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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Why do we care about a LoL dev talking about WoW?

    It's like if I cared what a CoD dev said about Neverwinter. Who the hell cares.
    Probably because his job is to craft good games foremost not just a good MOBA or good MMO. Insight of this kind crosses genres, ignoring it because he isn't working on a MMO is just a weird ad hominem. If an intelligent articulate person makes a good point, its probably best to listen and address the point on its merits if you disagree rather than pulling out some kind of glorified non sequitor to (not) rebut it.

    If Richard Garriott or John Carmack made the same points they would still be worth listening to. I mean if any other MMO game dev came in and criticized wow like this, I imagine the responses would be "Lol, look at your mmo numbers" (not, "oh this is a mmo designer, let us stop and take note"). The point being that you can find any grounds to dismiss someone's argument if that's what you're looking to do. Try engaging it instead.
    Last edited by Sniperpally; 2013-06-07 at 10:02 PM.

  2. #122
    Herald of the Titans inboundpaper's Avatar
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    I could see why he thinks that, but that doesn't mean I agree.
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  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Althalus View Post
    Thing is that he is not the only game designer saying these things, if you watched some of the stuff coming from the Wildstar devs (some old WoW devs) they are saying similar things.
    Reminds me of when both SWTOR and Rift devs came out and flatly stated that they didn't include a matchmaking LFG system in their games because it was bad for the community. You know, the same arguments some people in this forum make all the time. Big talk from 2 developers who had never made a MMO. So what happened? The populations of their games plummeted and both games were forced to rush out a LFD-like system to slow the bleeding. For SWTOR it was too late as most of their servers had cratered. It helped stablize pops for Rift for a little while.

    Common theme. Game developer with no experience in MMOs criticize WoW for doing something wrong. Then game developer discovers that when they tried to do something different from WoW it blew up in their face and ended up copying the same WoW mechanic they criticized before...

    So is Wildstar going to have super exclusive PvE content exclusive to the top 1%? I'm looking forward to seeing how that works out for them.

  4. #124
    How can a LoL "developer" be considered as one? LoL is a perfect copy of DotA without some things, they added next to nothing, how can be anything considered contents in that game? Moreover,how can a moba "content developer" talk about mmo contents?^^

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    I think theres an obvious problem with him comparing raiding (PvE content) to LoL (PvP content), its not a propper comparison.

    I think if you seat down and see how Blizzard has balance PvP you would see how it very similar to how most PvP games are handled, not counting the fact that WoW is far more complex to balance than most PvP only games.

    Lastly, my greatest problem with BC (what he calls the sweet spot) was that you could in fact be just "wrong". Let me set some examples:

    - Shaman melee dps for heroic dungeon? Wrong, no cc.
    - Palading main raid tank? Wrong, thats for warriors only.
    - Druid single target healer? Wrong, thats for paladins.
    - Elemental raid top dps? Wrong, you just stand there, buff the mage and cast heroism.

    That was the issue with the old design. Everything was fine until you decided that you wanted to do something other than what you were meant to do.
    It is call class variety. You want single target heal pick paladin. You want strong aoe heal get shaman or druid. every role had specific skills your class feel uniq and cool.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    It is call class variety. You want single target heal pick paladin. You want strong aoe heal get shaman or druid. every role had specific skills your class feel uniq and cool.
    Alternatively, you feel gimped and annoyed when you have to level and gear (through a pretty grindy non-catch-up system) a character of a class you might not like just because you want to main tank or do tank heals.

    It works both ways, buddy.
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  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Reminds me of when both SWTOR and Rift devs came out and flatly stated that they didn't include a matchmaking LFG system in their games because it was bad for the community. You know, the same arguments some people in this forum make all the time. Big talk from 2 developers who had never made a MMO. So what happened? The populations of their games plummeted and both games were forced to rush out a LFD-like system to slow the bleeding. For SWTOR it was too late as most of their servers had cratered. It helped stablize pops for Rift for a little while.

    Common theme. Game developer with no experience in MMOs criticize WoW for doing something wrong. Then game developer discovers that when they tried to do something different from WoW it blew up in their face and ended up copying the same WoW mechanic they criticized before...

