Page 12 of 31 FirstFirst ...
2
10
11
12
13
14
22
... LastLast
  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by exriel View Post
    Nobody is forcing you to run LFR. If you have bad players in your raid that are holding you back from Normals and Heroics, boot them and recruit someone new.
    No one is holding my guild back from clearing heroic. Once flex comes out we will have to clear it every week to stay competitive and in the top 10 guilds on my realm. That is what pisses me off.

    Why are they adding flex? To please the bad players that can't kill horridon normal.

  2. #222
    I agree on what he says, very nice explained, he does not Rip or diss WOW, in any real way, but he explains A very solid argument, what player wants and need is 2 different things. To really simpelfy it, a Kid would love to eat only candy, but that is not what a kid need
    (i am 20 and dyslexic so yes i suck at spelling)

  3. #223
    I think his largest mistake is trying to use the games numbers and growing to back up the idea of exclusivity. The main reason WoW was growing by massive amounts numbers wise is because they were continually opening in new markets and the game was still fresh. It also was the first expansion of a game that took the world by storm, everyone wanted to be a part of it, or at least try it.

    It kind of makes me giggle that everyone points to WotLK as the point where they started trying to be more inclusive, when in actuality it started with Kara and then ZA. They were both 10 mans, and while much more difficult than 10 man Naxx, they were created with a smaller group in mind.

    I think what others also fail to realize is that they changed the mold of raiding because frankly, they were running out of things to do for the masses that were non-raiders. Now if they would of had things like the farm, pet battles, etc. at that time then they may not have felt the need to. However, in part the change up in Wrath was due to alot of those players that had finally gotten a taste of raiding with Kara and ZA, and had a hunger for their own level of progression.

    Now thats not to say that I disagree with him on everything. There is nothing wrong with having harder content that not everyone will get to experience, however, keeping 90% of your players out of the thing you spend the most time and money on is not really the best place to do it in my mind.

    I'll be the first to admit, that without the addition of 10 man progression that they added, I would of been finished with WoW sometime during the WotLK.
    Last edited by Armourboy; 2013-06-08 at 12:24 PM.

  4. #224
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    2,628
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    His opinion is much more valuable than anyone else. He have huge experience with game desing so dont tell me that your opinion have same value then his.
    Argumentum ad auctoritatem, really? Are we back to the 6th grade? Get a grip.


  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    It kind of makes me giggle that everyone points to WotLK as the point where they started trying to be more inclusive, when in actuality it started with Kara and then ZA. They were both 10 mans, and while much more difficult than 10 man Naxx, they were created with a smaller group in mind.
    Actually, I think it was S1, where you could lose your way in arena to "welfare epics" (the origin of that term, from a dev.)

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-08 at 12:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    I'll be the first to admit, that without the addition of 10 man progression that they added, I would of been finished with WoW sometime during the WotLK.
    And if Wrath had been like BC, I would have walked away early in the expansion. I had told myself exactly that, before Wrath came out.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Why do people think that player pool is dried up? Gaming has become more accepted over the years so older players are getting in to games and as kids grow up, they get in to gaming more than ever now with how accepted it is at a lower age level. Gaming as a whole is bigger than its ever been with numbers of people doing it and how much coverage it gets. There is no reason for "we are out of players" to be an excuse.

    I'm sure most people to this day still try WoW at some point who have an interest in gaming, they just don't stay around because of how the game is now.
    I didn't say the pool of potential players dried up, I said it's smaller than it was back at the end of Vanilla and through BC and WotLK. And it was. Consider the mythical 12 million players at some point in Wrath. If we assume a turnover rate of 30%, meaning that 30% of all people who ever played WoW gave up at some point or another (and that's a very low number!), you'd have a little over 15 million players who were either playing or had already played World of Warcraft at one point or another.

    Personally, I believe that number to be closer to 100%, meaning that except for a few folks who have been playing since Vanilla, the entire playerbase has renovated itself at least once. But I don't think you'll agree with me.

    Either way, that's at least 15 million people by the time Wrath ended, and that number is likely quite a lot bigger now. We don't know how big the pool of players who play MMORPGs is, but there's good reason to believe it's already saturated. Very few new MMOs even manage to reach half of WoW's current subscriber numbers, either because WoW has already claimed . There's talk everywhere that gamers might be losing interest in entire model of MMORPG gameplay.

    So yeah, I believe the shrinking pool of potential new players is one of the reasons World of Warcraft can't recoup its normal losses. Because nobody else can either.


