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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Massive block? There was no block. Every decent player was able to play these instances. It was only a block for the standard dungeon finder troll, that don't know what this shiny picture in the action bar are...
    I have played since vanilla. I met dozens of people that wouldn't do heroics because the tuning was too high. It had nothing to do with being unable to use action bars. Some people don't play for the challenge over the reward and experience. They play flag football with the brows because it's fun, not because they are looking to join the pros.

    Everytime i heard this argument, but without a doubt: A minority is in the game, that play the game only for one hour a day.
    You believe that, chum. You are dead wrong, but you go on believing it.

  2. #402
    I hardly would have called myself hardcore, no where close, but I found the content just as accessible to be frank. In terms of difficulty, the game back then really was not any harder than it is now, especially when thinking about the current Heroic Modes. You claim that the current user base would not tolerate such an 'exclusive' model now, but the current feedback and subscriber numbers seem to indicate something completely different than what you are suggesting, even though this is a very simplified view of the state of the game and subscriber numbers, it is still relevant to your claims.
    Lets review the facts.

    1. Subs are falling moderately
    2. People complain (but they always complain)
    3. Blizzard is targeting accessibility since cata launch when they tried hard heroics

    The theory I subscribe to is that current sub decrease is due to the fact the game is old, and there isn't as many new players joining. Blizzard seems to agree and they are increasing the accessibility and levelling experience in an attempt to mitigate sub loss.

    Now with regards to your personal experiences, if you feel that BC was just as easy (a measurement of difficulty) then it probable that you are not the group that Blizzard is targeting. One of the biggest challenges in WOW (and this is a form of difficulty) is to find coop content. In BC, if you managed to get into a guild that suited your style, timing and progression you are probably a lucky person. There were many people that did not find such a thing. I personally knew many guilds who were so deprived of content that they never ever managed to clear a single 5man heroic in BC. They spent their times in their daily 10 quests and raising alts. This was serious deprivation and no such player will ever consent to such an experience again.

    LFD was literally a divine gift. The chances of finding a group in /2 in combination with people leaving before and during the run was extremely low. Someone leaving halfway for whatever reason meant a saved failed run. Spamming in /2 was a sign of desperation and no one wanted reasonably geared characters. They wanted FULL TIER 6 BADGE GEAR characters to run with. It doesn't matter if you slowly acquired every possible upgrade before 5heroics and were in full dungeon set. They didn't want you. Its not just the time to find a /2 spam party, its the ability to find replacements, the power to avoid elitist snobs and the the party not breaking down into a fail heroic saved run. All of this was worth far more than 20min. Some would even say its worth more than 120min. At the very least.

    LFR was another divine gift. Do you know how many players have never ever seen the inside of a raid? Or actually made it past the first 2-3 bosses from one of the regular PUGs? Blizzard does. And they wisely decided that it was too many players. They understand that not everyone has a raiding guild or the time to bang their head against the wall in wipefests. They wisely decided that it is better to allow such players to see content than to leave them with only the new LFD to play with. (Or worse, before WOTLK's LFD there was only dailies/alts for the non PVP players). A player with a raiding guild may never be able to understand the emotion involved in finally seeing deathwing in LFR. I know of players who saw they're first ever raid content there in dragon's soul. Having been put off even 5man heroics by the pre end of time 5mans.

    Cross realm coop is another really good thing they did. I made so many xrealm friends, I'm truly glad this existed. Every 5man heroic run is a joy. Its either i'm truly lucky or somehow i convince trolls to play nice.

    Lastly, Blizzard has targeted accessibility over good engaging content, and I don't care how much you pretend to say that such accessible content is engaging because in it's current format it isn't, people play and then they leave quite fast because of how accessible it is. So if we're not the target audience and we leave, the people who stay eventually leave to, because that is what is happening right now, it's a cascade effect. There is a middle ground to be met, somewhere between TBC and WotLK, but Blizzard horrible overshot the mark or didn't want the game to go there at all (due to the vocal player feedback), and the game has been steadily declining since then.
    WOW in pandaland is arguably the most accessible ever. I love it to hell and back. Yes i've been unsubbed for a bit but I would recommend it heartily to many and recently with a 7day free mail coupon, I see its as amazingly fun and accessible as ever. There is no middle ground. There is only more and more accessibility until Blizzard decides to change course. You think the above changes are too much? You haven't seen nothing yet. Look at what is on the horizon or recently done in pandaland

    PVP is targeted as a place that isn't accessible. They impose an ilvl ceiling. They increase the ease of gearing. There's probably quite a bit more they can do to make it more accessible too.

    LFR is targeted as a place that isn't accessible enough. You get a stacking buff when you wipe now. Its a pretty powerful buff too at 5% a stack. Any boss that causes too many wipes gets pounded by the nerfbat. There's a lot more they can do as well.

