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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    This thread reminded me of everything horrible with the WoW community, notably the tendency to act like dirty politicians whenever they decide to take a side, dodging arguments, escaping questions, attacking the speaker instead of trying to refute what he is saying, etc. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, you are acting like children.

    1) Stop comparing LoL and WoW. LoL has no exclusive content because the MOBA genre, unlike the MMORPG genre, does not involve exclusive content, period. Its not a design decision, its a genre limitation.

    2) This is not about his credibility as a speaker, its about whether or not you agree with what he is saying, and why.

    3) Yes, WOTLK was WoW's peak. However, no, that does not mean WOTLK was the best model, quite the opposite. It means WOTLK was when they stopped gaining subs and started loosing them instead. THATS what a "peak" means: its when you go from growing to decreasing.

    4) No, WoW did not retain a high number of subscribers with its last xpacks. What it did is open vast markets to give the illusion that it managed to retain subs. Look at it this way: if they still lost overall subs even after launching in the asian markets, it means there were more people during that period leaving WoW in NA and EU than there were people joining it in asia.

    5) A new difficulty, for many people, does not equate to new content. Pretending heroic difficulty is "unseen content" for someone having done LFR is akin to pretending Skyrim in Master is an "unseen game" for someone who played over 200 hours in Adept.

    6) No, you cannot just "ignore LFR" if you dont want to see content before the actual raids, because it was set up as a significant stepping stone towards being able to obtain the ilvl necessary to reach said raids, making them de-facto necessary for anyone wanting to get into normal modes.

    7) Yes, people want to be "special snowflakes", and no matter how derogative you think that is, its not. Its normal. These are social games, and the social aspects of it, including the desire and possiblity to somehow stand out from the crowd, are a big part of the appeal. If you want your achievements to be remarked as such, then it needs to be somewhat rare/exclusive, otherwise its not an achievement, its just... something you did. Without a social pyramid, there is no top to thrive for and reach.
    /cheers

    agreed on all 7 points

    (point 3 isnt quite that straightforward and open to discussion, but all the others r solid :P)

    I hope ur ready for the flaming u will get from the blinkered who feel Morenos observations are simply something which Wow needs to defend against... intelligent people will just engage in discussion.

  2. #562
    I don't understand why MMO-C even allows these threads. All these threads ever break down to is, "Blizzard, please design this game specifically for my play style and eject all the other players."

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    I would point out that morello was doing balance design and content creation, and had no control over the game's core philosophy, but instead I will simply point the irony in your post. You quoted my words, but you seem to have read them extremely selectively:
    So basically he has no idea if exclusive content works for a MMO or not since that wasn't his job. But somehow he's qualified to comment on it?

    Stop this childish ad hominem argument, will you? If you have no comment to make about his ideas and opinions, then you have nothing to bring to this conversation, it really is that simple.
    This whole thread is an appeal to authority. There are plenty of threads on this forum discussing the exclusive content topic without trotting out the name of a content designer to legitimize arguments.

    You want to use Morello as evidence to back your arguments. And I'm questioning whether he has the standing to contribute any more to the argument than the average forum poster.

    You want to present an expert witness, be prepared to have the credibility of your witness questioned.

  4. #564
    In this thread we can learn that many people know what an 'appeal to authority' fallacy is, by name, but don't actually know it's not a fallacy when it refers to an actual subject matter expert. Pay more attention in your 101 Logics classes. :P
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    In this thread we can learn that many people know what an 'appeal to authority' fallacy is, by name, but don't actually know it's not a fallacy when it refers to an actual subject matter expert. Pay more attention in your 101 Logics classes. :P
    That's the whole point. He's not a subject matter expert because everyone keeps telling me that LoL and WoW are completely different games and can't be compared. And even with his work on GW, his defenders trot out some weird excuse that he only designed content and didn't influence the philosophy of the game.

    Tell me, Anarchor, how is Morello a subject matter expert on exclusive MMO content when he's never been involved in any way in creating or implementing exclusive MMO content.

  6. #566
    He is a game designer. His opinion is valuable in regards of what might make games more fun or popular.

    If you had to pick between letting someone design your RPG game:
    a. Marine Biologist
    b. Lead Dev of one of the most popular games and e-sports in the world

    If it hadn't been for the fact that Ghostcrawler had some minor experience with game design through Age of Empires, Blizzard would've made themselves liable if they had hired him. It would've been ethically unsound to recruit a marine biologist over an experienced game designer for the job of ... game designer. But this reaches into business ethics and liability when the company loses profits or goes bankrupt and all that...

    Either way. Morello is a subject matter expert, and people might want to disagree with that, but ... the simple question you need to ask yourself is simply how much more chance he would have at being hired over everyone else, due to his job experience. The balancing issues and stat mechanics of LoL are definately very applicable to class and encounter design for WoW. Morello also knows a thing or two about creating competitive gameplay... and in that light, for an MMO with a focus on PvE content, you need exclusivity to have any meaningful competivity. People in LFR just laugh at the 'idiots' doing hardmodes to see the exact same content and get the exact same looking gear nowadays...
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by cityguy193 View Post
    He has worked on Guild Wars, which certainly had exclusive content.
    Where? Practically all of the "high-end" GW PvE content was the same missions over again, only harder.

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    He is a game designer. His opinion is valuable in regards of what might make games more fun or popular.

    If you had to pick between letting someone design your RPG game:
    a. Marine Biologist
    b. Lead Dev of one of the most popular games and e-sports in the world

    If it hadn't been for the fact that Ghostcrawler had some minor experience with game design through Age of Empires, Blizzard would've made themselves liable if they had hired him. It would've been ethically unsound to recruit a marine biologist over an experienced game designer for the job of ... game designer. But this reaches into business ethics and liability when the company loses profits or goes bankrupt and all that...

