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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Thats not true.

    The most inclusive content is MoP.

    Wrath was the first expac to change to a concept of inclusion but it still held the 'inclusion bar' pretty high. Hence why so few people got into Naxx.

    It was at the end of Wrath when the philosophy changed... and strangely enough it was at this point that the subs have been in decline... says it all really.
    Except it doesn't. I could EASILY say that people wanted to kill the Lich King and did and that was it for them and then subs dropped. Noone possibly outside of Blizzard knows the true meaning why subs dropped. It could be what you said, it could be what I said, it could be because the game is older, could be because people got older and have no time, it could a number of things. In the end there is no ONE thing, no one HUGE thing that cause subs to drop. Subs dropping at the end of Lich King says nothing cause noone know exactly what that thing is.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Except LoL is a more profitable and more played game than WoW... so it does deserves some kind of acknowledgement. If anything this thread shows that many of the more eloquent and thoughtful or dedicated players agree with his opinion.
    More played? Probably, since its free. More profitable? No way in hell. You could easily say WoW is the most profitable video game EVER.

  3. #83
    That is MUCH different than raiding in MMORPGs......
    Yes I think. Lol has only 4 maps and 30 levels to "learn" the game, so the difference between players are the league that they play. That is the most important thing in LOL (end-game), and with that in mind, Challenger is like the final boss of WoW.

    Except he has no clue what the market for the most popular and lucrative MMO on the planet needs. He has never, ever, ever worked with a game of that scope.

    Guess what? You take someone with a much smaller scope than is necessary and plop them in the middle of this Goliath of a game, you will see a dip in quality. Period. It happens all the time in video game development, albeit to a different degree of success. Check any studio which sees massive success of one of their titles over the others. Designers, engineers, and others involved in the process will either need to scale appropriately in talent and scope or they will be forced to replace their team with people more apt for the job
    Agree with you. But If i'm going to choose between wows player-base vs Morellos in game-sales, without doubt I will choose Morello.
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-06-07 at 08:52 PM.

  4. #84
    Bloodsail Admiral Ghâzh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    But the reality is that the progress was blocked in vanilla and TBC by the unrelenting progress train without catchup mechanisms. If you started vanilla year late the fact is you'd never see any raids past MC and first few bosses of BWL. All guilds capable of breaching that barrier had done so already, and those who couldn't, were stuck. And as a player in a MC guild there was no way up. Exactly same happened in TBC. Once you had completed TK and later BT attunements the players who weren't attuned were essentially worthless to you, end result being players who joined TBC year after release were stuck doing Karazhan and nothing but Karazhan without any progress path, and those players who started on day one were doing Black Temple and later Sunwell. The amount of guilds in the middle was close to zero.

    No amount of hard work you do will help when the ladders end up halfway between floors and you can't climb higher. That was the biggest failure of exclusive raid content of early WoW.
    Yes and it was also one of the best sides of exclusive content of early WoW. When you were stuck on doing Karazhan and the rest of the early content it also made you crave so much more to climb up on the ladder. It made you look up to those who were better than you and made you wanna be like them.

    And it's not like it was impossible to progress back then even though you were behind the cutting edge guilds. Nothing stopped you from gathering 24 others who weren't as far in the game and start with Gruul and move on to SSC/TK and so forth. I know because that just what I did. When our guild started with SSC and TK the best guilds were already killing first bosses in Black Temple. We made swift progress and finished both instances and it felt so rewarding. Didn't work out so well for the guild after that but I was able to move on to BT guild and boy did that make me feel good.
    Last edited by Ghâzh; 2013-06-07 at 08:51 PM.

  5. #85
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    I actually do have to agree with him. Yes, the majority of the WoW community didn't have the time to invest to be able to progress in high-end raiding and so they cried for an easier way to access it, but that's just the thing, they weren't the intended audience, even tho they make up the majority of the community. But that's the nature of high-end...anything really. Part of the allure is the exclusivity, and knowing that the extra time your investing is really getting you something more out of the game. In a sense, you had to earn your right to raid, and that made sense.

