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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    You're confusing authority with experience. Yes, I would take Stephen King's recommendation for a book over my friend. 10 out of 10 times. He knows how to write a book, he has written best-selling books, he likes writing books. On the other hand, my friends barely read any books.

    Globally recognized scientists are a more important opinion on climate change than my father, too.
    With the important distinction that climate change is a scientific, objective subject. Whether people will like something or not, isn't. If it was, you wouldn't see movies that are critically panned, but popularly acclaimed.
    Nothing ever bothers Juular.

  2. #222
    BC was good, but WotlK was best.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    With the important distinction that climate change is a scientific, objective subject. Whether people will like something or not, isn't. If it was, you wouldn't see movies that are critically panned, but popularly acclaimed.
    You conveniently ignored my example about books. Additionally, I don't remember Morello or the thread talking about what makes Blizzard more money or what brings more subscribers, but what makes a better game (which, in turn, brings more money and subscribers).
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  4. #224
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Erh... that is not an fallacious form of an argument from authority.

    For something to be an "argumentum ad auctoritatem" the authority shouldn't be a subject matter expert. In this case as a respected game developper his arguments have naturally more value than other people's opinions, because he is a subject matter expert. And people appealing to him as a higher authority are not making any logical fallacies.

    Personally, I don't understand all the fuss, and rejection of the lead dev's opinion on the matter. The problem is that it's a "new" domain here. Nobody ever had a large scale MMO before where they went on a more exclusive design philosophy... so we have nothing to compare it to. For all we know if they had kept raiding more exclusive we might've had more subscribers than we do now, or maybe less, or maybe just about the same. There is no telling really.

    The only thing I and others know is ... that we probably might've liked it better if raiding had retained some form of exclusiveness.
    No his OPINION has absolutely ZERO more value than yours or mine. Until he backs his opinion up with facts it remains just another useless opinion. Can he proof his ASSumptions? No he cannot and he isn't even one of the more experienced developers in the industry.

    I cannot fathom that people still don't get the whole "experts are not always right". There are so many experts and analysts on TV these days shouting their worthless opinions at the world.

    He provided no evidence, it reminds me of a board full of wannabe history buffs arguing about what would happend "if".
    Last edited by mmoc0d8e6c2903; 2013-06-08 at 03:50 PM.

  5. #225
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    You are wrong. He has much more prooven expertise than anyone on this forum. He is the verified lead dev of a globally popular game. Unless someone else here can show evidence of their credentials that they have more expertise than him, then their opinions are of less value.
    Oh my god. I cannot believe that some people lack such an amount of logical thinking capability.

    His opinion cannot have more value since he provides no evidence. How can his opinion have more value when A. there is no way to determine whether its right or wrong B. Blizzard has more experienced Developers

    So you give someonens opnion higher value even though someone here might make a better case and may have a higher chance of being right but no experience as a dev? How does that make any sense?

    Go with a scientific method to determine stuff or gtfo
    Last edited by mmoc0d8e6c2903; 2013-06-08 at 04:01 PM.

  6. #226
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    No one is holding my guild back from clearing heroic. Once flex comes out we will have to clear it every week to stay competitive and in the top 10 guilds on my realm. That is what pisses me off.

    Why are they adding flex? To please the bad players that can't kill horridon normal.
    if your playstyle is unhealthy and borderline insane there is absolutely no reason why blizzard should cater to it, and not add a feature that will be extremely good for the game.
    Last edited by mmoca014cf7a55; 2013-06-08 at 04:11 PM.

  7. #227
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    The real world doesn't work with a "scientific method". Go read up to understand the ethics on leadership and responsibility instead of thinking that everything is about 'surreal' logics.
    What an ignorant statement, I would be ashamed of myself living in the 21th century. Surreal logics? What on earth is that? I know that quantum physics seem to be abstract but they are in no way surreal.

    Science works perfectly in every field known to mankind, especially when it comes to economics and even human relationships. You can explain behavior, ethics, "morales", everything is possible to explain once you get enough information. This LoL dev here has 0 relevant information and facts > useless opinion.

  8. #228
    A few things need to be clear here.

    1) He is a game designer, so his opinion does hold more weight over the average armchair developer.
    2) It does not mean he is correct. Even game designers share certain opinions that will not work in practice, otherwise no game would ever be a failure. His game does not share the same sensibilities as an MMO, so he can't base his opinion off experience in the genre, only experience as a player.

    What this means is that we should respect how he feels, but disagreeing with it does not mean we are automatically wrong just because of his history. He can, and frankly is, looking in the wrong direction.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Erh... that is not an fallacious form of an argument from authority.

    For something to be an "argumentum ad auctoritatem" the authority shouldn't be a subject matter expert. In this case as a respected game developper his arguments have naturally more value than other people's opinions, because he is a subject matter expert. And people appealing to him as a higher authority are not making any logical fallacies.
    A respected game developer of a game that everyone keeps telling me is so different from WoW that I shouldn't compare the two.

    Either his experience is relatable to WoW or it isn't. If it is, one has to ask why he doesn't implement the same philosophies in his own game. If it isn't, then perhaps his opinion of what Blizzard did wrong is not worth very much.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-08 at 10:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    You are wrong. He has much more prooven expertise than anyone on this forum. He is the verified lead dev of a globally popular game.
    A game which is completely void of exclusive content. So when the lead designer of a game without any exclusive content comes out and criticizes another company for not having enough exclusive content it sounds like he's a hypocrite.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    Jesus Christ I just gained a lot of respect for that guy.