    So is Wildstar going to have super exclusive PvE content exclusive to the top 1%? I'm looking forward to seeing how that works out for them.
    Both Rift and SWTOR had other problems that caused it not to be as successful as WoW, which by your logic, if LFD was the culprit adding it in would have fixed things, but it didn't so...

    SWTOR was especially already practically a single player game so a LFD feature just makes sense since they've already committed to a complete lack of server community with their totally instanced content and single player plot lines. Rift just failed to do anything except perhaps character building better than WoW, probably because they didn't have the years of iteration that WoW had behind it. In both cases, they weren't wrong about LFD, they just compromised on so many other fronts, that it didn't make sense for them to hold out on LFD. They were so far down the instant gratification rabbit hole with their other design choices of course their player base was going to demand a LFD feature. Their problem was they decided to hold out on a feature for all the wrong reasons and against the consistency of the rest of the game.

    I agree on one point, that things like LFD primarily serve to "slow the bleeding" which is what happened here and also in WoW. Basically its symptomatic of the game already being on the decline. Which I think you can interpret most of blizzard's game design decisions through this lense. They've already given up on crafting an amazing game, they're simply trying to introduce features to slow the loss in revinue through smoke and mirrors and advertising gimmicks. Riot however still believes they can make an amazing game and is sticking to that, rather than simply cashing in on every quick way to make a buck.

    I mean does anyone truly believe that flex raiding is going to be the feature that heralds the golden age of wow? We all know WoW is past its prime and no amount of "features" are going to return it to the position of prominence it had in the minds of gamers during the classic/tbc era. Yes, gaming has evolved since then, so its not like just returning to a pure classic experience would likewise return us to the golden age. But lets be honest, Blizzard is not even trying. All these introductions to the game are primarily selling points to slow the loss of revenue, not the honest attempt to craft the best game possible. It may even be a part of their official strategy to milk wow and then transition to the next game of its kind that does try to make a coherent enjoyable product (titan or whatever).
    Last edited by Sniperpally; 2013-06-07 at 10:18 PM.

  8. #128
    Dudes...

    TBC was the sweetspot simply, cause of the Arena, creating an esport and competition(temporary). I remember even humble random bgs much more active and enjoyable, too.

    It has nothing to do with the raiding here. There was Black Temple and especially Sunwell for the hardcore raiders and even the most casual endgame player could visit Kara 10 mann and have some joy.

    It was simple, it was less about farming lfrs and lfd, cause they did not exist, there was hard content, but most of the time you did only see it with dedication to a raiding guild and most importantly the Arena provided the first and last most innovative gameplay PvP players ever faced in wow history up to date. AFTER it nothing gamebreaking was ever released.....NOTHING at all, certainly do not count machines and rbgs.

    So, TBC is most easily the sweetspot, doesn't take rocket science here to figure this out.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2013-06-07 at 10:20 PM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Alternatively, you feel gimped and annoyed when you have to level and gear (through a pretty grindy non-catch-up system) a character of a class you might not like just because you want to main tank or do tank heals.

    It works both ways, buddy.
    Or just use you internet and learn something about your class then pick your role ? Too hard for todays kids?

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Sniperpally View Post
    Probably because his job is to craft good games foremost not just a good MOBA or good MMO. Insight of this kind crosses genres, ignoring it because he isn't working on a MMO is just a weird ad hominem.
    No, insight like "exclusive raiding is good for the game" doesn't cross genres. Mainly because most genres do not even have exclusive raiding content!

    There is nothing at all exclusive in LoL and it was designed that way! Being good at it doesn't give you access to special heroes or maps. It doesn't spawn special power-ups that only you the hardcore can use. LoL is designed completely opposite of the "exclusive content for the 1%" model.

    So he's the developer of a game that makes all content accessible to anyone, but he's criticizing WoW for making their content too accessible.

    As for Richard Garriott, he developed one of the biggest bombs in MMO history. When your name is so closely associated with a disaster, people don't tend to take your expert opinion very seriously.