    There should be something significant to gain from playing the game more and better than your average player. Previously, the reward was somewhat exclusive content, gear, and prestige among other things. That's what separated the raiders from the average players. And although, to some extent, that still exists, it has been so diluted that being a "raider" has begun to be far less lucrative than just playing casually. The time invested vs reward ratio has swayed heavily in favor of the casual player, when it should really remain a constant at any level of play. The added time investment, just really isn't worth it as much anymore. I, personally, still find raiding worthwhile, but it, no doubt, has lost a significant amount of its luster compared to the days when I was raiding in Vanilla WoW.

  6. #86
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    http://i.imgur.com/2tSkfWX.png

    Agree/Disagree? Share your thoughts.
    Very bright guy, it's people like him that made LoL so big. Riot thinks, Blizzard votes.

    Btw the contrast between reds and blues is poking my eyes out, blues are always so filtered and PR'd while Riot really listens and is not afraid to step on toes.

  7. #87
    Bloodsail Admiral jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    So there are new heros and maps that Riot has to develop separately for Challenger tier?
    Technically speaking there was a 1v1 map that only tournament-level players got the opportunity to experience. And all balance issues are looked at from a top-tier competitive perspective.

    On-topic though, I agree with him 100%

  8. #88
    I guess about 8 million people disagree with him. It's easy to stand at the side and comment on things, but he's just like anybody else and he has no idea what is good or bad for WoW. Seeing how well WoW is still doing, 4,5 years after TBC ended, Blizzard must have done something right. Too bad for that minority that wants exclusive content, this is not the game to get it in. Go play EVE or something.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    Not one single thing he said justifies excluding players from content. We have heroic mode raids now so that is for the raiders who enjoy a challenge and exclusivity. Players running easier modes of raids doesn't hurt anyone in any way whatsoever. You people seriously need to just mind your own business.

    Also something you people refuse to consider is the fact that since Blizzard introduced LFR the ["dirty casuals" have stopped demanding nerfs. What few players who do still demand nerfs generally get laughed out of the forums by everyone including the casuals who have their easy mode now.
    The bolded and underline part is COMPLETELY UNTRUE. Casual players have been whining almost since MoP came out that they want normals nerfed, or some other middle ground raid.


    What entitlement? Again players have stopped demanding nerfs to normal modes because they now have LFR which means Blizzard isn't nearly as likely to nerf normal/heroic modes like they did in previous expansions. I know you people love to hate LFR and that casuals have "your" gear but because of that you get to keep your challenging content challenging.
    Just look at the game man. Are you playing the same game as everyone else? The greatness of wow was the exclusivity of its end game raid content. Shape it any way you want, but you have to admit, it was cool seeing other players with exclusive gear and cosmetic rewards and then setting goals to get there yourself. Its not like that anymore.

    If driving Wow downward means driving the wannabe hardcores out of the game I'm all for it.
    Be careful what you say.. us "hardcores" set the foundation for the game with all its greatness and glory when it was first released. You are playing a shell of the former game.
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  10. #90
    Bloodsail Admiral Rivyr's Avatar
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    I would have to agree with him, when I played in BC feeling that BT was unobtainable due to how difficult it was at the time to clear out TK made it feel like the game would never end and it gave me a goal to achive. Now in mop I have no goals other than reaching the minimum Ilvl so I can be fed content through an IV in LFR then go repeat it all on varrying difficulties.

  11. #91
    I think theres an obvious problem with him comparing raiding (PvE content) to LoL (PvP content), its not a propper comparison.

    I think if you seat down and see how Blizzard has balance PvP you would see how it very similar to how most PvP games are handled, not counting the fact that WoW is far more complex to balance than most PvP only games.

    Lastly, my greatest problem with BC (what he calls the sweet spot) was that you could in fact be just "wrong". Let me set some examples:

    - Shaman melee dps for heroic dungeon? Wrong, no cc.
    - Palading main raid tank? Wrong, thats for warriors only.
    - Druid single target healer? Wrong, thats for paladins.
    - Elemental raid top dps? Wrong, you just stand there, buff the mage and cast heroism.