    He's one of the most logical people I've seen talk about WoW from a neutral standpoint and defend it properly.
    I'm with ya there Destil, It was like a breath of fresh air reading all those posts.

    Sometimes things need to be exclusive & if people don't like it to bad for them, it makes people wanna work harder & play longer. An hasn't this been what everyone has been talking about all these years ??
    Last edited by Arbs; 2013-06-08 at 05:30 PM.
    I don't always hunt things, But when I do, It's because they're things & I'm a Bear.


  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I meant "immaterial" logics, mathematics, science, taking opinions and basing their validity on the grounds of deducation and rationality. Sure, there should be a healthy dose of that, but game design is not an exact science.

    The dude's opinion IS academically of more value simply on the basis of his experience, and his subject-matter expertise.

    Think of it this way: Who do you think a company is going to recruit?
    A. A lead dev of a majorly popular online MOBA/RPG game?
    or
    B. Random dweeb from some online forums who has a logically coherent theory about game design?

    It would be ethically and moraly wrong to recruit person "B" in this situation... It's obvious that you're a student of the exact sciences, but unknowledgable about applied social sciences...
    I already stated this before, but I would value the opinion of some random dweeb who has a logically coherent theory about game design over the opinion of a lead dev hypocrite who admonishes another company for something that he himself does in his own game.

  12. #232
    A few things other than raids need to be considered regarding the inclusive/exclusive debate. Only Osmeric even brought up the start of arena and the term "welfare epics"

    Also, I don't hate Ghostcrawler, but he started in games with RTSs and made his way straight to an MMO. Clearly, there is room to say that a MOBA dev could transition his knowledge to an MMO also. Yes, that is a very blatant example I'm using for good reason. Either you agree or disagree, but there should be no discrediting.
    It wasn't long ago / I was just like you / And now I think I'm sick and I wanna go home!
    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    what if SEARING WOLVES? The possibilities?!!?

  13. #233
    These are some of the only logical posts I've ever seen Morello make.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by wynnyelle View Post
    These are some of the only logical posts I've ever seen Morello make.
    troof, lol.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Archdruid Dehydrate View Post
    I'm with ya there Destil, It was like a breath of fresh air reading all those posts.

    Sometimes things need to be exclusive & if people don't like it to bad for them, it makes people wanna work harder & play longer. An hasn't this been what everyone has been talking about all these years ??
    I agree and I feel this could be applied to the pvp changes too (elite gear recolors, etc). We're catering to the lowest common denominator now. Is this really what people want, to afk and half-ass through a raid and still down raid bosses? To not be challenged to work harder, communicate better, work as a team more in a raid setting? Normal mode is not that difficult or inaccessible.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Archdruid Dehydrate View Post
    Sometimes things need to be exclusive & if people don't like it to bad for them, it makes people wanna work harder & play longer.
    Ghostcrawler says that's "a pervasive myth".

    So, sorry, you're largely wrong.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Ghostcrawler says that's "a pervasive myth".

    So, sorry, you're largely wrong.
    Funny but exclusive content was what pushed me to raid in the first place. Ghostcrawler doesn't speak for me or half of the people I know who play this game. Why bother quoting GC anyways, if anything he has proven to me that he is out of touch with the game he works on (evident in almost all of his blogs/a good portion of his tweets) and the playerbase as a whole.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Ghostcrawler says that's "a pervasive myth".
    GC is Jesus.


    I can already tell him he's an idiot, if he actually said that. Just take my alts for example. I got them to 500 ilvl in 2 raid lockouts, no problem. Our guild, while heavy into Heroic progression, can't form an alt raid to save our lives. My alts are not challenged by LFR at all, so why am I running LFR? So I can heal people harder in future LFRs? There's no reason for me to keep logging into this character until 5.4. If I were a casual player, I'd have nothing to do. No reason to want to get more stuff.

    Sounds like a great game to pay for.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Funny but exclusive content was what pushed me to raid in the first place. Ghostcrawler doesn't speak for me or half of the people I know who play this game. Why bother quoting GC anyways, if anything he has proven to me that he is out of touch with the game he works on (evident in almost all of his blogs/a good portion of his tweets) and the playerbase as a whole.
    GC is saying you're not a typical player. He has the statistics on what people do, and you don't, so how is it you think you know better? You're just substituting aggression for intelligence.

    If you look at GC's tweet, it ends it with a frown emoticon. He doesn't LIKE that people don't rise to challenges, but he's wise enough not to deny evidence simply because he doesn't like it.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-06-08 at 06:38 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  20. #240
    I think a better example of giving players what they "want" instead of what they "need" is PvE -> PvP transfers and faction changes, as this thread will attest: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ce!-Reroll-now!

    If you read through the thread it's a pretty sad story of PvE -> PvP transfers destroying the faction balance on many PvP servers and effectively transforming them into PvE servers.

    According to the anecdotes in this thread, faction changes continue to have a deleterious effect on faction balance, amplified by the current sale: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Raiding-Guilds

    Then again, I'm sure Blizz "needed" the money they got from giving the players what they "wanted."

    My point in posting this is Blizzard has been guilty of giving players what they "want" instead of what they "need," but I disagree that accessible raid content is an example of this.
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-06-08 at 07:33 PM.

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