar.

My point is, they're all pretty close, play what you're comfortable with and good at.

[Deleted]

so now that you can always line up AW and HA together suddenly SW is better? it really didnt change much.

if you're at a low amount of haste where you can't use a full HoW/Judge/Exo/TV rotation during wings then HA isn't a bad idea. but at 495 ilvl you should be there already. the difference really isn't that high though.

it wasn't because of lining up. I don't get the math behind it myself, but it was also partly because the CD was reduced by 85 seconds, so the uptime was even greater due to SW than it is now. SW was 30/95 with set bonus, almast 1/3 uptime, but 30/180 without set bonus, or 1/6th, but this uptime had a lot more damage due to extra HoW. HA gave 18 seconds of double uptime and 20 of single uptime every 180 seconds without the set bonus, or a little over 1/5th. I'll leave you to do this calculation for HA with set bonus, because the ratio between 95 and 120 is such that calculating single and double uptime is harder.

[Bonkura]

well doesnt really matter now . If you're in doubt you could just check SimCraft anyway to compare the two options.

[Veliane]

so now that you can always line up AW and HA together suddenly SW is better?

It's the opposite really, the set bonus being nerfed and then going base (slightly nerfed again into a flat 2min) is what gave HA hopes of catching up.

SW = 10
HA = 9.5

[Booniehat]

Generally, SW is the winner. Of course, certain fights favor HA.

Two big advantages of SW:

1. Turns you semi-ranged:

Helps you dodge stuff and DPS while you move away from boss. Example could be Durumu, where you can still DPS boss as you run to a far add and run back with minimal DPS loss.Ji Kun, due to you moving out to avoid/soak puddles, and getting blown backwards. This is amazing for dealing with mechanics as you don't worry about losing ONE Templar's verdict due to out of range.

2. Lining up procs for damage:

Thing is, Simcraft sims a straightforward priority and doesn't intelligently delay Wings to maximize procs, which makes SW pull ahead with intelligent play.

Although the sims say HA is only 2-3% less than SW I am convinced it isn't true. With SW, lining up trinket procs and not losing anything (except a HoPo Generator) is incredible. I often set off Execution Sentences with Zandalari Warrior, STR proc from the SPA Trinket, GOAK 20 stacks and SW which is MASSIVE DPS. Remember that ES snapshots stats, which is why you can exploit it like a pseudo-festerblight DK.

With Holy Avenger, often ES/LH just doesn't line up right and you have to delay it or even lose 1 cooldown. You also will lost 1 Templar's Verdict by casting ES/LH during Holy Avenger which is significant (especially if you cleave with Divine Storm, or during a burn phase).

Sanctified Wrath is great on Jin, Durumu, Primordius, Iron Qon, Twins. (Off the top of my head).


Holy Avenger is good on Cleave fights and short "burst windows" to DPS.

Burst fights examples:
1. Megaera N (havent done H yet), simply because a lot of the time a head will have ~30% hp left, and your Wings come of cooldown. I've found several times that the head will die with ~ 10 seconds left on wings which is wasted as the heads go back under the mists. And if you delay popping it, you lose 20-30seconds on cooldown which may lead to losing 1 wings.
2. Lei Shen. Due to my raid's DPS, I can pop wings twice before he reaches 65% (intermission). With HA, I can get the full 2 off just as he hits 65% and ports away. With Sanctified Wrath, he ports away with ~15 seconds to spare. Also, HA's Cleave is great for bursting down the lightning orbs.
3. Council and Tortos, fairly obvious why.

Again, this depends on your raid's DPS and if you're assigned to /have to cleave.