    That was the issue with the old design. Everything was fine until you decided that you wanted to do something other than what you were meant to do.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivyr View Post
    I would have to agree with him, when I played in BC feeling that BT was unobtainable due to how difficult it was at the time to clear out TK made it feel like the game would never end and it gave me a goal to achive. Now in mop I have no goals other than reaching the minimum Ilvl so I can be fed content through an IV in LFR then go repeat it all on varrying difficulties.
    How many kills on Ra-den do you have so far? How many times did you kill Sinestra when she was current content?

    How about Brawler guild? How far into it are you?

    Tell me, do you transmog all of your new gear to your Challenge mode set? If not, why not?

    No, no don't wanna be a hipster but a big star
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    I had been reading WoW forums ever since the game came out, i never remember no matter how hard i try someone saying "I pay, i wanna see Naxx and Sunwell too!" , forums were filled with random stuff that no one cares about, 95% of them lore and next raid speculations.

    Then Arena appeared and the forums got filled with QQ, somewhere after season 2 were every Retri was crying "I wanna do Warrior dmg", every caster was crying "I wanna do warlock dmg!" and every healer was crying "I wanna do Lifebloom healing!", but never any post about "I wanna raid too!".
    This is actually very true. I was scrolling back on the general discussion here to posts from 2007 (they are all still on here) and there is such little PvE whine compared to now. The biggest drama topic that kept coming up then was "PvE vs PvP!!!!!" which was the result of the addition of arenas and all that. There are very few whines like "I play 4 hours a week and want to do Black Temple" and the nonsense like that which players expect these days. After a while a lot of 3/4 5/6 guilds wanted attunements removed, but nothing remotely like how the game is now.

    edit: this one's hilarious though http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rvers-petition . I think that went away for a bit during WotlK but it's back now.
    Last edited by laserguns; 2013-06-07 at 09:08 PM.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theendgamelv3 View Post
    Except it doesn't. I could EASILY say that people wanted to kill the Lich King and did and that was it for them and then subs dropped. Noone possibly outside of Blizzard knows the true meaning why subs dropped. It could be what you said, it could be what I said, it could be because the game is older, could be because people got older and have no time, it could a number of things. In the end there is no ONE thing, no one HUGE thing that cause subs to drop. Subs dropping at the end of Lich King says nothing cause noone know exactly what that thing is.
    We will all make our own assessments from our own personal experiences with Wow over that time period. And make our own judgments based on players we know who left and their reasons for unsubbing.

    My experience is that the vast majority of players that i saw leave in that time was generally to do with the change in direction of the game overall. Sure, some gave mroe specific reasons but this statement covers why they left.

    Therefore, i can make an educated assessment of why the subs have been in decline since Wrath. And its due to a direction change in overall game-design.

    What proof do u have that players r leaving because theyve killed LK and now think the games over?

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    We will all make our own assessments from our own personal experiences with Wow over that time period. And make our own judgments based on players we know who left and their reasons for unsubbing.

    My experience is that the vast majority of players that i saw leave in that time was generally to do with the change in direction of the game overall. Sure, some gave mroe specific reasons but this statement covers why they left.

    Therefore, i can make an educated assessment of why the subs have been in decline since Wrath. And its due to a direction change in overall game-design.

    What proof do u have that players r leaving because theyve killed LK and now think the games over?
    It was a example, but proof I have is people on MMO champion who have said that. However I believe people leave the game not because of one single thing or one HUGE single thing and it is silly to think that there is one thing. My actual opinion is that a NUMBER of things cause subs to drop. People hate the content, people hate the difficulty, people are getting older, people don't have time, people don't have money, people killed the lich king, etc. THESE are why I think subs are dropping. These are things I have seen people say on here, irl, etc say why they left. Not just one thing or one huge thing and the rest are tiny stuff, but a combination of things.
    Last edited by Theendgamelv3; 2013-06-07 at 09:11 PM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Drudatz View Post
    It was blizzard who said after vanilla "great we have 10mil players BUT only 0.01% went inside nax and we have to change that"
    and I totally agree with them and if you had a brain you would too - whats the point of game content if you block someone
    from seeing it just because a person like you have to feel like a binary special snowflake?
    Becous casuals like you what dont give single *** about wow are reson why this game dieing. You cry for easier content and blizzard listen you. Bigest mistake in history of wow.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Theendgamelv3 View Post
    So everyone and their mom has Reins of the Heavenly Crimson Cloud Serpent? Everyone and their mom has killed Ra-Den? Everyone and their mom has Reins of the Armored Skyscreamer? They are exclusive content for raiders for this expansion. What about realm first achievements? People are complaining about how hard normals are at the moment, so you can argue how exclusive heroic mode raiding is for ToT.
    Let's be honest. What they really want is the base level of the game to be what heroic raiding is so that it completely forces people out of the game entirely (because, bear in mind, they don't want those player sin PVP either).