  11. #131
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    Vanilla and BC were grindy, boring shitfests, and calling the nightmare of attunements in BC a 'sweet spot' sounds like a great way to shoot the MMO genre in the head these days.

  12. #132
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    Well, really it's perfectly obvious that any attempts to compare LOL and WoW are comparing apples and oranges. The games couldn't really be more different in that respect. Financial models as well which is really what drives design decisions. Like I said earlier, Morello has some interesting things to say and as a top designer at a top game his opinion has value. But whether or not his opinion can be seriously applied to WoW in a practical way is another thing altogether.
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  13. #133
    It's a very reasonable and smart answer, but it's also an incredibly game developer-y one.
    I think the sentence "the exclusivity of content creates a psychological trick in your brain that makes the game feel endless" reflects the perspective he's coming at this from. Exclusivity of content is a trick. It creates a certain feel. Game design, and most other creative practices, are all about employing these sorts of tricks to put your audience in a particular frame of mind, but they aren't ultimately the meat of your game, especially not once people start to see through them.

    I also feel like he's probably not familiar with the amount of development time vs. the amount of players who actually experienced that exclusive end game content. Or, if he is, he's saying that the "feel" of exclusivity trumps actual gameplay, which I don't think many people would consider a particularly compelling argument.

    It's also important to note that he's not being critical of the design of WoW from an objective standpoint, he's merely saying his own personal values differ. Interesting post, though, and it just goes to reflect how not all developers weigh the same aspects of game design equally.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    I remember even humble random bgs much more active and enjoyable, too.
    Battlegrounds were more active because you could farm them to get gear superior to heroic 5-man gear in half the time, 1/4 the effort, and with about fifty times less abuse from the LFG channel for looking for Heroics without tier gear.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    No, insight like "exclusive raiding is good for the game" doesn't cross genres. Mainly because most genres do not even have exclusive raiding content!

    There is nothing at all exclusive in LoL and it was designed that way! Being good at it doesn't give you access to special heroes or maps. It doesn't spawn special power-ups that only you the hardcore can use. LoL is designed completely opposite of the "exclusive content for the 1%" model.

    So he's the developer of a game that makes all content accessible to anyone, but he's criticizing WoW for making their content too accessible.

    As for Richard Garriott, he developed one of the biggest bombs in MMO history. When your name is so closely associated with a disaster, people don't tend to take your expert opinion very seriously.
    My point is it doesn't matter that his game doesn't have exclusive raiding content and blizzard's does. You are moving from MOBA: has no exclusive content to MOBA designer: cannot comment on good game design as it pertains to exlusive content. Which is just a non sequitor. Same thing with Richard Garriott. Hitler could have made Morello's post and it would still be accurate. Until you demonstrate why it isn't on its merits and not based on who's saying it, you haven't made a cogent argument or anything that can even be responded to besides pointing out your fallacious reasoning.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    Or just use you internet and learn something about your class then pick your role ? Too hard for todays kids?
    What if the guy doesn't like playing another class? I know some people will play classes they don't like just to top the charts. That's fine. But most people in that situation will just shrug, say "guess the game is not for me" and drop out. I have personally met a lot more people who did that instead of leveling a Warrior if they wanted to tank but their Druid or their Paladin couldn't do it.

    Burning Crusade is considered the "sweet spot" because of a few factors: nostalgia is one of them. The game still being fairly new is another. World of Warcraft was, even back then, known as a game where the people who played it and left were vociferous about what they didn't like about it. It was bleeding subscriptions as always, because it was not very well designed balance or gameplay-wise. But there were a lot of people who had never played it subscribing to balance the numbers and result in a net gain. Now there are fewer people subbing, and so the playerbase drops.