    As an aside, I would have loved to know what percentage of the playerbase plays in which region. I have a feeling the Asian region accounts for far more subscriptions than we give them credit for, and so swings in their membership hit the game numbers harder than swings in the Western regions.
    Faithful worshiper of Huehuetzilopochtli.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    There's talk everywhere that gamers might be losing interest in entire model of MMORPG gameplay.
    Folks should not discount shifts in gaming. They can totally change things.

    Remember back before computers, when people played wargames on paper and cardboard maps? That was a thriving industry. Today, it's shrunk by something like two orders of magnitude. It's pretty much dead except for niches.

    The same thing could happen to MMOs, particularly if something more popular comes along to displace them.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  8. #228
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    9,570
    It generally is bad practice to get involved in a discussion about another company, especially in the industry he is in, but he definately raised some good and bad points, but remained very neutral about the whole thing, so well done on that.

    I generally agree with him, but I don't know if he is right. Personally, I love to strive for something, have a goal to move up onto. The best time of my life in World of Warcraft was when I was in a top-realm guild in Tier 11, and was in the top 20 EU Guilds with Heroics & Achievements, but ... I did get burned out, purely because there was nothing beyond Heroic to entertain me.

    For most players, that won't be the case. Going from Normal Dungeons -> Heroic Dungeons -> Looking for Raid -> Normal Mode -> Heroic Mode should provide more then enough content and stuff to do, as long as it is challenging from various aspects and due to minor limitations in gear.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Argumentum ad auctoritatem, really? Are we back to the 6th grade? Get a grip.
    You're confusing authority with experience. Yes, I would take Stephen King's recommendation for a book over my friend. 10 out of 10 times. He knows how to write a book, he has written best-selling books, he likes writing books. On the other hand, my friends barely read any books.

    Globally recognized scientists are a more important opinion on climate change than my father, too.
    Last edited by Frogged; 2013-06-08 at 02:38 PM.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  10. #230
    I personally am much more of a Dota guy than a LoL guy, but now I have much more respect for LoL after reading his responses to exclusivity of content (ie raiding).



    And, despite what people believe, I am going to trust the opinion of a guy who DESIGNS SUCCESSFUL GAMES FOR A LIVING than I would trust the opinion of some random guy in a random MMO-C thread (my opinion included).

    While his opinion might not dramatically change the way Blizzard looks at WoW, his opinion definitely carries more weight than anyone's opinion in this thread does.
    Last edited by Mammoon; 2013-06-08 at 02:47 PM.

  11. #231
    Notorious and pathological complainers and doomsayers will of course happily see this guy's opinion as the long-awaited validation of their daily WoW-related whine. But it still is, you know ... his opinion.

    One thing I definitely realized here at college: industry guys are - surprise, surprise - just people. They have their opinions and it's not gospel. A lot of our lecturers here are top guys. As a reference: PS4 launch titles that are in development right now. Alan Wake. Crysis. Call of Duty. Darksiders. Spellforce. In cinema: Avatar, Harry Potter, the Avengers ... people who obviously know their shit.

    And guess what, they all have opinions, they disagree, and while they're obviously more knowledgeable than some dweeb on MMO-Champ, it's not as if they tap into some secret grail of wisdom and see the whole thing from a completely inscrutable perspective. Their views are more or less the same you hear from anybody else, somewhere along the usual spectrum between pro and contra.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayhos View Post
    every video game has gamey aspects to it

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    You're confusing authority with experience. Yes, I would take Stephen King's recommendation for a book over my friend. 10 out of 10 times. He knows how to write a book, he has written best-selling books, he likes writing books. On the other hand, my friends barely read any books.

    Globally recognized scientists are a more important opinion on climate change than my father, too.
    With the important distinction that climate change is a scientific, objective subject. Whether people will like something or not, isn't. If it was, you wouldn't see movies that are critically panned, but popularly acclaimed.
    Faithful worshiper of Huehuetzilopochtli.

  13. #233

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    With the important distinction that climate change is a scientific, objective subject. Whether people will like something or not, isn't. If it was, you wouldn't see movies that are critically panned, but popularly acclaimed.
    You conveniently ignored my example about books. Additionally, I don't remember Morello or the thread talking about what makes Blizzard more money or what brings more subscribers, but what makes a better game (which, in turn, brings more money and subscribers).
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  15. #235
    Legendary! Anarch Son of Gods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Center of the Internet
    Posts
    6,465
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Argumentum ad auctoritatem, really? Are we back to the 6th grade? Get a grip.
    Erh... that is not an fallacious form of an argument from authority.

