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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    The real world doesn't work with a "scientific method". Go read up to understand the ethics on leadership and responsibility instead of thinking that everything is about 'surreal' logics.
    What an ignorant statement, I would be ashamed of myself living in the 21th century. Surreal logics? What on earth is that? I know that quantum physics seem to be abstract but they are in no way surreal.

    Science works perfectly in every field known to mankind, especially when it comes to economics and even human relationships. You can explain behavior, ethics, "morales", everything is possible to explain once you get enough information. This LoL dev here has 0 relevant information and facts > useless opinion.

  2. #242
    Immortal True Anarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baikalsan View Post
    What an ignorant statement, I would be ashamed of myself living in the 21th century. Surreal logics? What on earth is that? I know that quantum physics seem to be abstract but they are in no way surreal.
    I meant "immaterial" logics, mathematics, science, taking opinions and basing their validity on the grounds of deducation and rationality. Sure, there should be a healthy dose of that, but game design is not an exact science.

    The dude's opinion IS academically of more value simply on the basis of his experience, and his subject-matter expertise.

    Think of it this way: Who do you think a company is going to recruit?
    A. A lead dev of a majorly popular online MOBA/RPG game?
    or
    B. Random dweeb from some online forums who has a logically coherent theory about game design?

    It would be ethically and moraly wrong to recruit person "B" in this situation... It's obvious that you're a student of the exact sciences, but unknowledgable about applied social sciences...
    "Anarchism is famously opposed to the State, while at the same time advocating planned administration of things in the interest of the community."
    Today, anarchists dedicated to these goals often support state power to protect people, society and the earth itself from the ravages of concentrated private capital. That's no contradiction. People live and suffer and endure in the existing society.

  3. #243
    A few things need to be clear here.

    1) He is a game designer, so his opinion does hold more weight over the average armchair developer.
    2) It does not mean he is correct. Even game designers share certain opinions that will not work in practice, otherwise no game would ever be a failure. His game does not share the same sensibilities as an MMO, so he can't base his opinion off experience in the genre, only experience as a player.

    What this means is that we should respect how he feels, but disagreeing with it does not mean we are automatically wrong just because of his history. He can, and frankly is, looking in the wrong direction.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Erh... that is not an fallacious form of an argument from authority.

    For something to be an "argumentum ad auctoritatem" the authority shouldn't be a subject matter expert. In this case as a respected game developper his arguments have naturally more value than other people's opinions, because he is a subject matter expert. And people appealing to him as a higher authority are not making any logical fallacies.
    A respected game developer of a game that everyone keeps telling me is so different from WoW that I shouldn't compare the two.

    Either his experience is relatable to WoW or it isn't. If it is, one has to ask why he doesn't implement the same philosophies in his own game. If it isn't, then perhaps his opinion of what Blizzard did wrong is not worth very much.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-08 at 10:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    You are wrong. He has much more prooven expertise than anyone on this forum. He is the verified lead dev of a globally popular game.
    A game which is completely void of exclusive content. So when the lead designer of a game without any exclusive content comes out and criticizes another company for not having enough exclusive content it sounds like he's a hypocrite.

  5. #245
    Elemental Lord Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    Jesus Christ I just gained a lot of respect for that guy.

    He's one of the most logical people I've seen talk about WoW from a neutral standpoint and defend it properly.
    I'm with ya there Destil, It was like a breath of fresh air reading all those posts.

    Sometimes things need to be exclusive & if people don't like it to bad for them, it makes people wanna work harder & play longer. An hasn't this been what everyone has been talking about all these years ??
    Last edited by Arbs; 2013-06-08 at 05:30 PM.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I meant "immaterial" logics, mathematics, science, taking opinions and basing their validity on the grounds of deducation and rationality. Sure, there should be a healthy dose of that, but game design is not an exact science.

    The dude's opinion IS academically of more value simply on the basis of his experience, and his subject-matter expertise.