    The levelling curve is probably the next on their list but the direction is clear. Accessibility is the goal. Exclusiveness is not what they want but they'll occasionally throw a bone to the elitist like having achievements for prenerf content.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    I have played since vanilla. I met dozens of people that wouldn't do heroics because the tuning was too high. It had nothing to do with being unable to use action bars. Some people don't play for the challenge over the reward and experience. They play flag football with the brows because it's fun, not because they are looking to join the pros.
    Then you had non heroics. But wait... you want better rewards, but don't want to play better. Why you should get better rewards, if you don't want to play better to get them? Heroics in cata weren't hard. The problem is, that the 5 mans in wotlk were far too easy, so most of the players unlearned to handle the game right.

    You believe that, chum. You are dead wrong, but you go on believing it.
    I think, i'm right with that. But feel free to prove me wrong.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    I have played since vanilla. I met dozens of people that wouldn't do heroics because the tuning was too high. It had nothing to do with being unable to use action bars. Some people don't play for the challenge over the reward and experience.
    But come on you'd have to agree that heroic/scenario farm + LFR as it is right now can only be discribed as "fun" for an extremely small part of the playerbase. Most people that I know that don't raid are unsubbed right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gniral View Post
    Cata drops were due to excessive difficulty and exclusivity, while the recent drop is due to the game getting increasingly old, to higher competition on the market and to China going to other type of games.
    So after Cata the game suddenly got old. Cata by itself was extremely easy after the first raid tier (with the exception of heroic rag). The subs still kept dropping. Remember that they came up with the annual pass and D3 just to keep people subbed into DS? Arguably the easiest and worst raid (granted not just because of the difficulty and LFR but still) in Cata.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Then you had non heroics. But wait... you want better rewards, but don't want to play better. Why you should get better rewards, if you don't want to play better to get them? Heroics in cata weren't hard. The problem is, that the 5 mans in wotlk were far too easy, so most of the players unlearned to handle the game right.
    Idk why people are so hooked up on the dungeon heroics argument. Blizzard fixed their mistake in the 3/5 department in MoP. They just switched the tagging from normal/heroic to heroic/challenge (notice how there aren't any normals anymore?).

    Also arguably the new heroic scenarios are just as hard as Cata heroics if you tackle them without raid gear.
    Last edited by gend; 2013-06-10 at 03:26 PM.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by gend View Post
    But come on you'd have to agree that heroic/scenario farm + LFR as it is right now can only be discribed as "fun" for an extremely small part of the playerbase. Most people that I know that don't raid are unsubbed right now.
    Emphasis on the important bit. Be careful with the confirmation bias. The people you know are unsubbed. Realistically, you have no insight in what the other 8 million people who are still playing are thinking or enjoying.
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    I have played since vanilla. I met dozens of people that wouldn't do heroics because the tuning was too high. It had nothing to do with being unable to use action bars. Some people don't play for the challenge over the reward and experience. They play flag football with the brows because it's fun, not because they are looking to join the pros.
    Literally 80% of the people I knew in BC were like this. There was this one guild a bit more ambitious than most, they entered shattered halls, wiped in the first trash wave and the trauma was too much for them to attempt it ever again. Every time I invited them for a heroic they didn't dare to accept. The strongest and most powerful guild in knew in BC could not clear Attuman in Kara. I actually joined them once as a replacement for their tank to see what was wrong. It was their healer. A holy paladin who couldn't control her mana properly. Kara was a 10raid. At proper gear levels, with a healer who couldn't perform, they had no chance. But you can't expect a guild to dump a friend simply because she's not good. They continued to bang their head against the wall for a good 6 weeks then gave up.

    I don't think such things are good for WOW in general. Its the casuals, the weak players, the foolish and the incompetent that need help. Ignore them and they reach for the unsub button faster then a speeding Cure March. It is these players that have perhaps been adding to WOW's sub count as accessibility was increased again and again.

    I loved the cata launch heroics. Hard 5man content on an instant group finder is awesome fun. The most fun I've ever had in a 5man was in cata launch. Yet, easier 5mans aren't that bad really, even if they're not my preference. If it makes such a big difference to others, I can take easier ones.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Emphasis on the important bit. Be careful with the confirmation bias. Realistically, you have no insight in what the other 8 million people who are still playing are thinking or enjoying.
    Realistically people can be categorized in a small amount of groups that tend to share the same behavior (with overlapping to other groups). You don't need to argue with 8 million different mindsets about something because they don't exist.

  8. #408
    Pandaren Monk finskee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatsune View Post
    The theory I subscribe to is that current sub decrease is due to the fact the game is old, and there isn't as many new players joining. Blizzard seems to agree and they are increasing the accessibility and levelling experience in an attempt to mitigate sub loss.
    Stop theorizing. The facts are out there:

    Jeff Kaplan in 2006:A. My biggest hope is that for fans of World of Warcraft, the Burning Crusade will be the only game that’s better than World of Warcraft. Our biggest goal with it is to ensure that there is a lot of content that caters to everyone’s play style. We have a lot of people with a lot of different ways of playing the game, and we want everyone to feel like they’re getting what they need.