    So once people who aren't allegedly hardcore raiders are gone, they can have content made directly for them. But of course, this means that the sub rate would dip to untenable levels and would force WoW into a F2P model which would then put it in direct competition with other MMOs of that caliber.

    Talk about a shell of a game. If it were up to these so-called hardcore players (none of which I really put much stock into here on MMO-C), WoW would die a miserable and shameful death before it ever catered to people of different skill levels.

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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    When you were stuck on doing Karazhan and the rest of the early content it also made you crave so much more to climb up on the ladder. It made you look up to those who were better than you and made you wanna be like them.
    It made most people hate their life and quit the game due to the lack of content, I was at that point in the end of vanilla and would've quitted without the promise of gear reset coming with TBC. Forums are full of people totally detached from reality who think there's hero worship left and right among the 8M random subscribers who wants to be in Nihilum, but the reality is that nine out of ten of those 8M randoms can not name even one guild from top10 list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    And it's not like it was impossible to progress back then even though you were behind the cutting edge guilds. Nothing stopped you from gathering 24 others who weren't as far in the game and start with Gruul and move on to SSC/TK and so forth. I know because that just what I did.
    Unless one of those 25 people was a competent organizer of things or somebody who had previous experience of raiding and/or raid leading that wouldn't happen. Guilds do not come out of nowhere, those come out from the ruins of other guilds mostly. I can guarantee you 25 totally random people who start WoW today for the first time in their lives has pretty close to zero chance of finishing normal mode ToT before next expansion is out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghâzh View Post
    When our guild started with SSC and TK the best guilds were already killing first bosses in Black Temple. We made swift progress and finished both instances and it felt so rewarding.
    Kinda proves my point. Considering how broken and overtuned Kael and Vashj were, what you had was probably 20 people who had raided before during vanilla and knew already wtf they were doing.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    From someone that plays both LoL and WoW: I respect his opinion and I think they've done a good job with their game but his opinion on WoW raiding is no more valuable than anyone else. Plus, imo he's wrong but there's no point arguing in bash threads.
    His opinion is much more valuable than anyone else. He have huge experience with game desing so dont tell me that your opinion have same value then his.

  20. #100
    Stood in the Fire Mcaffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    I don't know Scott's career, but this whole thread is based on "here's a designer for a popular game and here's what he thinks about Blizzard's design for WoW". Except he's commenting on the one element in WoW that's completely missing in LoL.

    I mean his view is that Blizzard would have had more success if they had kept Raiding more exclusive like it was in TBC, right? What is this based off of? Certainly not his work with LoL which doesn't have exclusive PvE content.

    Hey, maybe the guy who designs engines is also great as designing the auto navi/computer systems. But unless you can show me when he's designed a great navi/computer system in the past, I'm not sure why I would give that much weight to his views on what the navi/computers designers should have done.
    Thing is that he is not the only game designer saying these things, if you watched some of the stuff coming from the Wildstar devs (some old WoW devs) they are saying similar things. Morello isn't the first to say this nor are we the first players to talk about this.
    I just wish Blizz would be willing to talk about this with the community at large not just the top 5 and not give the same formulated responses that we as a community get.
    And they are formulated they come from a standard company playbook just tailored for WoW, hell my own company uses it for our clients when needed so I now when they try and evade rather then giving a proper answer, where is the Blizz from back in the day when they talked to us rather they point and say look shiny....

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