    Think of it this way: Who do you think a company is going to recruit?
    A. A lead dev of a majorly popular online MOBA/RPG game?
    or
    B. Random dweeb from some online forums who has a logically coherent theory about game design?

    It would be ethically and moraly wrong to recruit person "B" in this situation... It's obvious that you're a student of the exact sciences, but unknowledgable about applied social sciences...
    I already stated this before, but I would value the opinion of some random dweeb who has a logically coherent theory about game design over the opinion of a lead dev hypocrite who admonishes another company for something that he himself does in his own game.

  7. #247
    A few things other than raids need to be considered regarding the inclusive/exclusive debate. Only Osmeric even brought up the start of arena and the term "welfare epics"

    Also, I don't hate Ghostcrawler, but he started in games with RTSs and made his way straight to an MMO. Clearly, there is room to say that a MOBA dev could transition his knowledge to an MMO also. Yes, that is a very blatant example I'm using for good reason. Either you agree or disagree, but there should be no discrediting.
    It wasn't long ago / I was just like you / And now I think I'm sick and I wanna go home!
    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    what if SEARING WOLVES? The possibilities?!!?

  8. #248
    These are some of the only logical posts I've ever seen Morello make.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by wynnyelle View Post
    These are some of the only logical posts I've ever seen Morello make.
    troof, lol.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Archdruid Dehydrate View Post
    I'm with ya there Destil, It was like a breath of fresh air reading all those posts.

    Sometimes things need to be exclusive & if people don't like it to bad for them, it makes people wanna work harder & play longer. An hasn't this been what everyone has been talking about all these years ??
    I agree and I feel this could be applied to the pvp changes too (elite gear recolors, etc). We're catering to the lowest common denominator now. Is this really what people want, to afk and half-ass through a raid and still down raid bosses? To not be challenged to work harder, communicate better, work as a team more in a raid setting? Normal mode is not that difficult or inaccessible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    And since we're dredging up old-world stuff, she should be happy she was even allowed to become a nurse at all instead of being raped.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Archdruid Dehydrate View Post
    Sometimes things need to be exclusive & if people don't like it to bad for them, it makes people wanna work harder & play longer.
    Ghostcrawler says that's "a pervasive myth".

    So, sorry, you're largely wrong.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Ghostcrawler says that's "a pervasive myth".

    So, sorry, you're largely wrong.
    Funny but exclusive content was what pushed me to raid in the first place. Ghostcrawler doesn't speak for me or half of the people I know who play this game. Why bother quoting GC anyways, if anything he has proven to me that he is out of touch with the game he works on (evident in almost all of his blogs/a good portion of his tweets) and the playerbase as a whole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    And since we're dredging up old-world stuff, she should be happy she was even allowed to become a nurse at all instead of being raped.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Ghostcrawler says that's "a pervasive myth".
    GC is Jesus.


    I can already tell him he's an idiot, if he actually said that. Just take my alts for example. I got them to 500 ilvl in 2 raid lockouts, no problem. Our guild, while heavy into Heroic progression, can't form an alt raid to save our lives. My alts are not challenged by LFR at all, so why am I running LFR? So I can heal people harder in future LFRs? There's no reason for me to keep logging into this character until 5.4. If I were a casual player, I'd have nothing to do. No reason to want to get more stuff.

    Sounds like a great game to pay for.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Funny but exclusive content was what pushed me to raid in the first place. Ghostcrawler doesn't speak for me or half of the people I know who play this game. Why bother quoting GC anyways, if anything he has proven to me that he is out of touch with the game he works on (evident in almost all of his blogs/a good portion of his tweets) and the playerbase as a whole.
    GC is saying you're not a typical player. He has the statistics on what people do, and you don't, so how is it you think you know better? You're just substituting aggression for intelligence.