    Either way. Morello is a subject matter expert, and people might want to disagree with that, but ... the simple question you need to ask yourself is simply how much more chance he would have at being hired over everyone else, due to his job experience. The balancing issues and stat mechanics of LoL are definately very applicable to class and encounter design for WoW. Morello also knows a thing or two about creating competitive gameplay... and in that light, for an MMO with a focus on PvE content, you need exclusivity to have any meaningful competivity. People in LFR just laugh at the 'idiots' doing hardmodes to see the exact same content and get the exact same looking gear nowadays...
    Trying to make sense of this post.

    I asked what makes Morello a subject matter expert on exclusive PvE content and it looks like your answer is because he has experience class-balancing a large PvP game?

    I disagree, balancing a PvP MOBA game does not make Morello a subject matter expert on exclusive PvE content in a MMO.

    I did not ask if Morello was qualified to be a content designer in a MMO. Of course he's qualified, he worked on GW1 and GW2(which do not have exclusive PvE content!!!). I asked what made him a subject matter expert on exclusive PvE content. Having a better resume than a marine biologist doesn't make someone a subject matter expert.

  9. #569
    He explained that he thought an mmo with exclusive PvE content worked better than one with mostly inclusive content... he explained his vision on game design. He is a subject matter expert in game design.

    All you're pointing out is that he may not be a subject matter expert in -how- this exclusive PvE content should be designed, but that's not the topic at hand here. And even then, PvE content design is also part of game design still... and remember, he is a subject matter expert in game design. :P
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    He explained that he thought an mmo with exclusive PvE content worked better than one with mostly inclusive content... he explained his vision on game design. He is a subject matter expert in game design.

    All you're pointing out is that he may not be a subject matter expert in -how- this exclusive PvE content should be designed, but that's not the topic at hand here. And even then, PvE content design is also part of game design still... and remember, he is a subject matter expert in game design. :P
    brb, getting the devs of farmville and angry birds to offer their expert opinions on game design

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post
    brb, getting the devs of farmville and angry birds to offer their expert opinions on game design
    I'm sure they'd have some very valuable insights on good game design too. What makes you think they wouldn't?
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    He explained that he thought an mmo with exclusive PvE content worked better than one with mostly inclusive content... he explained his vision on game design. He is a subject matter expert in game design.

    All you're pointing out is that he may not be a subject matter expert in -how- this exclusive PvE content should be designed, but that's not the topic at hand here.
    Having a "vision" makes one a subject matter expert?

    He was involved in content design for GW and GW2. Neither game has exclusive PvE content. Both games were designed opposite to this vision of his.

    Hard to take a subject matter expert seriously when their actions are completely opposite their words.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    He explained that he thought an mmo with exclusive PvE content worked better than one with mostly inclusive content... he explained his vision on game design. He is a subject matter expert in game design.

    All you're pointing out is that he may not be a subject matter expert in -how- this exclusive PvE content should be designed, but that's not the topic at hand here. And even then, PvE content design is also part of game design still... and remember, he is a subject matter expert in game design. :P
    He (Morello) was also previously involved in the creation of Guild Wars 1, so it isn't like he's a newbie to the MMORPG field either. He was there from GW1 to the start of GW2 (internal start, not launch obviously).

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Having a "vision" makes one a subject matter expert?

    He was involved in content design for GW and GW2. Neither game has exclusive PvE content. Both games were designed opposite to this vision of his.

    Hard to take a subject matter expert seriously when their actions are completely opposite their words.
    So you must not take GC seriously either because he agrees with a lot of what Morello said.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-06-13 at 02:01 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I'm sure they'd have some very valuable insights on good game design too. What makes you think they wouldn't?
    brb, asking a guy who's been working on world of warcraft for years to offer his expert opinion on game design

  16. #576
    Or maybe he gained more insight and experience over the years in understanding what makes people enjoy different types of games. Either way. His opinion is very valuable and I'm certain other game designers might disagree with him... But, honestly. We're talking about the new Blizzard-Activision here. I don't think Blizzard designs their games with maximizing enjoyment in mind as much as they care about maximizing profits and reducing costs instead nowadays...
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  17. #577
    Who is a PvE exclusivity subject matter expert? Besides GC, who, you know, agrees with Morello.

    You can define who you're going to listen to so narrowly that only people who agree with you will meet that criteria, but its a problem with your reasoning not theirs.

  18. #578
    People just aren't being very courteous and respectful. It seems to stem more out of bad and unreasoned feelings that they prefer to discredit Morello's opinion.

    If he -had- been part of a game with a lot of exclusive content, people probably would've used that as example to say: "And that game didn't even have 1/10th of the subscribers WoW has today."

    So the fact that he didn't exactly have any experience with providing exclusive content games, makes his opinion all the more valuable...
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    People just aren't being very courteous and respectful. It seems to stem more out of bad and unreasoned feelings that they prefer to discredit Morello's opinion.

    If he -had- been part of a game with a lot of exclusive content, people probably would've used that as example to say: "And that game didn't even have 1/10th of the subscribers WoW has today."


    So the fact that he didn't exactly have any experience with providing exclusive content games, makes his opinion all the more valuable...


    I agree, people are just being arbitrary when choosing who they will or won't listen to. It would be better to just debate on the merits of the argument. All I ever see are attacks on Morello from people who disagree, but rarely such a well reasoned reply as what he started with.

  20. #580
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post
    brb, getting the devs of farmville and angry birds to offer their expert opinions on game design
    No, no, no an ex-marine biologist ex-age of empires designer (wow lead systems designer) and an (ex?)-lawyer (wow lead encounter designer) are much more qualified

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