    Player attrition is a natural thing in games. Don't assume World of Warcraft's "decline" is simply because people are unsubbing in droves. It's also because there are fewer people subscribing because the game has both more competition and less people who have not been already exposed to it to sign up again. You can't run a game on veterans, no matter how hard CCP Games tries to say with EVE Online, you need new blood to grow and the MMO market as a whole is declining.
    It's very comforting to know that regardless of gender, ethnicity, religion, profession, hobby or favorite dessert, every single human in the universe is still an individual with the potential to be a horrible person.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Sniperpally View Post
    My point is it doesn't matter that his game doesn't have exclusive raiding content and blizzard's does. You are moving from MOBA: has no exclusive content to MOBA designer: cannot comment on good game design as it pertains to exlusive content. Which is just a non sequitor. Same thing with Richard Garriott. Hitler could have made Morello's post and it would still be accurate. Until you demonstrate why it isn't on its merits and not based on who's saying it, you haven't made a cogent argument or anything that can even be responded to besides pointing out your fallacious reasoning.
    What? He says that exclusive content is good game design. He is the lead content designer for a game without any exclusive content.

    How is pointing out his actions being different from his words a "non-sequitor"?

    It would be like Tom Cook coming out and saying that an open and hackable software platform is better than a closed platform.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    What if the guy doesn't like playing another class? I know some people will play classes they don't like just to top the charts. That's fine. But most people in that situation will just shrug, say "guess the game is not for me" and drop out. I have personally met a lot more people who did that instead of leveling a Warrior if they wanted to tank but their Druid or their Paladin couldn't do it.

    Burning Crusade is considered the "sweet spot" because of a few factors: nostalgia is one of them. The game still being fairly new is another. World of Warcraft was, even back then, known as a game where the people who played it and left were vociferous about what they didn't like about it. It was bleeding subscriptions as always, because it was not very well designed balance or gameplay-wise. But there were a lot of people who had never played it subscribing to balance the numbers and result in a net gain. Now there are fewer people subbing, and so the playerbase drops.

    Player attrition is a natural thing in games. Don't assume World of Warcraft's "decline" is simply because people are unsubbing in droves. It's also because there are fewer people subscribing because the game has both more competition and less people who have not been already exposed to it to sign up again. You can't run a game on veterans, no matter how hard CCP Games tries to say with EVE Online, you need new blood to grow and the MMO market as a whole is declining.
    It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to characterize TBC as "bleeding subscriptions" while defending WoW's current iteration. It seems pretty obvious that the numbers don't add up and you cant just dismiss that with "nostalgia."

    I mean, which isn't to say you can't legitimately enjoy WoW's current iteration more than TBC. I'm just saying if blizzard caters exclusively to people with your mindset their games will go into decline. Which is fine, when the dust settles and WoW has 100k subscribers it will still be around for you to play. I just mourn the degradation of a once great game. I also suspect you'll be playing wildstar or some other game because honestly it seems like people Morello know what you truly want more than you know what you truly want. But hey, if I'm wrong, you can play wow for the next decade.

  19. #139
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    Frankly, even if I didn't fancy TBC all that much, I think he is right. Not all content is for everyone, it shouldn't be that way, and while giving some bosses a few new abilities is exclusive, it doesn't feel that way. Part of what drove me and a lot of players in Vanilla was looking up to these mighty raiders, it drove us to become better, even if we might never reach our goals. What's the point in becoming better when you've already beaten the last boss? Yes, there's different difficulties, but we all saw how well that worked with Diablo 3, I have no intentions of doing the same thing over and over while pretending it's new content, because it isn't.

    I like MoP, it's my favorite expansion thus far, but no expansion has or will be perfect, and the reason I'm finding it hard to play these days is because I feel like I've done what I can with raids currently, I've only cleared LFR yes, but what's the point in doing the same thing over and over? Ever since Wrath there's been nothing to strive after, and while I admit that the content was too exclusive in Vanilla and even TBC's endgame, I don't think that dumping the game down at such a rapid turn as they did in Wrath was the right thing to do.

    Morello is an intelligent guy, I admire him even if I don't like what LoL has become. However, that's still only what he is, an intelligent guy, but even if he's just that, I still agree with him.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    What? He says that exclusive content is good game design. He is the lead content designer for a game without any exclusive content.

    How is pointing out his actions being different from his words a "non-sequitor"?

    It would be like Tom Cook coming out and saying that an open and hackable software platform is better than a closed platform.

    Alright, well, until you come to grips with the basic tenets of logic I don't think there's anything more to discuss.

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