    If you look at GC's tweet, it ends it with a frown emoticon. He doesn't LIKE that people don't rise to challenges, but he's wise enough not to deny evidence simply because he doesn't like it.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-06-08 at 06:38 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  15. #255
    I think a better example of giving players what they "want" instead of what they "need" is PvE -> PvP transfers and faction changes, as this thread will attest: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ce!-Reroll-now!

    If you read through the thread it's a pretty sad story of PvE -> PvP transfers destroying the faction balance on many PvP servers and effectively transforming them into PvE servers.

    According to the anecdotes in this thread, faction changes continue to have a deleterious effect on faction balance, amplified by the current sale: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Raiding-Guilds

    Then again, I'm sure Blizz "needed" the money they got from giving the players what they "wanted."

    My point in posting this is Blizzard has been guilty of giving players what they "want" instead of what they "need," but I disagree that accessible raid content is an example of this.
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-06-08 at 07:33 PM.

  16. #256
    Hey guys, here's GC's reply about what Morello has said


  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by High Priestess Ishanah View Post
    I quite agree. The illusion of exclusivity and "neverending content" that Average Joe will never see is a core and essential part of the game. It gives people a goal to reach, impossible or otherwise.

    as it stands, you can see everything every raid has to offer with ease - "hard modes" are just the same thing for a more dedicated crowd. It's not the same. People get bored. People unsub. People think back to better times with better content (better because they didn't get to wear it out) and lose the inclination to keep playing.

    Like it or not, on some primal level, people WANT a goal they can't reach. They WANT content they'll only ever be able to see by looking up videos and getting involved in the community. It vindicates their investment. And if they DO ever reach it, it's an actual accomplishment instead of just the same thing everyone else in the game is doing.
    Likewise, there are JUST as many, if not MORE people who will quit a game because it's too hard. 4.0 was a prime example of that.

  18. #258
    Immortal True Anarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    I already stated this before, but I would value the opinion of some random dweeb who has a logically coherent theory about game design over the opinion of a lead dev hypocrite who admonishes another company for something that he himself does in his own game.
    I did not see him admonish anyone in what he said. He simply had a different opinion on how he would've let the game evolve and develop. Ghostcrawler seems to agree with his words in a very subtle way... in the sense that he 'admits' how they made raiding too easy in WotLK, so too many people got a taste of it and wanted more. And that it's more a matter of not being able to go back anymore now...
    "Anarchism is famously opposed to the State, while at the same time advocating planned administration of things in the interest of the community."
    Today, anarchists dedicated to these goals often support state power to protect people, society and the earth itself from the ravages of concentrated private capital. That's no contradiction. People live and suffer and endure in the existing society.

  19. #259
    High Overlord magicric's Avatar
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    For all you WoW fan boys who thinks WoW is the biggest most profitable game in the world, have a read of this.
    gamasutra.com/view/news/179324/

    I think League of Legends Lead Content Designer 'Morello' Scott's opinion on WoW is spot on and should be respected and listened to.

  20. #260
    This guy lost me when he said he doesn't think Raids should be inclusive and there needs to be a "Psychological trick" to lure players into raiding.

    Greg Street sounds like he is looking out for the silent majority who don't have time for invisible rewards set by a minority of players saving the best items aside for themselves and handing out scraps.

    This is a game where players (i.e. 15-40yrs of age) should take time at the end of their day to log on with friends to enjoy being a Wizards or a warrior. Not friggin Wall Street backstabbing your way to the top of some Gamer pyramid 18 hours a day for a 16 year old tyrant. Also forum posters are just like everyone else on the internet, an anonymous know-it-all who 85% of the time has nothing better to do than troll or complain any relevant topic that appears.

    There's a reason why Warcraft is so large and its not because of keeping people from seeing content. Its because people were part of a story where an army of "Savages" and "Knights" decided to take on the Death itself (Wrath), An invasion from Hell(BC), and an apocalypse worthy of Lovecraft(Cata).

    Its all about a "Worthy Foe" within the story itself, the rest is just technical shit honestly.

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