    For something to be an "argumentum ad auctoritatem" the authority shouldn't be a subject matter expert. In this case as a respected game developper his arguments have naturally more value than other people's opinions, because he is a subject matter expert. And people appealing to him as a higher authority are not making any logical fallacies.

    Personally, I don't understand all the fuss, and rejection of the lead dev's opinion on the matter. The problem is that it's a "new" domain here. Nobody ever had a large scale MMO before where they went on a more exclusive design philosophy... so we have nothing to compare it to. For all we know if they had kept raiding more exclusive we might've had more subscribers than we do now, or maybe less, or maybe just about the same. There is no telling really.

    The only thing I and others know is ... that we probably might've liked it better if raiding had retained some form of exclusiveness.
    Last edited by Anarch Son of Gods; 2013-06-08 at 03:34 PM.
    ♦ "It is easy to take insolence from those who are below you." ♦

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Erh... that is not an fallacious form of an argument from authority.

    For something to be an "argumentum ad auctoritatem" the authority shouldn't be a subject matter expert. In this case as a respected game developper his arguments have naturally more value than other people's opinions, because he is a subject matter expert. And people appealing to him as a higher authority are not making any logical fallacies.

    Personally, I don't understand all the fuss, and rejection of the lead dev's opinion on the matter. The problem is that it's a "new" domain here. Nobody ever had a large scale MMO before where they went on a more exclusive design philosophy... so we have nothing to compare it to. For all we know if they had kept raiding more exclusive we might've had more subscribers than we do now, or maybe less, or maybe just about the same. There is no telling really.

    The only thing I and others know is ... that we probably might've liked it better if raiding had retained some form of exclusiveness.
    No his OPINION has absolutely ZERO more value than yours or mine. Until he backs his opinion up with facts it remains just another useless opinion. Can he proof his ASSumptions? No he cannot and he isn't even one of the more experienced developers in the industry.

    I cannot fathom that people still don't get the whole "experts are not always right". There are so many experts and analysts on TV these days shouting their worthless opinions at the world.

    He provided no evidence, it reminds me of a board full of wannabe history buffs arguing about what would happend "if".
    Last edited by Baikalsan; 2013-06-08 at 03:50 PM.

  17. #237
    Legendary! Anarch Son of Gods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Center of the Internet
    Posts
    6,465
    Quote Originally Posted by Baikalsan View Post
    No his OPINION has absolutely ZERO more value than yours or mine.
    You are wrong. He has much more prooven expertise than anyone on this forum. He is the verified lead dev of a globally popular game. Unless someone else here can show evidence of their credentials that they have more expertise than him, then their opinions are of less value. That is how the world works, that is how private business works, this is how management of the state works at the highest levels of hierarchic institutions, this is even the academic correct theory behind the morality of 'good' and 'bad' in recruitment of leadership positions or functions of responsibility.
    Last edited by Anarch Son of Gods; 2013-06-08 at 03:57 PM.
    ♦ "It is easy to take insolence from those who are below you." ♦

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    You are wrong. He has much more prooven expertise than anyone on this forum. He is the verified lead dev of a globally popular game. Unless someone else here can show evidence of their credentials that they have more expertise than him, then their opinions are of less value.
    Oh my god. I cannot believe that some people lack such an amount of logical thinking capability.

    His opinion cannot have more value since he provides no evidence. How can his opinion have more value when A. there is no way to determine whether its right or wrong B. Blizzard has more experienced Developers

    So you give someonens opnion higher value even though someone here might make a better case and may have a higher chance of being right but no experience as a dev? How does that make any sense?

    Go with a scientific method to determine stuff or gtfo
    Last edited by Baikalsan; 2013-06-08 at 04:01 PM.

  19. #239
    Legendary! Anarch Son of Gods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Center of the Internet
    Posts
    6,465
    Quote Originally Posted by Baikalsan View Post
    Go with a scientific method or gtfo
    The real world doesn't work with a "scientific method". Go read up to understand the ethics on leadership and responsibility instead of thinking that everything is about 'surreal' logics.
    ♦ "It is easy to take insolence from those who are below you." ♦

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    No one is holding my guild back from clearing heroic. Once flex comes out we will have to clear it every week to stay competitive and in the top 10 guilds on my realm. That is what pisses me off.

    Why are they adding flex? To please the bad players that can't kill horridon normal.
    if your playstyle is unhealthy and borderline insane there is absolutely no reason why blizzard should cater to it, and not add a feature that will be extremely good for the game.
    Last edited by Gniral; 2013-06-08 at 04:11 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •