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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    People just aren't being very courteous and respectful. It seems to stem more out of bad and unreasoned feelings that they prefer to discredit Morello's opinion.

    If he -had- been part of a game with a lot of exclusive content, people probably would've used that as example to say: "And that game didn't even have 1/10th of the subscribers WoW has today."

    So the fact that he didn't exactly have any experience with providing exclusive content games, makes his opinion all the more valuable...
    Nah, you don't actually have any interest or faith in Morello's credentials at all. That much became evident when you held up his earliest professional experience (Guild Wars) as a point in his favor while simultaneously trying to dismiss GC for not having been a game designer since middle school.

    This thread, like so many other threads on MMO-Champ, is just people trying to leverage the same gripes they've had since forever by hiding behind somebody else.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    So basically he has no idea if exclusive content works for a MMO or not since that wasn't his job. But somehow he's qualified to comment on it?



    This whole thread is an appeal to authority. There are plenty of threads on this forum discussing the exclusive content topic without trotting out the name of a content designer to legitimize arguments.

    You want to use Morello as evidence to back your arguments. And I'm questioning whether he has the standing to contribute any more to the argument than the average forum poster.

    You want to present an expert witness, be prepared to have the credibility of your witness questioned.
    You are strangely defensive and, Im afraid, dangerously close to being paranoid. Sadly, you seem to operate with the impression that this is somehow someone trying to back their arguments.

    Its not. The guy is known, he is popular, and he happens to work in development, so people are interested to know what he thinks. Thats it. You are the one making this a confrontation because somehow you feel attacked by his not agreeing with you. Are you so incapable of articulating a coherent argument refuting his post that the only thing you are capable of doing is attacking the man's curriculum?

    We get it, you think that no one but the WoW lead dev is qualified to comment on WoW developpement (because everyone else just dont do quite exactly the same thing or isnt as successful financially), and you refuse obstinatly to actually adress his points. Now that you have made this clear, I shall repeat myself:

    Stop this childish ad hominem argument, will you? If you have no comment to make about his ideas and opinions, then you have nothing to bring to this conversation, it really is that simple.
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2013-06-13 at 03:36 AM.

  3. #583
    You guys really need to quit arguing. Everyone knows there are only 2 people qualified enough to discuss exclusive content in WoW:

    1) Ghostcrawler (clearly with his degree, background, and years of experience in MMOs)
    2) Every single poster on MMO-Champs.

    Some random guy who is the lead content design for one of the most popular and profitable games out there has no clue wtf he is talking about. He really needs to spend some more time listening to us on MMO-Champs who have no degree or experience in the field before he posts any crap like that again. Brb I think my LFR group just killed Lei Shen while I was typing this and I gotta see if I got any loot.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    Its not. The guy is known, he is popular, and he happens to work in development, so people are interested to know what he thinks. Thats it. You are the one making this a confrontation because somehow you feel attacked by his not agreeing with you. Are you so incapable of articulating a coherent argument refuting his post that the only thing you are capable of doing is attacking the man's curriculum?
    Um, the man's not in this thread. How am I supposed to carry on a discussion with him?

    I refute his theory and then posters like you jump in and tell me I'm wrong because I'm not a class balancer for a MOBA?

    Do you want to discuss with me exclusive content? Can you discuss with me the advantages and disadvantages of exclusive content without an appeal to authority in the way of "but Morello agrees with me!!!"?

    We get it, you think that no one but the WoW lead dev is qualified to comment on WoW developpement (because everyone else just dont do quite exactly the same thing or isnt as successful financially), and you refuse obstinatly to actually adress his points. Now that you have made this clear, I shall repeat myself:
    First you create a strawman...

    Stop this childish ad hominem argument, will you? If you have no comment to make about his ideas and opinions, then you have nothing to bring to this conversation, it really is that simple.
    Then you accuse me of ad hominem...

    And all in a thread which is just an appeal to authority.

    It's like the logical fallacy grand slam.

  5. #585
    A developer for a MOBA game that makes you pay for contents/heroes should not comment on an exclusive content in a SUBSCRIPTION based mmo in which all players pay the same fee.

    Also, comparing lol hardcore gamers to Wow's? Really? A game of lol takes 1 hour. Raiding in wow takes 3 hours. More people are willing to play lol competitively since it takes 1 hour than those who are willing to do hardcore raiding in wow.

    All of his arguments are plain dumb.

  6. #586
    Very interesting.

  7. #587
    Bottom line is there is a reason why MOBA games are more popular than MMORPGs and on the rise. And the argument that not only Morello presented that LFR while short term a pleasing change can be harmful in the long term seem pretty legit.

    Here is the timeline.

    1. Between Normal->HC raiding and LFR raiding because of the time constraints players pick LFR.
    2. They raid it for a while and realise that it's effortless content with no challenge and the generic purples are not what they used to be thus they get bored fast.
    3. Now they can either go back to normal raiding with the downside of having to commit to a schedule just to reach harder content or they can stop playing altogether and move to other games where they don't have to make these compromises.

    Now LFR as a concept is not wrong. What is wrong is that there is no progression, by playing LFR you don't get anywhere.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoon View Post
    You guys really need to quit arguing. Everyone knows there are only 2 people qualified enough to discuss exclusive content in WoW:

    1) Ghostcrawler (clearly with his degree, background, and years of experience in MMOs)
    2) Every single poster on MMO-Champs.

    Some random guy who is the lead content design for one of the most popular and profitable games out there has no clue wtf he is talking about. He really needs to spend some more time listening to us on MMO-Champs who have no degree or experience in the field before he posts any crap like that again. Brb I think my LFR group just killed Lei Shen while I was typing this and I gotta see if I got any loot.
    ^this

    I'm tired of people, that argue in a way, that everyone needs a 5 Star Certificate and a Master Degree in <inser random topic here> to be granted to talk about something.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Bottom line is there is a reason why MOBA games are more popular than MMORPGs and on the rise. And the argument that not only Morello presented that LFR while short term a pleasing change can be harmful in the long term seem pretty legit.

    Here is the timeline.

    1. Between Normal->HC raiding and LFR raiding because of the time constraints players pick LFR.
    2. They raid it for a while and realise that it's effortless content with no challenge and the generic purples are not what they used to be thus they get bored fast.
    3. Now they can either go back to normal raiding with the downside of having to commit to a schedule just to reach harder content or they can stop playing altogether and move to other games where they don't have to make these compromises.

    Now LFR as a concept is not wrong. What is wrong is that there is no progression, by playing LFR you don't get anywhere.
    This is exactly what happened to me, so your analysis is correct in at least one case and probably many more

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Bottom line is there is a reason why MOBA games are more popular than MMORPGs and on the rise. And the argument that not only Morello presented that LFR while short term a pleasing change can be harmful in the long term seem pretty legit.

    Here is the timeline.

    1. Between Normal->HC raiding and LFR raiding because of the time constraints players pick LFR.
    2. They raid it for a while and realise that it's effortless content with no challenge and the generic purples are not what they used to be thus they get bored fast.
    3. Now they can either go back to normal raiding with the downside of having to commit to a schedule just to reach harder content or they can stop playing altogether and move to other games where they don't have to make these compromises.

    Now LFR as a concept is not wrong. What is wrong is that there is no progression, by playing LFR you don't get anywhere.
    And that's all fine, but making the end game content more exclusive wouldn't help. That's actually what they tried in the first half of Cataclysm, and it sent the game into a tailspin. The people who were excluded by the exclusivity reacted poorly and many walked away.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  11. #591
    So, I've specifically registered just to post in here. I've got to admit that I did not read every single post in this thread, so a lot (if not all) of what I want to write might have already been posted. Still, I feel that there are some points that need to be made.

    Let me preface this with a bit of stuff that (from what I've been reading) gets ignored a fair bit whenever WoW's "downfall" is concerned.

    The market for MMOs has been changing. There's quite a number of new MMOs that launch every year and we've seen a lot of games rise and fall, all sharing the same basic audience that WoW has been targeting for the better part of a decade now. Why do I consider this to be an important point, you might ask. Simple. Back when WoW was in its prime, the MMO market was lacking competitors. The fact that WoW had its most customers back when The Burning Crusade was around isn't exactly testimony to how great TBC was in comparison to what the game is like today, it's the result of a number of factors - competition being one of them.

    Being the biggest player in a market isn't exactly a taunting task if there's virtually no competition. With WoW's success, however, came the "impersonators". Back then, WoW had a fistful (literally) of semi-serious competitors - and now, there's more MMOs around than I can even remember the names of, including free to play ones. Even if we're assuming that the market for MMOs grew over the last few years, it would still be unreasonable to expect WoW to retain its peak number of players - or to grow further, even. Most of these MMOs that have been released in recent years have failed quite miserable, aside from some exceptions, though. However, due to their sheer number, they're bound to whittle WoW's player base down over time.

    This is a nonsense calculation, but I just want to illustrate a point:

    Total market for MMOs in '06: 15,000,000 players. WoW held 12,000,000 of those. The other three "big" MMOs held a million each, accounting for the remaining 3,000,000 of players.

    Today, there might be a total market of 20,000,000 MMO players. WoW is currently holding about 8,000,000 of those - and the dozen of noteworthy competitors still only manages a million each, but that does account for a grand total of 12,000,000 million now.

    Now, keep in mind that WoW is old. And when I say old, I mean ancient (in terms of video games, obviously). The fact that such an old game is doing as well as it does, despite a market that is being competed for more and more fiercely as time goes does show one thing: Blizzard does know damn well how to keep their biggest cash cow going. This is also why I do have to wonder why someone like Morello would be acting like the game isn't doing incredibly well. I seriously doubt Blizzard could do any better, given the current situation of both the market and the sheer age of the game (which, eventually, does allow competitors to finally catch up with WoW, somewhat).

    With that said, I would also have to wonder why Morello would consider exclusive content as such an important part of games. Sure, some players need a goal they can aspire to, a goal that takes dedication and a bit of struggle to achieve. And even some goals they can never achieve because they'll keep following a carrot even though they actually know they can never get it. However, that doesn't account for all players. Not by far. The last generation of consoles and Nintendo's success with the Wii should have taught people that much. Personally, I would've expected game designers especially to remember that discovery of the more "casual" player. The impact that that "discovery" had was huge, so huge that Nintendo's competitors are actually mimicking Nintendo's strategy to a certain extend. Even LoL does it, to a degree, given that you could call it a more casual-friendly version of Dota. And still, Morello acts as if it was a bad idea to cater to a more casual audience that wants (easily) achievable goals. Why is that, I wonder? Everyone who's been following games for a few years has seen for themselves just how big, important and full of money that bit of the market is - and he, while designing the (arguably) most casual of MOBA games, is advising against that trend?

    So, some folks will point out that he's a game designer and I am not, so I shouldn't be questioning his opinion, even though I'm basing mine on what I consider to be logic and common sense. To that, I'd answer that Blizzard also employs game designers - and they're evidently thinking that the more casual route without exclusive content is the way to go. So, I'm not just a commoner who's disagreeing with a game designer and out of my place due to that. I'm just picking a side, with both sides having their own game designers. My pick is based on what I consider to be the better decision, as far as the success of the game is concerned.

    Let me get back to WoW's audience, though. Most of those who played the game back when it launched will probably have moved on in their lives and might or might not have quit the game. Let's be honest, eight years is a good bit of time to alter a life, isn't it? Me... Well, I was still in school when I started playing WoW back in early 2005. Back then, classic WoW was okay for me. I didn't mind incredible time-sinks and the carrot on a stick that forced me to invest huge amounts of time into the game in order to get a wee bit closer to it. With no other hobbies, school that didn't require much time and no girlfriend to speak of, there was little else that might have taken up that spare time - especially since my male friends were playing WoW, too. And TBC was similar.

    Today, though, I wouldn't be playing vanilla WoW any more. And believe me, I tried playing vanilla not too long ago. With a full-time job and the wish to advance my career, body-building as my primary hobby and a girlfriend, I simply couldn't fit a game like vanilla WoW into my life - not without making some sacrifices I wouldn't be willing to make. Given that I am one of the people who do see both the carrot and the stick it's on, I wouldn't want to play. Knowing I'd never have a shot at what the game has to ever wouldn't make me keep playing, it would only remind me that it would be pointless to sink time into the game beyond leveling a character and maybe doing some five-man instances. Not exactly the sort of player retention Blizzard would want.

    As you can see by the direction WoW is heading in, I'd be part of Blizzard's new target audience. People who can't or don't want to sink the time into a game like vanilla WoW or TBC (call it "not being up to the challenge", for all I care, even though it is solely about the time someone invests into the game) and want to be able to eventually get that carrot dangling in front of their face. The latter part of that sentence, though... I have to admit that I have yet to get to personally know someone who wants to play a game because they know they can never achieve much. They might play it despite that, but is that something to design a game around? I don't think so.

    I have to apologise if the last few paragraphs come across like a "get a life" post. They're not meant to be. However, there's a distinct sort of people who fit the style of the current WoW who wouldn't fit the style of the old game. It's hard to tell which group is bigger, or what would've made the game more successful. However, from what I have seen on the gaming industry over the last few years indicates that Blizzards current approach is actually the one that is most likely to spawn a successful game.

    One more thing to consider, by the way: The reason why WoW became "The Big MMO" in the first place wasn't because it was hardcore or anything. It was because it opened the MMO genre to the mainstream gamer. It's keeping that trend up by opening itself up to the casual gamer now. As such, I'd like to point out that anyone who sought a "hardcore" game has been going with the wrong one by playing WoW from the get-go.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    And that's all fine, but making the end game content more exclusive wouldn't help. That's actually what they tried in the first half of Cataclysm, and it sent the game into a tailspin. The people who were excluded by the exclusivity reacted poorly and many walked away.
    I think it would help, it wouldn't be the correct solution, but it would help. If for example Blizz said that only way to get tier and epic gear is through normals+ ... it would be an incentive for ppl to stick around and gear with purples. Even better with 5.4 if you said that purple gear drops in flexible raids+ you would see ppl dropping LFR and together as a community making an effort to hunt that purple gear down. As it is ppl are in the letargic LFR is boring, but good enough for me mode, why bother with harder stuff ... and it illustrates the difference between what ppl want and what ppl need.

    Catas problem was that it was overall too difficult and some of the mechanic changes were just boring to execute. It's a bit different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roxkis View Post
    As you can see by the direction WoW is heading in, I'd be part of Blizzard's new target audience. People who can't or don't want to sink the time into a game like vanilla WoW or TBC (call it "not being up to the challenge", for all I care, even though it is solely about the time someone invests into the game) and want to be able to eventually get that carrot dangling in front of their face. The latter part of that sentence, though... I have to admit that I have yet to get to personally know someone who wants to play a game because they know they can never achieve much. They might play it despite that, but is that something to design a game around? I don't think so.
    Like I said the problem is content Blizz offers in WoW that is not time consuming is too easy and lacking worthy progression. MOBA games are not easy. They are actually quite brutal with ppl being harassed and destroyed in the game ... does it hurt them ? Sure, but being "too nice" as Blizz is hurts way more. Without challenge there is no satisfaction from succeeding.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Like I said the problem is content Blizz offers in WoW that is not time consuming is too easy and lacking worthy progression. MOBA games are not easy.
    A matter of perspective, really. LoL, the most popular MOBA around, is quite easy compared to Dota. And offers ways for players to enjoy themselves in even easier formats that are less focused on performing at the absolute cutting edge of skill. Like ARAM, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    They are actually quite brutal with ppl being harassed and destroyed in the game ... does it hurt them ? Sure, but being "too nice" as Blizz is hurts way more. Without challenge there is no satisfaction from succeeding.
    LoL is solely PvP based and even though the game is easy by comparison, that doesn't make being the best at it easy. If you wanted something similar in WoW, you'd have to get world firsts. Or at least sever firsts with your raid, or at least compete for it. Routinely.

    If you don't, then "too easy" seems far fetched.

  14. #594
    Now, keep in mind that WoW is old. And when I say old, I mean ancient (in terms of video games, obviously). The fact that such an old game is doing as well as it does, despite a market that is being competed for more and more fiercely as time goes does show one thing: Blizzard does know damn well how to keep their biggest cash cow going.
    I call it, be on the right time at the right place (like the old counterstrike)

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxkis View Post
    A matter of perspective, really. LoL, the most popular MOBA around, is quite easy compared to Dota. And offers ways for players to enjoy themselves in even easier formats that are less focused on performing at the absolute cutting edge of skill. Like ARAM, for example.

    LoL is solely PvP based and even though the game is easy by comparison, that doesn't make being the best at it easy. If you wanted something similar in WoW, you'd have to get world firsts. Or at least sever firsts with your raid, or at least compete for it. Routinely.

    If you don't, then "too easy" seems far fetched.
    LoL is quite easy, but even pros can't master it. Useless argument for normal players really. The important difference is however that you can progress towards Diamond 1 in LoL by casually playing 1-2 games every night ... you will probably never get there, but you can work towards it never the less. In WoW the casual content you can jump in when you have time is LFR that is void of challenge or progression and that's the best you get from the most popular MMO on western market.

    I am not really surprised that Titan got send back to drawing board ... pretty sure Blizz is more than aware how the market and playerbase is shifting.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    I call it, be on the right time at the right place (like the old counterstrike)
    Sure, that's a big part of it. WoW wouldn't be where it currently is at if it launched with today competition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    LoL is quite easy, but even pros can't master it. Useless argument for normal players really. The important difference is however that you can progress towards Diamond 1 in LoL by casually playing 1-2 games every night ... you will probably never get there, but you can work towards it never the less. In WoW the casual content you can jump in when you have time is LFR that is void of challenge or progression and that's the best you get from the most popular MMO on western market.
    Thing is, in WoW, difficulty decreases with better gear. Gear improves the more time you invest. As such, you could make WoW "harder" by increasing the time sinks - which, then, negates the "jump in - jump out" capabilities a modern game needs to have. It should be obvious, by now, that PvE in WoW (and other MMOs, for that matter) isn't really hard in terms of skill. So, what's the solution? Simple, use different difficulties for those who want to use them and easier ones for those who don't want to/can't invest the time. Either that, or make the game a skill check.

    However, if Blizzard made WoW a skill check, I can assure you that a lot of players would instantly quit. Including hardcore raiders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    I am not really surprised that Titan got send back to drawing board ... pretty sure Blizz is more than aware how the market and playerbase is shifting.
    Oh, is it? Last time I checked, LoL was the best example of the market actually favouring the WoW approach of making stuff easier.

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxkis View Post
    Thing is, in WoW, difficulty decreases with better gear. Gear improves the more time you invest. As such, you could make WoW "harder" by increasing the time sinks - which, then, negates the "jump in - jump out" capabilities a modern game needs to have. It should be obvious, by now, that PvE in WoW (and other MMOs, for that matter) isn't really hard in terms of skill. So, what's the solution? Simple, use different difficulties for those who want to use them and easier ones for those who don't want to/can't invest the time. Either that, or make the game a skill check.

    However, if Blizzard made WoW a skill check, I can assure you that a lot of players would instantly quit. Including hardcore raiders.

    Oh, is it? Last time I checked, LoL was the best example of the market actually favouring the WoW approach of making stuff easier.
    Yeah, we operate with a lot of "if Blizz did this or that players would instantly quit" ... but players are already quitting. And do you really believe hardcore raiders are happy that they have to grind gear over and over on multiple alts to be allowed to play the hardest content ? From what I gathered hc players are giving up because beating hc content is not enough ... you have to beat it and then grind it for months to get ready for the next tier.

    We are circling back to the argument what players want vs what players need. Funnily enough Cata is example of Blizz doing what players wanted. Forums in WotLK were filled with bring back TBC, bring back CC in 5 mans and healing where you are mana starved. Blizz did what players wanted and it was absolute disaster.

    Also there are two different terms being mixed up here ... easy and simple. If something is simple, it does not mean it's easy to do. That's what LoL brought to the MOBA genre. Simple and pretty, but not easy.

    I agree that what WoW may need are different difficulty settings. But it does not have them. LFR has one difficulty, easy and with that difficulty it offers almost everything the harder difficulties with big down sides offer. Ppl suggest that LFR shouldn't offer epic gear to give more incentive to do higher difficulties and again we get to situation where what players want colides with what they may need. Because if you ask players they will tell you we want epicks from LFR or they will quit the game !!!

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Yeah, we operate with a lot of "if Blizz did this or that players would instantly quit" ... but players are already quitting. And do you really believe hardcore raiders are happy that they have to grind gear over and over on multiple alts to be allowed to play the hardest content ? From what I gathered hc players are giving up because beating hc content is not enough ... you have to beat it and then grind it for months to get ready for the next tier.

    We are circling back to the argument what players want vs what players need. Funnily enough Cata is example of Blizz doing what players wanted. Forums in WotLK were filled with bring back TBC, bring back CC in 5 mans and healing where you are mana starved. Blizz did what players wanted and it was absolute disaster.

    Also there are two different terms being mixed up here ... easy and simple. If something is simple, it does not mean it's easy to do. That's what LoL brought to the MOBA genre. Simple and pretty, but not easy.

    I agree that what WoW may need are different difficulty settings. But it does not have them. LFR has one difficulty, easy and with that difficulty it offers almost everything the harder difficulties with big down sides offer. Ppl suggest that LFR shouldn't offer epic gear to give more incentive to do higher difficulties and again we get to situation where what players want colides with what they may need. Because if you ask players they will tell you we want epicks from LFR or they will quit the game !!!
    The whole "what players want" and "what players need" thing doesn't really apply if they do quit if they don't get what they want, though. After all, we are talking about stuff they want that is making them quit. What would you replace LFR with if it indeed is what's needed to keep a majority of players in the game? Just because people want access to easy gear doesn't mean it's not what the game needs.

    Also, so what if the harder difficulties have "downsides"? I've said it before, but if people are only doing raids for the loot not because of the experience of actually raiding (which would entail such "downsides") then raiding is a flawed concept in and off itself. And, well, it kinda is. It's hard to justify why people should make such commitments to a game.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxkis View Post
    The whole "what players want" and "what players need" thing doesn't really apply if they do quit if they don't get what they want, though. After all, we are talking about stuff they want that is making them quit. What would you replace LFR with if it indeed is what's needed to keep a majority of players in the game? Just because people want access to easy gear doesn't mean it's not what the game needs.

    Also, so what if the harder difficulties have "downsides"? I've said it before, but if people are only doing raids for the loot not because of the experience of actually raiding (which would entail such "downsides") then raiding is a flawed concept in and off itself. And, well, it kinda is. It's hard to justify why people should make such commitments to a game.
    But that is not something you can base on what players say ... It has been 30-40 years since we realized ppl telling what they want means nothing. Ppl don't know what they want. You give them something and they can say we like it/we don't like it. That's as far as their credibility goes if that. Now if majority of playerbase likes LFR, raids it for months in awe and Blizz has the tools to verify that then it's all good. If however that is not the case Blizz can't make changes based of what ppl tell them to do, what a few forum posters will tell them they will quit over.

    So I think the want vs need does apply here and the Morello post is true in that regard though it's just common knowledge. As for the rest I think it's more about room for progress than about exclusivity, but what do I know

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  20. #600
    Dreadlord
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    I struggle to understand what the problem is. His opinion is perfectly warranted, if not absolutely true. Just remember what the genre was like before WoW, and what WoW itself was like before its drop and you'll understand why.

    Just because he's not working on an MMO doesn't mean his points aren't valid, as evidenced by the fact that Ghostcrawler agrees with many of his points. Plus, he's working on something that, other than gameplay-wise, has a very similar history to WoW.

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