    Why does everyone make up these theories to back their own QQ? The developers of wow are not slaves to your whims they think and feel too.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by finskee View Post
    Stop theorizing. The facts are out there:

    Jeff Kaplan in 2006:A. My biggest hope is that for fans of World of Warcraft, the Burning Crusade will be the only game that’s better than World of Warcraft. Our biggest goal with it is to ensure that there is a lot of content that caters to everyone’s play style. We have a lot of people with a lot of different ways of playing the game, and we want everyone to feel like they’re getting what they need.

    Why does everyone make up these theories to back their own QQ? The developers of wow are not slaves to your whims they think and feel too.
    Help me understand. Why is a 2006 quote supposedly able to factually explain why there's a sub drop?

  10. #410
    Pandaren Monk finskee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Realistically people can be categorized in a small amount of groups that tend to share the same behavior (with overlapping to other groups). You don't need to argue with 8 million different mindsets about something because they don't exist.
    You're arguing about nothing. Face it. There may be a few people who log in to play an hour a day. Who cares? Why do you? You think they shouldn't play your game too? You think they are finishing heroic raids? Let them do what they want!

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 08:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsune View Post
    Help me understand. Why is a 2006 quote supposedly able to factually explain why there's a sub drop?
    You fail at comprehension, it has everything to do with why the sub drop has nothing to do with them increasing the accessibility. The proof is right there and in all his interviews, they wanted accessibility from the start.
    Last edited by finskee; 2013-06-10 at 03:31 PM.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by finskee View Post
    You're arguing about nothing. Face it. There may be a few people who log in to play an hour a day. Who cares? Why do you?
    People complaining about the game and overexaggerate things like "playtime" to excuse their behavior of "playing like we want". The result is, the game is getting worse for everyone because of those people.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Realistically people can be categorized in a small amount of groups that tend to share the same behavior (with overlapping to other groups). You don't need to argue with 8 million different mindsets about something because they don't exist.
    True, but if you're a "serious" raider then you are already part of a minority and so the group you're included in will also be very small and so your insight on the playerbase at large is very limited. Most people will not play something they don't enjoy, and LFR seems to be a popular development with the general crowd. From that you can very easily deduce that yes, a lot of people enjoy LFR.
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  13. #413
    Pandaren Monk finskee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    People complaining about the game and overexaggerate things like "playtime" to excuse their behavior of "playing like we want". The result is, the game is getting worse for everyone because of those people.
    The game is not getting worse for me. You're generalizing, and two posts ago you said that wasn't a good idea. Besides, look at tigole's quote again, does he not say you should play the game how you want and still have fun?

    "We have a lot of people with a lot of different ways of playing the game, and we want everyone to feel like they’re getting what they need."
    Last edited by finskee; 2013-06-10 at 03:37 PM.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    People complaining about the game and overexaggerate things like "playtime" to excuse their behavior of "playing like we want". The result is, the game is getting worse for everyone because of those people.
    Or it's getting better. We just need to bring back some of the convenience and we will be perfect. Let heirlooms go up to 90. Tome of Flying like WOTLK that can be sent to alts for flying in Pandaria, etc...

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Or it's getting better. We just need to bring back some of the convenience and we will be perfect. Let heirlooms go up to 90. Tome of Flying like WOTLK that can be sent to alts for flying in Pandaria, etc...
    I would have no problems with that.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Have you ever heard of the concept of difficulty ? Not everybody can do anything, no matter how much they train.
    Are you suggesting WoW is too hard? Thats worse than the 'i dont have time to raid so i sit in queue for 6 hours' argument. The game isnt too hard, people just dont like to admit they need to get better and try.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Emphasis on the important bit. Be careful with the confirmation bias. The people you know are unsubbed. Realistically, you have no insight in what the other 8 million people who are still playing are thinking or enjoying.
    Thanks captain obvious. But there is no unbiased data on this now is there?

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Brodeo View Post
    Are you suggesting WoW is too hard?
    WoW has components of many different levels of difficulty, so "WoW is too hard" is poorly defined.

    At the present, it is a demonstrable fact that organized (beyond LFR) raiding is too hard (either for them to do, or to want to do) for the vast majority of players. The response to that fact, confirmed by the actions of the devs, is to add flex mode raids between LFR and normal.

    The game isnt too hard, people just dont like to admit they need to get better and try.
    I think people would readily admit that if they (and their friends) were better, and if they tried more, they could get farther.

    But those people would also say they don't need to do that. If they needed to do that, they'd be doing it. Obviously, they feel no "need".

    What you are claiming is that you think they should fee that need. But that is silly; who are you to define what they should want?
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-06-10 at 03:42 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  19. #419
    Pandaren Monk finskee's Avatar
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    In a game where everyone can complete anything (like most mmo's) the best player is the one who completes it the fastest, thats how you measure skill. That's how it is in so many games. Think about it. How fast can you finish heroic TOT? THAT IS THE QUESTION!

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by finskee View Post
    In a game where everyone can complete anything (like most mmo's) the best player is the one who completes it the fastest, thats how you measure skill. That's how it is in so many games. Think about it. How fast can you finish heroic TOT? THAT IS THE QUESTION!
    Your personal skill can be over NINETHOUSAND if your raid sucks.

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